Things that grind your gears

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Tavarano
Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:45 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Tavarano » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:19 am

ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:How does it not make sense for their characters?

It's like they didn't have self-preservation instinct, they know what happened when Nappa and Vegeta arrived the last time so basic logic dictates that they would not want to go through the same thing again. I assume that their attitude has been impacted by them all learning that death is quite meaningless, it becomes more obvious in Buu arc where death is a casual thing.
It's not they don't have an instinct for self preservation, it's that they love combat. That's always been the case. It has nothing to do with death being meaningless and everything to do with their goal - to get stronger and fight strong opponents that challenge them. I don't see how that goes against their characterization. This isn't new. They experienced world ending stakes prior to the Saiyans.

Don't you think it's weird that Chaozu's sacrificial death in saiyan arc ends up being a very intense and touching moment for Tenshinhan, but then he has no problem letting androids come potentially damning his dear friend to the same fate again? I doubt that they would be so lax about threats to their lives without dragon balls and afterlife, when Daimao was threatening to kill Tenshinhan if Goku moved, Goku was initially fine letting him die because he could ressurect him later, but changed his mind once Daimao told him that he killed Shenron, dragon balls and nature of death in DB universe do affect decision making of the characters.

User avatar
zDBZ
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby zDBZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 am

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:It's like they didn't have self-preservation instinct, they know what happened when Nappa and Vegeta arrived the last time so basic logic dictates that they would not want to go through the same thing again. I assume that their attitude has been impacted by them all learning that death is quite meaningless, it becomes more obvious in Buu arc where death is a casual thing.
It's not they don't have an instinct for self preservation, it's that they love combat. That's always been the case. It has nothing to do with death being meaningless and everything to do with their goal - to get stronger and fight strong opponents that challenge them. I don't see how that goes against their characterization. This isn't new. They experienced world ending stakes prior to the Saiyans.

Don't you think it's weird that Chaozu's sacrificial death in saiyan arc ends up being a very intense and touching moment for Tenshinhan, but then he has no problem letting androids come potentially damning his dear friend to the same fate again? I doubt that they would be so lax about threats to their lives without dragon balls and afterlife, when Daimao was threatening to kill Tenshinhan if Goku moved, Goku was initially fine letting him die because he could ressurect him later, but changed his mind once Daimao told him that he killed Shenron, dragon balls and nature of death in DB universe do affect decision making of the characters.

And there's the fact that, after the plot no longer requires them to prioritize getting a good fight over stopping the Androids before they're built, they become proactive and try to stop threats before they can emerge later on in the saga.

MasenkoHA wrote:
zDBZ wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Goku is a guy who constantly wants to find stronger and stronger opponents to test his own strength and improve. himself. How do all those example not make sense for his character?


ABED wrote:How does it not make sense for their characters?


At this point, I might as well source the thing I've been referring to this whole time.



Yeah his argument hinges on Goku and friends are good people who do what’s right so therefore they’re not capable of short sightedness or hubris. Again Goku is a guy who will spare a genocidal psychopath who was an accessory in the death of friends for a rematch or allowed a genocidial tyrant who killed his best friend to power up to 100 percent at full power to have a proper fight. And Goku’s motivation has ALWAYS been to test his strength by seeking stronger opponents. Nothing about wanting to fight these Cyborgs it out of character for Goku

He also use Tenshinhan not wanting to use the dragon balls to stop Piccolo but then being like okay yes to prove his point. But all this shows is the Z fighters are suspectibe to being short sighted until the situation forces them to seeing how bad things really are.

Goku desiring fights to test his skills isn't compatible with him being a basically good person. It's after the revelation of his Saiyan heritage that his desire for a fight starts to supersede larger concerns, and only well into the Buu saga (and now Super) does that become a consistent trait. Another - valid - DBD criticism is that, after a certain point, Goku becomes more likely to behave in whatever way the plot requires than in a way consistent with a character. Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2432
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Kunzait_83 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:48 am

zDBZ wrote:It's after the revelation of his Saiyan heritage that his desire for a fight starts to supersede larger concerns, and only well into the Buu saga (and now Super) does that become a consistent trait.


Goku vs Piccolo Ma Junior has Goku risking the fate of the world constantly for the sake of his tournament victory against Piccolo. Marking down the Saiya-jin arc as the beginning of this is flat out factually wrong on its face: it was there back in original DB as well.

zDBZ wrote:Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.


You don't recall correctly. Goku clearly states why he lets Freeza power up to full strength: he says flat out that he wants to beat Freeza at his absolute best as part of his revenge for Freeza killing Kuririn.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread

Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.


Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.


Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
zDBZ
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby zDBZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:24 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
zDBZ wrote:It's after the revelation of his Saiyan heritage that his desire for a fight starts to supersede larger concerns, and only well into the Buu saga (and now Super) does that become a consistent trait.


Goku vs Piccolo Ma Junior has Goku risking the fate of the world constantly for the sake of his tournament victory against Piccolo. Marking down the Saiya-jin arc as the beginning of this is flat out factually wrong on its face: it was there back in original DB as well.

zDBZ wrote:Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.


You don't recall correctly. Goku clearly states why he lets Freeza power up to full strength: he says flat out that he wants to beat Freeza at his absolute best as part of his revenge for Freeza killing Kuririn.

The Saiyan saga, and his sparing of Vegeta, is the first time Goku so nakedly jeopardizes the world for the sake of a rematch with a villain. Sparing Piccolo had a "let's fight again" component, but there were other factors at play - Kami and the Dragon Balls. But the larger point was that it's after the revelation of Goku's heritage that his character makes a noticeable shift, not that there's a singular incident.

And the issue isn't Goku having a motive for letting Freeza power up; it's the lack of motive for him changing his mind after first keeping up a fight with Freeza before the latter has a chance to do the power up, which he does - in the anime, at least. If I've confused that with the manga, then my bad.

EDIT: I did not confuse the two. In the manga, Goku declares he won't let Freeza power up, and then changes his mind in the next chapter. That isn't explained, though his motive once his mind changes is.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Regular
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 am

zDBZ wrote:[
Goku desiring fights to test his skills isn't compatible with him being a basically good person


And yet his desire to test his skills and him being a good-natured person have been part of his character since the very beginning.

. Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.


But wanting to test his strength by fighting someone at their max is consistent with his character

User avatar
Majin Buu
Regular
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Majin Buu » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:36 pm

It personally annoys me whenever merchandise uses the term "Majin Buu" for only Fat Buu while Super Buu and Kid Buu get those form specific designations. If they're going to use "Super Buu" and "Kid Buu", I would prefer that they use "Fat Buu" for the fat one since they're all "Majin Buu", not just the fat one.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5773
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Gaffer Tape » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:53 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Yeah his argument hinges on Goku and friends are good people who do what’s right so therefore they’re not capable of short sightedness or hubris.


Ehhh... I hesitate to get involved in a debate I'm not a part of for no other reason than one of my works is being used as a crux of someone's argument. However, I do find this a misleading and reductive analysis of what I say in that video. And, hey, it's difficult to pare down a 22-minute video into a single-sentence summary. But that ain't it.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 12/4/18!)
Current Episode: The Retcon of Spirit and Time - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 10!

User avatar
zDBZ
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby zDBZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:40 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zDBZ wrote:[
Goku desiring fights to test his skills isn't compatible with him being a basically good person


And yet his desire to test his skills and him being a good-natured person have been part of his character since the very beginning.

I...never denied that.


But wanting to test his strength by fighting someone at their max is consistent with his character

The inconsistency is in his abrupt, unexplained change of mind, not in the fact he wants to do that, though if it weren't for the Super Saiyan state exacerbating Goku's aggression, rage, and battle lust, I would say that it would be a questionable decision, if not inconsistent.

User avatar
Dragon Ball Gus
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:51 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Dragon Ball Gus » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:42 pm

The fact that the Universe 6 Saiyans didn't appear in Dragon Ball Super Broly. I mean dude, this movie is all about Saiyans! And considering they're (obviously) Saiyans, why couldn't they appear?! Look, I know a lot of Gohan fans are upset that he didn't get to appear in the movie, and I didn't mind it because I figured that this movie was focusing on full blooded Saiyans, and he's a Half Saiyan, so if he didn't appear in the movie, I wouldn't mind it. The Universe 6 Saiyans, however, are full blooded Saiyans. So it would've made sense for them to appear in the movie. But NOPE! They aren't. And that truly grinds my gears.
Merry Christmas! :angel:

User avatar
Shaddy
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 426
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Shaddy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:17 pm

The Broly movie is about the history of the Universe 7 saiyans, and their downfall and change as a result of Frieza and the like, and how all that reflects on Broly as a person who's entered the game so late and in such a different manner. Universe 6's only real similarity with U7 is that it does indeed have Saiyans and versions of Broly and Freeza. They're not tied into the actual Broly, Bardock, King Vegeta or Frieza at all for the most part, so including them wouldn't really do anything to enhance that theme.

Plus if they did, they'd probably contrast how things went with Frost in their universe, and I don't like it when the series tries to treat Frost as anything other than a joke.
Frost sucks

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 14082
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby ABED » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:18 pm

The inconsistency is in his abrupt, unexplained change of mind, not in the fact he wants to do that, though if it weren't for the Super Saiyan state exacerbating Goku's aggression, rage, and battle lust, I would say that it would be a questionable decision, if not inconsistent.
It's not inconsistent. At that point, Goku's in complete control of his emotions and the battle. Hell, he even has control of the transformation and can turn it off and on at will.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4354
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Things that grind your gears

Postby Dbzfan94 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:39 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:The fact that the Universe 6 Saiyans didn't appear in Dragon Ball Super Broly. I mean dude, this movie is all about Saiyans! And considering they're (obviously) Saiyans, why couldn't they appear?! Look, I know a lot of Gohan fans are upset that he didn't get to appear in the movie, and I didn't mind it because I figured that this movie was focusing on full blooded Saiyans, and he's a Half Saiyan, so if he didn't appear in the movie, I wouldn't mind it. The Universe 6 Saiyans, however, are full blooded Saiyans. So it would've made sense for them to appear in the movie. But NOPE! They aren't. And that truly grinds my gears.


Why would they? They have no business or connection to the story of U7 or the U7 Saiyans.


Return to “General Franchise Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests