Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

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Flame Dragon
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Flame Dragon » Fri May 23, 2014 8:24 am

You want to really know what a Mary Sue is? Watch the awful Resident Evil movies, Alice is pretty much the best example to teach someone what a Mary Sue is.
Seriously, once you watch that shit, you will know that Bra is completely tame compared to her.
I learned about the trope by watching those shitty movies. I suggest you guys to do the same, these movies are great for teaching the trope.

Good traits for recognizing a Mary Sue is when:
- No character ever wants to contradict the Mary Sue, or say that the Mary Sue is wrong.
- No character other than the Mary Sue can be in the spotlight, or perform a cool/badass feat.
- Every other character istinctively treats the Mary Sue as the only hope, the chosen one or the leader, without reason or any question.
- Even if hit by a mortal attack, he/she will always survive because either he/she has a powerful body, or thanks to plot.
- Attacks that do a lot of damage to normal characters, are useless or weak against the Mary Sue, for no particular reason.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Fri May 23, 2014 8:33 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:A true Mary Sue has no faults, Bra has several. Bra can also be owned by several people still in the tournament.
There's more than one kind of Sue. Sue's evolved beyond the staple of each one being super perfect. And being weaker than like 5 guys is not a fault. It is something a writer would say is a flaw to state 'My character is not a Sue.' Also being a bitch is not really considered a fault but writers would use for their argument of 'not a Sue'.

Either way, my part of the talk at hand is to say Bra could be a Mary Sue. The Mary Sue quiz could be inconclusive due to every character in DBZ having similar traits, but there are two traits of a Mary Sue no one has said anything about yet-

1) She's an idealized version of her canon(well GT) form
2) Has gotten more focus than everyone else, like Vegetto.

But, like I said, She could be a Sue. Maybe she's not. She's likely not.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by TonyTheTiger » Fri May 23, 2014 11:08 am

FoolsGil wrote: 1) She's an idealized version of her canon(well GT) form.
I wouldn't say she's an "idealized" version. She's a different version. Like, literally different. The two Bras have different fathers. That's not a unique quality in DBM. There are a few different Vegetas, too.
FoolsGil wrote: 2) Has gotten more focus than everyone else, like Vegetto.
Not sure this is true, either. Even if she is getting more time on panel (which I'm not sure of) she isn't "focused on" in the sense that her story is given priority. In fact, she's not gotten much development at all aside from a special chapter and a few demonstrations of her power. And that could be said for a lot of the competitors.
FoolsGil wrote:There's more than one kind of Sue. Sue's evolved beyond the staple of each one being super perfect. And being weaker than like 5 guys is not a fault. It is something a writer would say is a flaw to state 'My character is not a Sue.' Also being a bitch is not really considered a fault but writers would use for their argument of 'not a Sue'.
I take issue with the definition being stretched to incorporate such a wide range of possibilities. Because then everyone is a Mary Sue. Goku is a Mary Sue. Batman is a Mary Sue. Sherlock Holmes is a Mary Sue. It degenerates into a catch-all term for "protagonist."

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Fri May 23, 2014 11:33 am

TonyTheTiger wrote: I take issue with the definition being stretched to incorporate such a wide range of possibilities. Because then everyone is a Mary Sue. Goku is a Mary Sue. Batman is a Mary Sue. Sherlock Holmes is a Mary Sue. It degenerates into a catch-all term for "protagonist."
That seems like a slippery slope argument to me. You can easily widen it without making everybody / every protagonist a sue.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by coola » Fri May 23, 2014 2:23 pm

Image
That Goten speech got "Ally to good, nightmare to you" vibe
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri May 23, 2014 2:26 pm

Please tell me Asura will be back after this.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by coola » Fri May 23, 2014 2:39 pm

He/she will return. it say so in main page :) "Wednesday the 28th, we begin a new chapter. It's drawn by Asura!"
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Fri May 23, 2014 2:48 pm

Goten really knows how to sell his father. I can see it now: Goku-Hero for Hire!

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri May 23, 2014 2:50 pm

So, first wish will go to them, the second will probably go to Gast, and the third will go to... do we have any other good guys that desperately need a wish?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by TonyTheTiger » Fri May 23, 2014 3:02 pm

Saiga wrote:
TonyTheTiger wrote: I take issue with the definition being stretched to incorporate such a wide range of possibilities. Because then everyone is a Mary Sue. Goku is a Mary Sue. Batman is a Mary Sue. Sherlock Holmes is a Mary Sue. It degenerates into a catch-all term for "protagonist."
That seems like a slippery slope argument to me. You can easily widen it without making everybody / every protagonist a sue.
But when you widen it you do end up making everybody a Sue. Take that test with Goku. Take it with Batman. They all come up as dangerously Mary Sue. That's because the test misses the point that the definition is conditional. A character's attributes alone don't make a Mary Sue. A character's attributes in relation to the rest of the story is what matters. A character could be the last of his kind, loved by all, and the most powerful being on Earth but still wouldn't be a Mary Sue if their existence doesn't come at the expense of other characters or the story. (Interestingly, in Goku's case it does come at the expense of other characters but most people don't call him a Mary Sue).

Besides, lets say you widen the definition and start catching more characters in the net. Well, some of those characters you catch may not be so bad, right? After all, whether he fits the definition or not, Goku isn't a bad character. He doesn't hurt Dragon Ball or not fit properly, does he? So what's the point then? Just to be able to call someone a Mary Sue even though they don't do any harm? At that point it stops being a criticism and just becomes a descriptor.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Marco Polo » Fri May 23, 2014 3:17 pm

I love how Universe 18 stole Bra's thunder.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Malik_DBNA » Fri May 23, 2014 3:28 pm

TonyTheTiger wrote: That seems like a slippery slope argument to me. You can easily widen it without making everybody / every protagonist a sue.
But when you widen it you do end up making everybody a Sue. Take that test with Goku. Take it with Batman. They all come up as dangerously Mary Sue. That's because the test misses the point that the definition is conditional. A character's attributes alone don't make a Mary Sue. A character's attributes in relation to the rest of the story is what matters. A character could be the last of his kind, loved by all, and the most powerful being on Earth but still wouldn't be a Mary Sue if their existence doesn't come at the expense of other characters or the story. (Interestingly, in Goku's case it does come at the expense of other characters but most people don't call him a Mary Sue).

Besides, lets say you widen the definition and start catching more characters in the net. Well, some of those characters you catch may not be so bad, right? After all, whether he fits the definition or not, Goku isn't a bad character. He doesn't hurt Dragon Ball or not fit properly, does he? So what's the point then? Just to be able to call someone a Mary Sue even though they don't do any harm? At that point it stops being a criticism and just becomes a descriptor.[/quote]

That's a very good way to describe it. It always is a case of attributes + scenario + effect on the story = X. In most anime/manga a main character, by attributes alone, can almost always be considered a mary sue. They often are regarded as the last/only hope, they tend to be the most powerful, they are capable of learning techniques/abilities that no one else could, they have abilities/techniques/attributes that make them wholly unique from the others, they are often the deciding factor in the most important battles, they rarely if ever die or cannot be killed, etc etc etc. Guys like Goku, Alucard, Ichigo, Naruto, Sasuke, etc etc all fit these attributes. But going by the scenarios those particular characters are in and their effects on the story, the picture becomes more clear.

I also agree with an earlier statement that a mary sue has become a catch-all phrase for people when they come across a character they don't like. I remember in particular one person called my character Rigor a mary sue based solely on his hair and relation to Vegeta.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri May 23, 2014 3:37 pm

"He's a hero in all situations..."

:lol:
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Fri May 23, 2014 6:58 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, first wish will go to them, the second will probably go to Gast, and the third will go to... do we have any other good guys that desperately need a wish?
Mirai Trunks could use a wish.
Marco Polo wrote:I love how Universe 18 stole Bra's thunder.
If Bra was more of a diplomat, or hell just nicer, her perceived 'thunder' wouldn't have been stolen. But that's okay, because if she wins the tournament, she'll save the Heliotes out of spite. She's that kind of hero. :lol:

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Kid Buu » Fri May 23, 2014 7:50 pm

TonyTheTiger wrote: But when you widen it you do end up making everybody a Sue. Take that test with Goku. Take it with Batman. They all come up as dangerously Mary Sue. That's because the test misses the point that the definition is conditional. A character's attributes alone don't make a Mary Sue. A character's attributes in relation to the rest of the story is what matters. A character could be the last of his kind, loved by all, and the most powerful being on Earth but still wouldn't be a Mary Sue if their existence doesn't come at the expense of other characters or the story. (Interestingly, in Goku's case it does come at the expense of other characters but most people don't call him a Mary Sue).

Besides, lets say you widen the definition and start catching more characters in the net. Well, some of those characters you catch may not be so bad, right? After all, whether he fits the definition or not, Goku isn't a bad character. He doesn't hurt Dragon Ball or not fit properly, does he? So what's the point then? Just to be able to call someone a Mary Sue even though they don't do any harm? At that point it stops being a criticism and just becomes a descriptor.
Although it's not Goku I see people call a Mary Sue, it's either Gohan or Trunks who are mostly criticized for being Mary Sues.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri May 23, 2014 8:00 pm

Is there any characters on DBM that you wish were in it? I would kinda like to see how Metal Coola would have work in DBM.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by FoolsGil » Fri May 23, 2014 8:04 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Is there any characters on DBM that you wish were in it? I would kinda like to see how Metal Coola would have work in DBM.
Tuffle defeated Saiyans Universe would be interesting, even if the Tuffles did not participate.

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri May 23, 2014 8:38 pm

I wonder how GT characters would have fit in DBM. There could be a universe for the Machine Mutants, Bebi and Super Xi Ying Long.
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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by dbzfan7 » Fri May 23, 2014 9:19 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:"He's a hero in all situations..."

:lol:
"The hero who risks everyone's safety for a good fight, and puts the blame of stopping Boo on the next generation...truly a hero."

Man Goten's speech sucked. That's nearly Great Saiyaman levels of cheese, and like someone else said, reminiscent of "Ally to good".
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

Post by Saiga » Fri May 23, 2014 10:20 pm

TonyTheTiger wrote:
Saiga wrote:
TonyTheTiger wrote: I take issue with the definition being stretched to incorporate such a wide range of possibilities. Because then everyone is a Mary Sue. Goku is a Mary Sue. Batman is a Mary Sue. Sherlock Holmes is a Mary Sue. It degenerates into a catch-all term for "protagonist."
That seems like a slippery slope argument to me. You can easily widen it without making everybody / every protagonist a sue.
But when you widen it you do end up making everybody a Sue. Take that test with Goku. Take it with Batman. They all come up as dangerously Mary Sue. That's because the test misses the point that the definition is conditional. A character's attributes alone don't make a Mary Sue. A character's attributes in relation to the rest of the story is what matters. A character could be the last of his kind, loved by all, and the most powerful being on Earth but still wouldn't be a Mary Sue if their existence doesn't come at the expense of other characters or the story. (Interestingly, in Goku's case it does come at the expense of other characters but most people don't call him a Mary Sue).
I'm not talking about that tests - those tests usually don't work mostly because they completely miss context which is crucial to identifying Sues. I'm just talking about using different definitions for different situations/types of Sue, because not every Sue is the same.
Besides, lets say you widen the definition and start catching more characters in the net. Well, some of those characters you catch may not be so bad, right? After all, whether he fits the definition or not, Goku isn't a bad character. He doesn't hurt Dragon Ball or not fit properly, does he? So what's the point then? Just to be able to call someone a Mary Sue even though they don't do any harm? At that point it stops being a criticism and just becomes a descriptor.
Who says widening it at all means catching Goku? It's not a matter of "go with the strictest definition possible or everyone is a sue" - you can be a little looser than that without catching non-Sues in it. Obviously you can widen it enough to make it meaningless and a lot of people do but there is a difference between those two extremes.

The point of expanding the definition has nothing to do with being able to call non-Mary Sues sues - it's to call actual Mary Sues what they are, without them being disqualified by something super strict and utterly irrelevant. It's recognising the the oldest definition is flawed in its strictness and there are many characters who fit the spirit of the Mary Sue without necessarily having all the traits.

Sure there are some people who will call anything a Sue, but that's not an argument against broadening it because those people usually aren't sticking to any consistent definition. And on the flip side, there are people who refuse to let anything be identified as a Sue and say it's impossible to exist.
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