DB relationships

[Darkbloom]

Oh, yes, I totally agree on that point. (Rather, those points.) I feel like I mentioned something related earlier but it might have been part of a long post that I shortened. XD I hate it when (in your example of Goku and Vegeta, which I think is the most common one) the two of them go to happy OOC land, their wives die/do something awful to justify their leaving/etc./etc., all to get the characters together. Then again, I'm a crazy person who would rather have a long, unresolved, ambivalent relationship deal. Plus, such [awful] fics seem to imply that the only possible relationship is a clean-cut, monogamous one, and that the characters must be either gay or straight.

In short, thanks for pointing out all of the most annoying things about bad yaoi fics. (Not to say some similar things don't happen in other, "straight" fics; god knows the success rate for writing Vegeta in-character [with anybody, Bulma included] is alarmingly low. Or maybe I just have a really pessimistic view of Vegeta/am way too picky.) I think these things are probably what gives yaoi fics such a bad name.

All that being said, I used to write a lot of Goku/Vegeta and (if I were ever so bold to go back and read fanfiction I wrote five years ago ewwww) and I'm sure I was guilty to some degree of at least one of those things in at least one of the stories I wrote. But no more! That's for sure. @_@ (No more being guilty of that stuff, I mean -- not no more Goku and Vegeta.)

It's great to find a yaoi fan who agrees with me. Maybe if I had read some good yaoi fics in the early days of my DB fan fiction fandom, I wouldn't be so against them. Goku and Vegeta is better than the barrage of Vegeta/Goku/Whoever and some 13 year old's Mary Sue. But then anything is better than that.

I also agree with the difficulty of writing Vegeta in-character. He's either too nice and mushy, or too... distant and Vegetaish. That doesn't make any sense but you get what I mean(I hope).

Random odd question to anyone reading: There's a lot of Goku/Vegeta stories out there. Has anyone ever read any good Bulma/Chichi fics that aren't just "lulz!lesbiansrhawt!"? It seems that there is a severe lack of them out there. I may have to write my own.

[Eire]

Yaoi's fandom seems to be more active than yuri's at all. Yuri fics not based on series considered as yuri seems to be pretty rare at all.

[Darkbloom]

Yeah. It's probably got something to do with that most-fan-fiction-writers-are-girls thing. Fan fiction is a self-gratification phenomenon and since most girls aren't attracted to girl-on-girl... Yeah.

On the other hand, at least 50% of Sailor Moon fan fiction is yuri. Sailor Moon has less male characters than Dragon Ball has females. Maybe it's got more to do with the male/female ratio of the series characters. Although Sailor Moon has canon gay characters, so I guess that isn't really a valid comparison.

[ShiningMoon]

It's great to find a yaoi fan who agrees with me. Maybe if I had read some good yaoi fics in the early days of my DB fan fiction fandom, I wouldn't be so against them. Goku and Vegeta is better than the barrage of Vegeta/Goku/Whoever and some 13 year old's Mary Sue. But then anything is better than that.

I also agree with the difficulty of writing Vegeta in-character. He's either too nice and mushy, or too... distant and Vegetaish. That doesn't make any sense but you get what I mean(I hope).

Random odd question to anyone reading: There's a lot of Goku/Vegeta stories out there. Has anyone ever read any good Bulma/Chichi fics that aren't just "lulz!lesbiansrhawt!"? It seems that there is a severe lack of them out there. I may have to write my own.

Yeah, I was lucky to run across some halfway decent yaoi fics pretty early on (but I probably also had lower standards earlier on). With my constant effort to improve my writing/critiquing skills, I guess nowadays I'm a bit more of a fanfic snob. I mean, I still read some kind of "eh, that's stretching it a bit" fics but -- knowing full well they are such and just to pass the time while I look for something better. Plus, if they're fics-in-progress, I can know that my review and critique can help that writer make it better. (Er, not to make myself sound like I'm a super talented critic or something.)
Ugh, putting Goku/Vegeta/whoever with Mary-Sues. Ew.

I do get what you mean. I think most people err toward too mushy, but some also don't seem to give him quite enough credit (depending on when in the timeline we're talking about here; I obviously mean later) about his capacity for love (or something like it). I keep thinking that I might have to write (gasp) something that centers around him and Bulma (and Trunks) during the years after Cell. I've got some pretty nifty ideas, I think...and it seems like surprisingly few authors want to tackle this time period.

If you write a Bulma/Chi-Chi fic that actually makes sense and has a meaningful relationship between them, I would probably love you forever. This came up earlier in the thread, but I have been on a[n admittedly not very active] quest for some actually not just "for the lulz/because it's hawt" lesbian DBZ fanfiction. Please let me know if you decide to take up such a project! (I wanted something like that in the one I'm working on now; it ended up happening with an OC. She almost ended up with Bulma, kind of [though many extenuating circumstances], in a really, really ambivalent relationship, but uh, it got messed up in multiple ways that probably turned out better for the both of them.)

And yeah, I think it has to do with the male:female ratio, at least in part. And probably what you said, with most girls not really being "into" that. (I am one -- and I am -- but I'm also bi, so uh, I guess the "seeing two of the people of the sex you're interested in" deal breaks down there. Guess it could also be a reason for why I have such an interest in seeing some actual serious DBZ fics with lesbian pairings.) Even if I wasn't into it, though, I would like to say that would be interested no matter what if it was something that was argued feasibly and tastefully. Another female/female pairing that I think one could make work is Bra/Pan. I think one of my friends is planning on writing a fic with them...

[Velasa]

Personally I don't make much fuss about "this is het" or "this is slash"- really I just look at things as if the relationship makes sense, is well written and developed or not. There's well written and bad written stuff in every category.

And as to the issue of yuri... I've never liked the female characters in the show enough to want to read a fic exclusively about them. Damn I'm making short posts in here o_O

[ShiningMoon]

Personally I don't make much fuss about "this is het" or "this is slash"- really I just look at things as if the relationship makes sense, is well written and developed or not. There's well written and bad written stuff in every category.

Yeah, I think that's what I failed to adequately actually communicate about my approach this whole time I've been posting. XD

And as to the issue of yuri... I've never liked the female characters in the show enough to want to read a fic exclusively about them. Damn I'm making short posts in here o_O

Ah, I can kind of see that angle. (Plus we don't really ever get the chance to know them well enough to like them, what with how little we're in there.) I think if the writing was good enough, the female characters could be fleshed out in a way that sort of makes up for how little of them we see in the series and they would probably then be a bit more interesting/likable. I've recently experienced a surge of Bulma fandom, haha. I think it's from having her in more of my fanfiction lately. I feel like I "know" her better now; I don't feel like I really cared about her that much one way or the other before...
Also, I feel like I'm whoring around this thread way too much.

[Rocketman]

Also, I feel like I'm whoring

And that's why you feel you know Bulma better.

*rimshot*

[Thanos]

Freeza + Zarbon
Mr. Popo + Appule


etc.

[Eire]

Freeza + Zarbon

Yaoi fangirls love this couple so much that it seems to be their canon:P

[Brakus]

I'm more of a bara fan myself ("Bara" from "Barazoku" which used to be a semi-prominent gay magazine years ago in Japan), and I like a decently-written fanfic or doujinshi of DBZ characters, especially when these authors/artists actualy have an idea as to how gay people make love. Most of the doujinshi I've seen of Goku/Vegeta (and to a smaller degree, Gohan/Trunks) have been drawn quite realistically IMO, or at least much closer to Toriyama's style. None of the painfully obvious yaoization of characters - making them tall and thin, more triangular face instead of square, oversized eyes, etc.

I dislike it too when fanfic authors decide to kill off the female partners just so that they can get the two guys together. What's to say that these characters can't have a polyamorous relationship? Personally, I've always thought Vegeta secretly had the hots for Goku since the end of Season 1. Why else would he have dumped and killed Nappa?

For a squishy subject like tackling m/m relationships, canon or not, I'm glad this board is pretty mature enough to have a decent discussion about them.

[ShiningMoon]

I do like it when the artists keep things in a realistic style, or one similar to Toriyama's. (Related: Has anybody here read Sky World?) I don't like it when people try to make my guys all...not muscley. XD (I mean, toned down a bit, sure, if you're taking the realistic angle.) But I guess what bothers me most (as far as what I perceive to be common or at least stereotypical practices in a lot of yaoi writing/doujinshi) is when people decide that characters must strictly adhere to one preset role (and all the behaviors that supposedly follow from it) and may not deviate from it at all. Blegh. But then, I haven't read a lot of doujin (not knowing a lick of Japanese), so I dunno if that's actually what a lot of people do.

What's to say that these characters can't have a polyamorous relationship? Personally, I've always thought Vegeta secretly had the hots for Goku since the end of Season 1. Why else would he have dumped and killed Nappa?

Heh, I agree.
Anyway, I kind of have this thing for the thought of Vegeta being all, "'Bulma or Kakarrot?' What are you asking me, exactly? That I should have to choose? I'm a prince!" (Complete with Bulma rolling eyes in background, heh heh. Because Vegeta seems to like to use "I am the Saiyajin prince!" as an excuse for a lot of his behavior...)

[Kid Buu]

That said, I pity anyone who read Agony in Pink. Even just skimming through it was powerful. >.<

I've read that...and the remake with Kat.

Anyone like Blonde Lunch/Vegeta?

[chaosakita]

Yaoi's fandom seems to be more active than yuri's at all. Yuri fics not based on series considered as yuri seems to be pretty rare at all.

Well, first of all, there are a lot more guys than girls. Really, there's only like...four girls, and they aren't really portrayed that attractively. Also, what sort of interactions do the girls have? I can't imagine it being that appealing to anyone.

As for my thoughts on yaoi...

I love yaoi, but eh, I don't think DBZ is that romantic or even emotional of a series to begin with. I can appreciate the canon pairings, but Toriyama isn't necessarily the best writer of them. Goku/Vegeta is kinda cute, but Goku is also so non-romantic, so ehhhh. Trunks/Goten is great though, although in-series, they are DEFINITELY too young for anything.

[Darkbloom]

Yeah, I was lucky to run across some halfway decent yaoi fics pretty early on (but I probably also had lower standards earlier on). With my constant effort to improve my writing/critiquing skills, I guess nowadays I'm a bit more of a fanfic snob. I mean, I still read some kind of "eh, that's stretching it a bit" fics but -- knowing full well they are such and just to pass the time while I look for something better. Plus, if they're fics-in-progress, I can know that my review and critique can help that writer make it better. (Er, not to make myself sound like I'm a super talented critic or something.)
Ugh, putting Goku/Vegeta/whoever with Mary-Sues. Ew.

I do get what you mean. I think most people err toward too mushy, but some also don't seem to give him quite enough credit (depending on when in the timeline we're talking about here; I obviously mean later) about his capacity for love (or something like it). I keep thinking that I might have to write (gasp) something that centers around him and Bulma (and Trunks) during the years after Cell. I've got some pretty nifty ideas, I think...and it seems like surprisingly few authors want to tackle this time period.

If you write a Bulma/Chi-Chi fic that actually makes sense and has a meaningful relationship between them, I would probably love you forever. This came up earlier in the thread, but I have been on a[n admittedly not very active] quest for some actually not just "for the lulz/because it's hawt" lesbian DBZ fanfiction. Please let me know if you decide to take up such a project! (I wanted something like that in the one I'm working on now; it ended up happening with an OC. She almost ended up with Bulma, kind of [though many extenuating circumstances], in a really, really ambivalent relationship, but uh, it got messed up in multiple ways that probably turned out better for the both of them.)

And yeah, I think it has to do with the male:female ratio, at least in part. And probably what you said, with most girls not really being "into" that. (I am one -- and I am -- but I'm also bi, so uh, I guess the "seeing two of the people of the sex you're interested in" deal breaks down there. Guess it could also be a reason for why I have such an interest in seeing some actual serious DBZ fics with lesbian pairings.) Even if I wasn't into it, though, I would like to say that would be interested no matter what if it was something that was argued feasibly and tastefully. Another female/female pairing that I think one could make work is Bra/Pan. I think one of my friends is planning on writing a fic with them...

After a night of sleep deprivation, I finally got into an insane enough state to actually start planning a Bulma/ChiChi fan fiction. Unfortunately, the only way I could do it was to make it 10+ chapters, with at least 3 chapters of build-up before the yuri stuff actually begins. It's set just after the Cell Games, because I don't think they talked to each other much before that. I don't know when I could do it though. Normally I start on this stuff right away, but as I am going on vacation in Europe for 10 days on Friday, it'll probably have to wait a few weeks.

I think I'll probably experiment with a cute oneshot before I commit to anything though.

Oh and I totally support the idea of Bulma and Vegeta in the years after Cell. I think it has a lot more substance than the traditional three years fan fiction, where I don't think they did anything together other than conceiving Trunks.

[ShiningMoon]

After a night of sleep deprivation, I finally got into an insane enough state to actually start planning a Bulma/ChiChi fan fiction. Unfortunately, the only way I could do it was to make it 10+ chapters, with at least 3 chapters of build-up before the yuri stuff actually begins. It's set just after the Cell Games, because I don't think they talked to each other much before that. I don't know when I could do it though. Normally I start on this stuff right away, but as I am going on vacation in Europe for 10 days on Friday, it'll probably have to wait a few weeks.

I think I'll probably experiment with a cute oneshot before I commit to anything though.

Oh and I totally support the idea of Bulma and Vegeta in the years after Cell. I think it has a lot more substance than the traditional three years fan fiction, where I don't think they did anything together other than conceiving Trunks.

Ooh! Well, I think longer is better, and spending at least 3 chapters of build-up would be most advisable in almost any pairing situation, I think. (Unless you can pull off the "oops, we jumped into it too quickly and now we have to fix it" type of deal.)
I can understand how you'd not want to start something when you're gonna be gone for a stretch of time. Maybe you could do the one-shot beforehand? (Insert cute pleading face here.) In any case, quite excited to see what you've got planned. If this thread dies between now and when you start the story, please PM me the link?

Thanks! Yes, I've been thinking that that time gap is probably when pretty much all of Vegeta's character development actually happens. I'm pretty excited, though I've gotta get through this other story I'm doing first. It's the third of a three-part thingy, so I'm trying to make it good...the finale, and all.

[Brakus]

As for my thoughts on yaoi...

I love yaoi, but eh, I don't think DBZ is that romantic or even emotional of a series to begin with. I can appreciate the canon pairings, but Toriyama isn't necessarily the best writer of them. Goku/Vegeta is kinda cute, but Goku is also so non-romantic, so ehhhh.

So Goku might be saying something innocent, and Vegeta has the dirty mind. (Case in point, the aforementioned "I hope that you can pull it off" line.)

I've always thought of DBZ as much more "bara" than "yaoi", considering most of the relationships -- both het and slash -- don't really get all that mushy much. And there's less of the panty-flashing fan service in Z that the original Dragon Ball had. Z is by far the strictly more fighting anime than DB is, so there really isn't much room for romance, on or off screen.

I would think Goku has some semblance of "like", which can lead to "LIKE-like", which could lead to "love", as it did with Chi-Chi (or so it seemed, after Dragon Ball ended). After his initial fight with Vegeta, going with the original story that Goku was so excited for Vegeta after fighting him that he wants to fight him again someday, I can see some kind of symbiotic relationship that developed throughout the series, more than the "mutual admiration" lets on in the series. Their relationship comes off to me differently than Goku's relationship with Chi-Chi.

As an almost-aside, I'd love to see how Vegeta's death at the hands of Frieza -- and Goku's visions of Vegeta (and King Vegeta and Bardock) during the Frieza fight -- will be handled on the English dub side of Kai when they get to it.

Trunks/Goten is great though, although in-series, they are DEFINITELY too young for anything.

Well, not until the very VERY end of DBZ, and even then, they might still be underage.

[caejones]

Trunks/Goten is great though, although in-series, they are DEFINITELY too young for anything.

Well, not until the very VERY end of DBZ, and even then, they might still be underage.

Goten is 17 at the end, and Trunks is 18.
Trunks is legal just about anywhere (keep in mind the distinctions between DB Earth and our own), and Goten is legal in the majority of the world, including Japan and I think some regions of the US...

[ShiningMoon]

Goten is 17 at the end, and Trunks is 18.
Trunks is legal just about anywhere (keep in mind the distinctions between DB Earth and our own), and Goten is legal in the majority of the world, including Japan and I think some regions of the US...

I know that where I am (Nebraska, US) 17 is legal as long as the person they're having sex with is within...two years of them? Something like that? Kind of weird because in my state the age of majority 19 [instead of 18, which is what it is in either all the other states or all but one other state] (god knows why).
But yeah, I think in most parts of the world Trunks and Goten at the end of Z would be legal? In any case there's always the magical trick of "jump to one year later"...especially if you're doing fanfiction or something, and want to be all certain about it.