Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:11 pm

Fionordequester wrote:That's still technically defending the comic though, even if that wasn't your intent. It's just that you're now defending it by proxy instead of defending it directly.
If I criticize what a country decides to do with a criminal (for example, apply the death penalty), because I don't agree with that particular action, does that mean I'm defending the criminal or that I'm technically defending him?

Defending implies a motivation to defend, to be on their side, and makes it about the subject instead of what is being opposed... and adding a "technically" doesn't really help much with that implication... So, no, obviously it doesn't mean that. What it actually means is simply that I don't agree with that particular action. Period. Any other extrapolation or conclusion is off the mark and a poor assumption.

In very much the same way, if I don't agree with a particular criticism or bashing of this particular comic and point it out, what it means is simply that I don't agree with a particular criticism or bashing of this particular comic. Period. Saying that I'm defending it or that I'm technically defending implies the wrong thing and is off the mark.
mfwlegend3 wrote:I view rereboy as more of an apologist than anything. This isn't an insult, by the way. I respect it.
It's exactly like I said above... If I criticize what a country decides to do with a criminal (for example, apply the death penalty), because I don't agree with that particular action, does that mean I'm an apologist for the criminal?

The answer is still "obviously it doesn't mean that", for the same reasons.
Last edited by rereboy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by coola » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:32 pm

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It seems like in this special, Nail doesn't have trouble controlling Ginyu body, like Goku did in original story, now i really wonder, if Ginyu from this universe, who kept switching bodies until he end up in Cold's body, is Nail?
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:38 pm

coola wrote: It seems like in this special, Nail doesn't have trouble controlling Ginyu body, like Goku did in original story, now i really wonder, if Ginyu from this universe, who kept switching bodies until he end up in Cold's body, is Nail?
Even if Nail-in-Ginyu's-body can control just 50% of that body, he would be more powerful than his opponent with 100% control over the other body.

What I got from the original manga is that only Ginyu can switch bodies, not his victims. so Nail wouldn't be able to.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Rubens » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:42 pm

Considering Ginyu's (in Nails body) position planted in the top of that building, heavily wounded, with Nail (in Ginyu's body) preparing to dive towards the latter, which reminds me of the original story with Vegeta charging towards Ginyu (in Goku's body) when he was lying on the ground, leads me to believe that the result will be similar - Ginyu (in Nail's body) will try to switch bodies and proceed to... bring closure to Nail.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by testing223 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:08 am

rereboy wrote:
coola wrote: It seems like in this special, Nail doesn't have trouble controlling Ginyu body, like Goku did in original story, now i really wonder, if Ginyu from this universe, who kept switching bodies until he end up in Cold's body, is Nail?
Even if Nail-in-Ginyu's-body can control just 50% of that body, he would be more powerful than his opponent with 100% control over the other body.

What I got from the original manga is that only Ginyu can switch bodies, not his victims. so Nail wouldn't be able to.
Nail was the best of the best of the Nameks; don't discount his ability to learn really fast. It wouldn't be out of character or break canon for Nail to figure out Ginyu's technique on the fly. I mean, the guy was the guardian of the leader of the Namekian people; he's gotta be pretty smart and strong.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:17 am

rereboy wrote:If I criticize what a country decides to do with a criminal (for example, apply the death penalty), because I don't agree with that particular action, does that mean I'm defending the criminal or that I'm technically defending him?
That means you're technically defending him, yes; regardless of whether or not you mean it. And unlike the Death Penalty, webcomics aren't something that people generally get really passionate about unless they have strong feelings for it's quality. If they think it stinks, the troublemakers will roar about how awful it is. And if someone who REALLY likes the webcomic hears such criticisms, and they're not afraid of making themselves heard, their behavior will generally look a lot like what you've been doing for...years, I think? Months? Forgot how long you've been here.

Anyway, the sort of person who doesn't care about the comic enough to want to defend it...isn't typically the kind of person that would respond to every single bit of criticism anyone has ever posted in this thread. Not saying that you're lying, mind you; I'm saying that your behavior is highly unusual for someone who claims to not be defending the comic. Therefore; people are bound to get the wrong idea.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:25 am

Fionordequester wrote:
That means you're technically defending him, yes; regardless of whether or not you mean it.
Like I said, you are just making the issue about the subject (DBM) instead of what I'm actually opposing (exaggerated and unfair criticism and bashing).

And I can literally make an example of how erroneous that implication is regarding pretty much every issue:

- Someone says a certain book is a "pile of garbage, the worst ever". If someone dares to point out that that criticism is clearly exaggerated and is bashing, then he's technically defending the book or an apologist for the book, and not just someone opposing the exaggerated criticism. In short, instead of the issue being strictly about the criticism and being for or against it, now it becomes also an issue of the "defending" of being an "apologist" for the book.

- Someone addresses a person on the street in a rude way. If someone dares to point out that it was rude, then he's technically defending the person or an apologist for the person, and not just someone opposing the rudeness. In short, instead of the issue being strictly about the rudeness and being for or against it, now it becomes also an issue of the "defending" of being an "apologist" for the person.

- Someone attacks a woman who had an abortion because of it. If someone dares to point out that he shouldn't attack the woman, then he's technically defending the person and her abortion or an apologist for the person and the abortion, and not just someone opposing the attack. In short, instead of the issue being strictly about the attack and being for or against it, now it becomes also an issue of the "defending" of being an "apologist" for the person and the abortion.

Those terms carry implication and make the issue about things that shouldn't be the issue.
Fionordequester wrote:And unlike the Death Penalty, webcomics aren't something that people generally get really passionate about unless they have strong feelings for it's quality.

If they think it stinks, the troublemakers will roar about how awful it is. And if someone who REALLY likes the webcomic hears such criticisms, and they're not afraid of making themselves heard, their behavior will generally look a lot like what you've been doing for...years, I think? Months? Forgot how long you've been here.

Anyway, the sort of person who doesn't care about the comic enough to want to defend it...isn't typically the kind of person that would respond to every single bit of criticism anyone has ever posted in this thread.
Honestly, what you said is just a pile of assumptions. The issue here is that I don't really like exaggerated criticism, unfairness and bashing and I will speak out against it. The fact that I speak often about it here is because I usually check the topic when I visit the forum and because, unfortunately, exaggerated criticism and bashing pop up very often in this topic. Nothing more, nothing else. Just like in the examples I gave, it's not about the subjects, it's about what I'm trying to oppose. You are free to assume whatever you like beyond that but you will just be off the mark like you were with all those assumptions.
Fionordequester wrote:Not saying that you're lying, mind you; I'm saying that your behavior is highly unusual for someone who claims to not be defending the comic. Therefore; people are bound to get the wrong idea.
Not my problem at all. I've explained my thoughts more than once and I've explained in detail the sort of implications that terms like "defend" and "apologist" carry, how they muddle the issues, and how they are off the mark. I can't control what other think or want to think.
testing223 wrote:
Nail was the best of the best of the Nameks; don't discount his ability to learn really fast. It wouldn't be out of character or break canon for Nail to figure out Ginyu's technique on the fly. I mean, the guy was the guardian of the leader of the Namekian people; he's gotta be pretty smart and strong.
Nowhere in the manga was it demonstrated that Nail had an extraordinary ability to learn and copy techniques. However, it was demonstrated in the manga that Goku had a had an extraordinary ability to learn and copy techniques and he didn't replicate Ginyu's technique in the manga.

To me, Nail being able to mimic Ginyu's technique would be out of nowhere and I don't like the notion.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Noah » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:38 pm

So Nail doesn't care about recovering his old body? :roll:
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:28 pm

rereboy wrote: Like I said, you are just making the issue about the subject (DBM) instead of what I'm actually opposing (exaggerated and unfair criticism and bashing).

And I can literally make an example of how erroneous that implication is regarding pretty much every issue:[The terms I listed in my response all] carry implication and make the issue about things that shouldn't be the issue.


Ok, but again, most people don't get upset about hyperbolic statements. In fact, such statements are typically used to emphasize a point, when one doesn't have all the time in the world to lay out their thoughts as precisely as possible; and I don't think that's always a bad thing.

So when they DO meet someone that cares that much about the wrongs of hyperbole, they're going to attribute your behavior to something else. Very few people feel that strongly about hyperbole, but a LOT of people feel strongly about the piece of media they consume; therefore, the natural tendency is to assume that you must feel strongly about this comic.
rereboy wrote:Honestly, what you said is just a pile of assumptions. The issue here is that I don't really like exaggerated criticism, unfairness and bashing and I will speak out against it. The fact that I speak often about it here is because I usually check the topic when I visit the forum and because, unfortunately, exaggerated criticism and bashing pop up very often in this topic. Nothing more, nothing else. Just like in the examples I gave, it's not about the subjects, it's about what I'm trying to oppose. You are free to assume whatever you like beyond that but you will just be off the mark like you were with all those assumptions.


Ok, but, do you really think this is the best way to go about it? After all these years, have you ever gotten ANY results doing what you're doing now? Has anyone here ever changed their attitude because of something you said? I'm assuming not; because it's like you said...
rereboy wrote:I can't control what other[sic] think or want to think.


I mean, you can try to change people's minds, but I don't think you'll be truly effective unless you take another tact.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by rereboy » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:52 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
Ok, but again, most people don't get upset about hyperbolic statements. In fact, such statements are typically used to emphasize a point, when one doesn't have all the time in the world to lay out their thoughts as precisely as possible; and I don't think that's always a bad thing.

So when they DO meet someone that cares that much about the wrongs of hyperbole, they're going to attribute your behavior to something else. Very few people feel that strongly about hyperbole, but a LOT of people feel strongly about the piece of media they consume; therefore, the natural tendency is to assume that you must feel strongly about this comic.
Like I said, it's not my problem what people assume or think. My concern is to state what I think clearly and I've already explained what I think several times.

Ok, but, do you really think this is the best way to go about it?
Yes, the best way to tell people that I don't agree with what they said/did, and to offer a counter-point to what they stated/did in the topic, is to tell them in the topic that I don't agree with what they said/did, and why I think so.

You are once again off the mark if you think I'm trying to force people to act a certain way or think a certain way regarding a fan comic.

People are free to think whatever they want and, at the end of the day, this is all just a subjective exercise and its just a fan comic. If this was about a much more serious issue, like for example attacking women who have done abortions, in that case I would be concerned in trying to actually convince people that it's wrong and that it doesn't make sense, instead of just being against it. But that is not the case with the exaggerated criticism and bashing of a fan comic, which is not nearly as serious and nobody gets hurt because of it.

On the issue of exaggerated criticism and bashing of a fan comic or something similar to that, what I'm concerned about is expressing my opinion, namely that I don't agree with it, offering a counter-point to all the exaggerated criticism and bashing in the topic, and being clear about it. That's it. Whatever others think or want to think is up to them.
After all these years, have you ever gotten ANY results doing what you're doing now? Has anyone here ever changed their attitude because of something you said?
Since the "results" I sought were to express my opinion on how I don't agree with exaggerated criticism and bashing, and to offer a counter-point to that in the topic, yes, I get the "results" I want whenever I do so.
I mean, you can try to change people's minds, but I don't think you'll be truly effective unless you take another tact.
Like I explained above, you are just assuming that I'm trying to change people's opinions, which is not the case.

Honestly, practically everything you think about me and my motivations are just your own assumptions which are off the mark. Maybe your time would be better spent challenging your own assumptions instead of trying to lecture me on something that I'm not even trying to do.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:53 pm

Alright. Then I guess the better question is "what do you get out of it"?

Me personally, I imagine it'd get pretty tiring having to constantly defend your viewpoints against multiple people for years and years. I guess I'm just confused about what you get out of it; because as it stands now, it seems like you go to a lot of hard work while gaining absolutely nothing from it.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by coola » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:03 pm

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ParkerAL » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:32 pm

Okay, I know what's going on. Freeza is going to kill Nail in Ginyu's body, and an injured Ginyu in Nail's body is going to switch with one of Freeza's goons while no one is looking.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:02 pm

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My head hurts. Down is up. Up is left. This...god damn this comic.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Gog » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:11 pm

If King Cold is actually Nail, and not Ginyu then that would be the most tragic development for Nail's character. I really want this to be a thing, I really want this to happen. Also, Nail's face when he's about to deliver the killing blow is simply amazing, he's conflicted about it, and I love how that was conveyed through his body language.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by ParkerAL » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:48 pm

Just because Nail thinks he can use Ginyu's technique doesn't mean he can actually switch bodies. He'd probably fail if he tried.
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Augenis wrote:The power level view into the series has trained a significant portion of the fan base into real life stereotypical members of the Freeza empire, where each and every individual is reduced to a floating number above their heads and any sudden changes to said number are met with shock and confusion.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Marco Polo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:56 pm

Would Nail really kill the last the Namek species?

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:14 pm

Gog wrote:If King Cold is actually Nail, and not Ginyu then that would be the most tragic development for Nail's character. I really want this to be a thing, I really want this to happen.
It's not that I don't see the genius behind this, He who fights monsters and all that, but first, What, Nail went on to masquerade himself for so long as villains in Freeza's Army that he forgot who he once was, even forgot this was all for vengeance and when he was finally at a pinnacle of power he A) didn't snap Freeza's neck by catching him off guard or B) change bodies with him and kill Freeza when he's still disoriented? So he goes on and helps Freeza and Cooler rule U8 with an Iron Fist, Then when he learns of the multiverse doesn't speak with the Kais, or any of the good guys see if there's a way to get his old body and perhaps let him live in U10 with the other Namekians in peace, and instead acts like a fucking prick up to fighting Bra and Vegetto? It's stupid. It's stupid as hell.
ParkerAL wrote:Just because Nail thinks he can use Ginyu's technique doesn't mean he can actually switch bodies. He'd probably fail if he tried.
Exactly. Let's say for the sake of conversation that Body Change isn't a mutant ability that only Ginyu can do, and anybody can effectively switch souls. There is nothing to say you can perform such a maneuver after seeing it happen once. It's not a standard ki blast, it's a pretty advanced technique. Kaioken and Spirit Bomb took Goku months to master and he's a prodigy, but Nail can learn Body Change after seeing it only once? It's improbable. It's improbable as hell.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by coola » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:28 am

FoolsGil wrote:
Gog wrote:If King Cold is actually Nail, and not Ginyu then that would be the most tragic development for Nail's character. I really want this to be a thing, I really want this to happen.
It's not that I don't see the genius behind this, He who fights monsters and all that, but first, What, Nail went on to masquerade himself for so long as villains in Freeza's Army that he forgot who he once was, even forgot this was all for vengeance and when he was finally at a pinnacle of power he A) didn't snap Freeza's neck by catching him off guard or B) change bodies with him and kill Freeza when he's still disoriented? So he goes on and helps Freeza and Cooler rule U8 with an Iron Fist, Then when he learns of the multiverse doesn't speak with the Kais, or any of the good guys see if there's a way to get his old body and perhaps let him live in U10 with the other Namekians in peace, and instead acts like a fucking prick up to fighting Bra and Vegetto? It's stupid. It's stupid as hell.
ParkerAL wrote:Just because Nail thinks he can use Ginyu's technique doesn't mean he can actually switch bodies. He'd probably fail if he tried.
That's not uncommon, remember Megas XLR? (Why there was no 3rd season? I really hope Adult Swim will one day get rights and make continuation, like with Samurai Jack) Similar thing happened with Coop and Kiva in alternative dimension, they beat bad guys, and Coop become bad guy himself, Kiva followed him, and also became villain, forgetting her original goal
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:11 pm

coola wrote:
That's not uncommon, remember Megas XLR? (Why there was no 3rd season? I really hope Adult Swim will one day get rights and make continuation, like with Samurai Jack) Similar thing happened with Coop and Kiva in alternative dimension, they beat bad guys, and Coop become bad guy himself, Kiva followed him, and also became villain, forgetting her original goal
To be fair, 2/3 of Megas XLR could interpret Coop as a villain. While Nail was the greatest warrior from an all good race of people. And what happened to Megas XLR is what happened to Symbionic Titan: It was written off to save money for taxes. I don't think Megas is even allowed to come back, it's an un-series now.

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