Why Doesn't Anyone Notice Goku's Character Development in the Cell arc?

[TheUltimateVegito]

His decision to stay dead at the end clearly showed huge character growth/development. It showed he grew to believe he's a danger to earth especially because of the Androids. Him Saying Gohan is more reliable than him shows that he also believed his Saiyan nature was dangerous too which is significant because it showed how his development in the Saiyan - Frieza arc changed him. Also, the fact that he trained Gohan to become a Super Saiyan after recovering from the heart virus showed that after the whole Android 19 incident he began to care more for the future/next generation which explained why he wanted to train Goten and Trunks in the Buu arc.

It puzzles me how no one notices this and think he didn't develop in the Cell arc.

[lancerman]

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

[ABED]

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

The senzu wasn't the risk. The risk came earlier when he allowed Gero to complete the cyborgs to begin with. And he did use the RST to get stronger. The reason he didn't go in longer, if you don't recall, is because it's hard on the body. He didn't put the world in danger to have a fight with Vegeta. That was a retcon. He intended to defeat Vegeta.

I will give you the stuff about helping Gohan control Super Saiyan 2. Goku didn't keep it from Gohan for good reasons. Toriyama did it because he wanted to keep it as a reveal for the audience. I can't think of any organic in-story reason why Goku would keep it from Gohan.

I don't think Goku develops in the Cell and Buu arcs. He tries to pass the torch, but it goes back to him with no lessons learned.

[GamerSkull]

It doesn't particularly matter what Goku says or what the reasoning for some of his decisions are.

To me, Goku doesn't act like he's developed at all afterwards. So either there was no progression... or there was a little regression.

And since I'm a big fan of the character... it pains me.

[Whatever]

Because he has not any,his characters is also too incosistent in those arcs,especially in the Buu arc,it shows the worst of Toriyama's writing,which is characters acting according to the plot and story wants to go instead of being in character.

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

The senzu wasn't the risk. The risk came earlier when he allowed Gero to complete the cyborgs to begin with. And he did use the RST to get stronger. The reason he didn't go in longer, if you don't recall, is because it's hard on the body. He didn't put the world in danger to have a fight with Vegeta. That was a retcon. He intended to defeat Vegeta.

I will give you the stuff about helping Gohan control Super Saiyan 2. Goku didn't keep it from Gohan for good reasons. Toriyama did it because he wanted to keep it as a reveal for the audience. I can't think of any organic in-story reason why Goku would keep it from Gohan.

I don't think Goku develops in the Cell and Buu arcs. He tries to pass the torch, but it goes back to him with no lessons learned.

So Goku wakes up after Vegeta is dead,says he cannot beat Buu,then goes to the lookout and tells Piccolo about the fusion dance that its too bad Gohan and Vegeta are dead because he intended to fuse with them to beat Buu.
Then Goku pulls ssj3 out his ass and does not finish Buu for whatever reason,returns to to the lookout and Piccolo confirms he could beat Buu then Goku sprouts out of nowhere that he wants the next generation to handle it since they cannot rely on a dead person.
Now its a retcon after the other,what Goku says contradicts his earlier actions and statements,he also becomes a hypocrite for causing the problem and then leaving it to others before coming back later in the saga to contradict his own actions again.

Whatever it is a retcon or not does not matter since the end result is what we got and the end result is Goku messing around with Vegeta,being half responsible for releasing Buu,then going 'its your problem now guys so i won't even bother' before changing his mind again.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Wow, that was an EPIC post. I cant believe you just joined last year!

[lancerman]

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

The senzu wasn't the risk. The risk came earlier when he allowed Gero to complete the cyborgs to begin with. And he did use the RST to get stronger. The reason he didn't go in longer, if you don't recall, is because it's hard on the body. He didn't put the world in danger to have a fight with Vegeta. That was a retcon. He intended to defeat Vegeta.

I will give you the stuff about helping Gohan control Super Saiyan 2. Goku didn't keep it from Gohan for good reasons. Toriyama did it because he wanted to keep it as a reveal for the audience. I can't think of any organic in-story reason why Goku would keep it from Gohan.

I don't think Goku develops in the Cell and Buu arcs. He tries to pass the torch, but it goes back to him with no lessons learned.

Well there were a lot of risks. The senzu isn't the worst one, but he had no clue if and when Gohan would go off, giving Cell the senzu just stacked the deck against Gohan and Cell could have easily just finished him off. I was more reckless.

Yes he did let Gero complete the Cyborgs instead of searching for them. And they had Dragon Balls so they could have at any time used the Dragon to wish to know Gero's location.

Yes he used the ROSAT to get stronger once. He could have used it again. I get it was hard on the body, but the fact is he could have given him and Gohan every advantage possible. The fact that Gohan was soooo close to achieving SSJ2, Goku could have got that out of him in the ROSAT in another years time. Heck we know Goku got it in the otherworld in that 7 year time period. You can't tell me spending a year sparring with a SSJ2 wouldn't have at least made him much stronger. Either way there was nothing to lose trying to get Gohan to acclimate and effectively use the form better. Like even just trying to get him to be able to access it at will and not go into a crazy blood lust so that he could finish Cell off quick. My point is there were benefits to using an extra year in the room than not and just hoping for the best at the Cell Games.

Yes I know he intended to defeat Vegeta, it was still entering into a pointless fight. A fight he could have ended early with SSJ3 if he wanted.

And more egregiously, he easily could have wiped out Boo on Earth with SSJ3. He flatout says he could but wanted the kids to do it.

I just think there's so much contradictory evidence before and after and far too many risks taken on his behalf concerning the safety of the planet, that the idea of him staying dead to make Earth safer rings hollow.

[nato25]

Dont know how different the original z dialogue is if at all, but in the kai subs Goku says hr supposedly could of killed buu amidst a bunch of sentences with him saying how hes constantly underestimated buu's power.

I don't see how he could have defeated buu with his regeneration powers.

I agree with you TC I think it was a wise decision and showed development but I dont think it's that simple as others have pointed out.

[Vijay]

I think Goku's "growth" in Cell Arc was phenomenal. Its beyond words, second only to his growth in Saiyan Arc/Boo Arc

1. Goku realized his disadvantage @ Cyborgs & Cell.

2. Proposed surpassing limits of Super Saiyan to even his arch-nemesis for the sake of safer Chikyuu

3. Anime filler portrayed Goku's special treatment for helping Gohan unlocking his SSJ state

4. Noticed flaws in ASSJ & USSJ forms, hence proposed MSSJ/FPSSJ state as ultimate form

5. Admitted his inferiority against Perfect Cell, recruited Dende as future Kami-Sama which revived DragonBalls & even collected all 7 single-handedly

6. Battled Cell, sacrificed himself & gave the final push for Gohan finishin Cell once & for all

7. Chose to stay in Afterlife to keep Earth safe while keep training to push himself beyond limits

Going even by the standard of anime/cartoon show, I think Goku's growth is extraordinary. Toriyama may have intended Goku to be simplest lead protagonist, but he added various layers to Goku's characterization along with Masako Nozawa's soulful portrayal gave an iconic character. Whatever dude does is magical brah!

I can add why I feel his Saiyan/Boo Arc self is splendid as well, but guess I'll do it later

[DiegoBrando]

Uhm... what?

[ABED]

Cell couldn't have EASILY finished Gohan off. Goku was so sure of Gohan's strength, and he was right. What in the fight leads you to think this? None of Cell's attacks leave that much damage on Gohan even before Gohan turns SS2.

He could have used it again. I get it was hard on the body, but the fact is he could have given him and Gohan every advantage possible.

You say that you understand, but then show that you don't. It was hard on the body in that they couldn't make much gains, and it doesn't give them the ability to recover quickly. Even in DB world, the body needs time to rest. Muten Roshi makes that point when they are training for the 21st Budokai. It's like in the real world where you can't just lift and lift and lift weights. You need time for muscles to recover. In other world he had SEVEN years and a much more durable body.

Vijay, those aren't growth. Goku's always been a great tactician as well as willing to give his life to stop the bad guy.

[Michsi]

I'm going to have to agree with the opinion that his decision to stay dead feels indeed a little hollow. You could conjecture that his misstep earlier with Cell, and him misunderstanding Gohan so profoundly, made him feel a little guilty and think the world and his family would be better off without him, but nothing in the story had ever suggested he was capable of this type of regard and mindfulness. He is also so unnaturally cheery about the whole thing that it just strikes me as flippant.
A fan theory of mine is that he was secretly afraid of a peaceful life on earth. Ever since Radditz showed up, his life had been one major fight after the other, and when he wasn't in a battle, he was preparing for one. With Cell/Androids now gone, there was nothing left to look forward to.

[Doctor.]

He tries to pass the torch, but it goes back to him with no lessons learned.

What about Oob? I think the lesson was that he can't force the transition like he tried with Gohan and Goten.

[ABED]

He doesn't misunderstand Gohan. Christ, people seems to dismiss his pep talk right before Gohan fights Cell where he tells Gohan that if he wants to be a scholar, he has to first defeat Cell. He knows Gohan doesn't love fighting. You guys always take Piccolo's words as gospel.

He tries to pass the torch, but it goes back to him with no lessons learned.

What about Oob? I think the lesson was that he can't force the transition like he tried with Gohan and Goten.

Fair enough, but even then, that's more of an afterthought. Goku's biggest desire is to fight someone strong, not to pass the torch.

[Doctor.]

Fair enough, but even then, that's more of an afterthought. Goku's biggest desire is to fight someone strong, not to pass the torch.

Sure, that may be his biggest desire but it doesn't mean it's the only one, considering how the first thing he says to Oob after saying he'll train him is "You'll protect the Earth if something happens to me."

[Super_Divine_Genki]

I don't really know about his development, but I think that his characterization is top notch throughout the entire arc, easily one of my favorite "Goku's" in DB. I liked him admitting how selfish that he'd always been after Gohan failed to end Cell quickly. Him opting to stay dead I'm a bit mixed on. I just chalk it up to him taking responsibility for his mis-judgings and for letting the Cell situation to get out of control. Him being jolly about staying dead I guess could be attributed to him wanting all of his friends to know that everything will be alright and not to express sadness/regrets. Goku had faith that Gohan would learn from his mistakes and become the ultimate defender of the Earth. With those two being first and foremost, he then set his sights on meeting the Afterlife's strongest guys.

[ulisa]

I think Goku’s development is at its best during the Cell arc. While yes, he isn’t perfect, I think his faith in Gohan is well placed especially with how the previous arcs have gone and I personally love that it’s Goku who has the utmost faith in his child, even beyond Piccolo. Personally, I don’t think Goku misjudged Gohan too much, given what the preceding episodes had built up.

My issue is that I think the way Gohan was handled in the Cell Games doesn’t line up with his previous development. That’s why the Cell Games are a bit all over the place. It would have made more sense to me, if they’d touched on Gohan realizing some of the depth of his power in the time chamber and being frightened by it and that being what drove him to not want to go all out. The anime slips in a small scene where Gohan begins to go SSJ2 in the time chamber and I believe that would have been a good point to build on that.

As it is, it seems to come out of nowhere. I think this point has been debated to death though—some think it’s OOC, some don’t and honestly, I think that has a large amount of influence over how you view the Cell arc’s plot points. So for me, I see that as the issue and not necessarily Goku but I can see why someone that views it from the others angle might think otherwise.

I think Goku’s biggest error was not realizing how little faith Gohan had in his own abilities. That’s where the crux of the issue lies. To Gohan, Goku is still like a god; it’s “Dad” how can anyone be stronger than Dad, let alone me? If he’d dealt with that, we might have gotten a very different outcome.

That aside, for me what sells Goku’s development, aside from his sacrifice (which is likely partially selfless and partially not) is that he has gone from a martial artist to a teacher in this arc. You really don’t realize how good you are at something until you try to teach it and I think Gohan learning and then surpassing his father is a perfect bookend to that journey.

I also am biased in that I love that they build on Goku’s struggle to teach Gohan because it conflicts with his desire to protect him. I cannot recall the exact phrasing but I believe Gohan mentions that Piccolo remarked that Goku would not be a good teacher because he’s too soft on him.

This is a situation that really is unique to Goku’s parental position and is one of the main reasons I don’t see Toriyama’s “Saiyans don’t form family bonds” as really reflected well in the earlier arcs. It feels more like an angle he came up with later and wants to retroactively apply than something the story really supports, at least in my view.

Goku seems much wiser in this arc than in the others and it feels like a combination of everything that has come before, ultimately ending with him passing the torch to his child and feeling confident in his ability to handle it. I personally will always think the Cell Games would have made th best finisher. Not that I dislike the other sagas—I like them—but this just seemed like such a better ending point in terms of plot and characterization.

[TheUltimateVegito]

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

There was build up to it in the Cell arc:

Goku's anger in witnessing Android 20 kill people.

Goku looking out of a window and contemplating (Only in the manga) after losing to 19, which then lead to Goku focusing more on Gohan (He stated he wanted Gohan to go SSJ during time in RoSat)

Goku opting to make Dende guardian to get new Dragon Balls after knowing Cell killed people after Goku even had Cell agree not to kill people before the tournament.

And finally, Goku's shocked expression after Piccolo had a go at him for misunderstanding Gohan which almost led to Gohan's failure.

[GamerSkull]

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

There was build up to it in the Cell arc:

Goku's anger in witnessing Android 20 kill people.

Goku looking out of a window and contemplating (Only in the manga) after losing to 19, which then lead to Goku focusing more on Gohan (He stated he wanted Gohan to go SSJ during time in RoSat)

Goku opting to make Dende guardian to get new Dragon Balls after knowing Cell killed people after Goku even had Cell agree not to kill people before the tournament.

And finally, Goku's shocked expression after Piccolo had a go at him for misunderstanding Gohan which almost led to Gohan's failure.

He could have prevented people from dying if the group sought out Gero in the first place. His desire for a good fight is what put the world in danger.

He’s a danger to Earth simply because he isn’t pragmatic. Him deciding to stay away isn’t exactly helping this problem, especially since he’s the one that has to return to save the day again, after basically playing a part in putting it in jeopardy yet again by not quickly eliminating Vegeta by going SSJ3... or killing Majin Buu when he could.

Then again, most DB characters in general never seem to go for the obvious out.

[TheUltimateVegito]

To me it kinda feels hollow. There's no real build up to it. Just seems like a way to make a reason for Goku to stay dead. He was so concerned about the safety of the planet that he risked everything in a gambit with Gohan including giving Cell a Senzu bean and not even trying to use the ROSAT to see if he could get strong enough to beat Cell or help Gohan reach and control Super Saiyan 2.

Then the next time we see Goku he puts the world in danger again to have his fight with Vegeta AND then lets Boo live so he can see if the boys can take care of him instead.

Nothing Goku does before or after makes me think he would willingly stay dead for the sake of make the Earth a little safer. I think it would be soooooo much more believable if Goku just said "hey guys, I want to stay here and train with some of the strong guys in the afterlife to see how far I can go".

There was build up to it in the Cell arc:

Goku's anger in witnessing Android 20 kill people.

Goku looking out of a window and contemplating (Only in the manga) after losing to 19, which then lead to Goku focusing more on Gohan (He stated he wanted Gohan to go SSJ during time in RoSat)

Goku opting to make Dende guardian to get new Dragon Balls after knowing Cell killed people after Goku even had Cell agree not to kill people before the tournament.

And finally, Goku's shocked expression after Piccolo had a go at him for misunderstanding Gohan which almost led to Gohan's failure.

He could have prevented people from dying if the group sought out Gero in the first place. His desire for a good fight is what put the world in danger.

He’s a danger to Earth simply because he isn’t pragmatic. Him deciding to stay away isn’t exactly helping this problem, especially since he’s the one that has to return to save the day again, after basically playing a part in putting it in jeopardy yet again by not quickly eliminating Vegeta by going SSJ3... or killing Majin Buu when he could.

Then again, most DB characters in general never seem to go for the obvious out.

That's the point. Goku knew his Saiyan nature can make him do stuff he doesn't and does want to do simultaneously. He knew he couldn't stop his Saiyan nature from putting the earth in danger and decided to stay dead because of it.

He pretty much said it himself. He said he stayed dead because Gohan is more reliable meaning he doesn't have the negatives of Saiyan nature holding him back and he also stayed dead to minimise the chance of another villain causing trouble due to being after Goku.

Also when you think about it Piccolo jr., the Saiyans, Frieza and especially the Androids were a result of Goku. The Androids and Frieza had the biggest impact on him because the Android were created sorely to kill Goku and Frieza had an empire which could lead to another Dr. Gero (Someone wanting revenge on Goku). So from Goku's perspective there's a high chance that staying dead can stop another threat from happening.