GT Perfect Files on Stuff and Whatnot

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:19 am

He transformed during his fight with Baby!! Since he cut his hair after the battle with Majin Boo, his upturned golden hair is now even more suited towards fighting!!
What?! I never thought the GT Perfect Files was as bad as GT itself. :P Anyway, great work as usual, Herms.

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Ahiru77 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:51 am

HA, USSJ only for the chosen.

*glove smack*....take that Vegeta. :lol:

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Savage68 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:12 am

Nazi Cola wrote:Wait, if it says Goku didn't use SSj2, then wtf was that form he used against Rilldo?
A very powered-up SSJ1.

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:59 am

Savage68 wrote:
Nazi Cola wrote:Wait, if it says Goku didn't use SSj2, then wtf was that form he used against Rilldo?
A very powered-up SSJ1.
Yeah, I noticed that, and it seems odd. They do Goku's hair right for SSj2 in that one scene, but then the guidebook don't label it as such (Maybe it slipped past them or something?). But at the same time, this is one of the few sources to actually recognize and confirm that lightning bolts are a trademark of Super Saiyan 2.

GT is... weird.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:01 pm

Nazi Cola wrote:Wait, if it says Goku didn't use SSj2, then wtf was that form he used against Rilldo?
He did go through SSJ2 before fighting Bebi the second time. So Goku did infact use SSJ2 in GT and probably used it against Rilldo.

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:17 pm

What point was this released in the series? Was it before Super #17 arc started?
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:20 pm

Kingdom Heartless wrote:What point was this released in the series? Was it before Super #17 arc started?
Yeah. Herms mentioned that the book gives "previews" of the Super 17 and Shadow Dragons arcs. It also lists Goku as the only Super Saiyan 4 because Vegeta and Gogeta hadn't displayed it yet.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Savage68 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:07 pm

I forgot about Goku's rematch with Baby. He very clearly went through every cycle of Super Saiyan that he had access to there, so I can't think of any way to rationalize the Perfect Files' entry about SSJ2 being absent from GT... If the stark aura / hair change ( w/ lightning) didn't suffice to establish the middle ground between SSJ1 and SSJ3, I don't know what would. He did sorta "skip" past it on his way to SSJ3, so I guess the PFs don't really contradict what was shown.

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Bardo117 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:29 pm

It probably slipped their mind with SSJ2 Goku.

a lot of people tend to forget about the little in-between villains in GT.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Nazi Cola » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:16 pm

It's weird that here they recognize the lightning in the aura for SSj2, yet the movies and anime seem to contradict that.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Travis Touchdown » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:06 pm

Kaboom wrote: this is one of the few sources to actually recognize and confirm that lightning bolts are a trademark of Super Saiyan 2.
So those little electrical storms Goten and Trunks displayed in GT means they went SSJ2, right?

But... I'm confused. It confirms sparks are a part of SSJ2, but says Goten and Trunks are only SSJ, yet they both display sparks in GT.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:56 pm

Travis Touchdown wrote:So those little electrical storms Goten and Trunks displayed in GT means they went SSJ2, right?
But... I'm confused. It confirms sparks are a part of SSJ2, but says Goten and Trunks are only SSJ, yet they both display sparks in GT.
Evidently the GT Perfect Files paid more attention to the original manga than the spin-off series they were supposed to focus on.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Herms » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:13 pm

So I've decided to dedicate this thread to translating more bits from GTPF Vol.1's "World Guide" section, not just the Super Saiyan stuff. Now I've done the part on Baby's transformations. [ ] indicates captions to pictures. Sometimes I'll put descriptions of the pictures in question inside the brackets, but generally I won't bother. The pictures are all of the relevant form of Baby, so they don't need that much explanation.
Shape-Shifting!! The History of Baby’s Transformations!!
Baby, the strongest of enemies, powered up by absorbing the energy of other life-forms and transforming again and again…Here’s all about that!!

1: Baby’s Larval Form
Baby is a parasitic artificial life-form with the cells of King Tsufru!! After the destruction of Planet Plant, he evolved into his larval form while drifting through space!! At the same time, it seems he developed Doctor Mu and had Mu gather power to help him grow!!

[picture of larval Baby from the front] He has practically no fighting abilities in this form.
[from behind] He’s destroyed by Goku and co. in his cultivation pod while his right arm is still incomplete.

2: Baby’s Child Form
Baby escaped from Planet M2!! Afterwards, he infected many innocent people, absorbing their power and growing into this form!! His first full-blown appearance in this form was during the battle on Planet Pital!! He remained in this form up until he infected Vegeta!!

[picture of child Baby without clothes] His right arm is undeveloped. In this form, he absorbs power from the people on Planet Pital!!
[picture of child Baby now in his trademark spandex-like outfit] By the time he reached Earth, he’d grown bigger than Goku!!

[big black text] A mecha life-form who continues to grow!!

3: Vegeta-Baby
This is Baby’s form after he stole Vegeta’s body and transformed!! His general outline and costume is the same as Vegeta’s, but his face and eyes now have lines that make him look mechanical!! Also, the hair on his head isn’t gold, but has instead become silver-ish!!
[ ] His eyes now have the same sort of cross-lines as General Rild!!

4: Super Baby
Super Baby is the final transformed state of Vegeta-Baby!! It has 2 types: Strongest Form 1, where Vegeta’s characteristics still remain, and Strongest Form 2, which resembles Super Saiyan 3. His final technique is the Revenge Death Ball, a mass of evil ki which might be called an evil Genki-Dama!!

Strongest Form 1
His eyes now have a glassy cover, and his hair has gotten longer!! The wings on his shoulders certainly leave an impression!!

Strongest Form 2
His hair has grown even longer than before!! His costume is close to what he wore in the child form!!

[big black text] The peak of all evil!! A demon of revenge who plots universal domination

5: Oozaru Baby
Super Baby transformed into this form after being bathed with 1,000 times the normal amount of Bruits Waves!! As the strongest of warriors, who blends together Tsufru science and Saiya power, his power surpasses even Super Goku 4!! Looking at his golden fur, it seems this ought to be considered a warrior evolved from Super Saiyan!!

[ ] Even after becoming an Oozaru, his costume and hair-style are still the same as his Strongest Form 2!!
Now to catch up on some comments:
Bardo117 wrote:Well, Vegeta was surprised that they could turn Super Saiyan in the first place so Goku being surprised isn't that much of evidence.
Eh...but what do Vegeta's reactions have to do with Goku's? And Goku got to see Trunks and Goten at full power during their Fusion training, but was still shocked that they were able to reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks. And as I mentioned, Gotenks is clearly shown not initially being able to become SSj3, but only gaining the ability while training in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Bussani wrote:Hm, that kind of fits with the Super Exciting Guide's idea of SSJ2 being double SSJ1 and SSJ3 being quadrupedal SSJ2, don't you think?
Yeah...this kinda ties into a theory I have (well, actually I really just stole it from the fansite Outer Z). Some people have argued that a x2 increase is far too small to account for the difference between Cell Games SSj and SSj2 Gohan. In particular, there's Gohan's line right before the final Kamehameha struggle where he says Cell's attack caused him to lose half power, so wouldn't that make him only as powerful as his regular SSj form now? But I'm inclined to think that Cell Games Gohan's power derived in large part from his anger, rather than only his SSj2 transformation. In other words, Gohan gets much more stronger after 16's death than happens in the more normal SSj2 transformation we see in the Boo arc, due to his anger. After all, as Gohan and Goku both say, Goku's big plan to beat Cell relies on the power Gohan gets when he's mad, like we see when he fought Raditz or Freeza. Obviously, at those earlier times Gohan did not reach any new stage of Super Saiyan; he just plain got stronger. So I think what we see at the Cell Games is the same sort of thing, plus a high form of Super Saiyan, with the overall result that Gohan gets super-duper powerful. Something like that anyway.
Kingdom Heartless wrote:What point was this released in the series? Was it before Super #17 arc started?
GT Perfect Files Vol.1 came out on May 24th, 1997, between the first airings on GT episodes 45 and 46 (the Super 17 arc ended in episode 47). So I guess it's not really accurate to describe their brief coverage of Super 17 as a "preview", since all the things they mention would have already aired on TV by the time the book came out. It might have been more of a preview when the staff were actually working on the book though. At any rate, Vol.1 officially only covers up to the end of the Baby arc (its episode guide stops at episode 41, the Tenkaichi Budoukai episode), with Vol.2 covering the Super 17 and evil dragon arcs properly. Vol.1's preview of the evil dragons only notes the basic concept of minus energy and evil dragons, and shows pictures of the evil cigar-smoking Shenlong and the 2-Star Dragon.
Travis Touchdown wrote:So those little electrical storms Goten and Trunks displayed in GT means they went SSJ2, right?
Not necessarily. To be SSj2 you have to have sparks (in the manga at least), but simply having sparks doesn't make you SSj2. Vegetto, for instance, has sparks as he transforms into Super Vegetto, but never displays any afterwards, and is universally labeled as only being a regular Super Saiyan. And then there's Nappa...
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Jaruka » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:53 pm

Herms wrote:
Travis Touchdown wrote:So those little electrical storms Goten and Trunks displayed in GT means they went SSJ2, right?
Not necessarily. To be SSj2 you have to have sparks (in the manga at least), but simply having sparks doesn't make you SSj2. Vegetto, for instance, has sparks as he transforms into Super Vegetto, but never displays any afterwards, and is universally labeled as only being a regular Super Saiyan. And then there's Nappa...
Well, to be fair if you go through some of the later episodes it does seem like Goten, Gohan, Vegeta and Trunks have significant hair growth, I was wondering what you think of this, being the most reliable person (in my eyes) on Dragonball knowledge.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans (and Baby!)

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:51 pm

Yay, information on Baby!! Baby's my favorite of the Dragon Ball GT villains (next to Rild and Mutchi-Muchi...or whatever his name was) so it's always nice learning more about him. For instance, I'm surprised the guidebooks describe Baby-Vegeta's hair as being silver, rather than white. I've always seen his hair as being white, but if it is more of a silver than that sets it apart from the usual gold of Super Saiyan. Baby-Vegeta really is something seperate from Saiyan and Tsufruian. What's more I find it interesting that Super Baby-Vegeta 2 is described as having hair like a Super Saiyan 3. If Baby's power increasing ability was so great that it pushed Vegeta into being a Super Saiyan 3 than it makes sense that he was so much more powerful. Of course, Baby-Vegeta in his first state seemed more than enough for Super Saiyan 3 child Gokû. When Gokû returns later on to fight Baby as a Super Saiyan 3 on Planet Tsufru with a supposedly powered-up Super Saiyan 3, Baby can still easily out perform him.


Speaking of Baby, this translation of the Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files from Curtis Hoffman seemed to suggest more about Baby's Revenge Death Ball.
Akira Toriyama Super Database: Dragon Ball GT -- Perfect File FAQ; [url=http://www.ixp.jp/~curtis/db/dbgtperf.html#t5_tag]Notes About Specific Characters[/url] wrote:Baby
To turn into Super Baby 2, Baby took the energy from his Tsufuru-jin followers. At this point, Super Baby 2 is physically becoming closer to his original form, and is dropping Vejiita's features. Baby's ultimate attack is the Fire Revenge Death Ball. The Fire Revenge Death Ball, and the ordinary Revenge Death Ball are both evil variations of Gokuu's Genki Dama. In Ougon Oozaru form, Baby uses Super Gyarikku-hou, and Revenge Death Ball Final. (Gyarikku sounds close to "garlic", but I haven't seen a definition of this word yet.)
Have you a more specific look at this text? I remember Baby using several different names for the Revenge Death Ball and I was just wondering if there was anything more to it that Hoffman might've missed. Thanks!
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans

Post by Bussani » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:35 pm

Herms wrote:Some people have argued that a x2 increase is far too small to account for the difference between Cell Games SSj and SSj2 Gohan. In particular, there's Gohan's line right before the final Kamehameha struggle where he says Cell's attack caused him to lose half power, so wouldn't that make him only as powerful as his regular SSj form now? But I'm inclined to think that Cell Games Gohan's power derived in large part from his anger, rather than only his SSj2 transformation. In other words, Gohan gets much more stronger after 16's death than happens in the more normal SSj2 transformation we see in the Boo arc, due to his anger. After all, as Gohan and Goku both say, Goku's big plan to beat Cell relies on the power Gohan gets when he's mad, like we see when he fought Raditz or Freeza. Obviously, at those earlier times Gohan did not reach any new stage of Super Saiyan; he just plain got stronger. So I think what we see at the Cell Games is the same sort of thing, plus a high form of Super Saiyan, with the overall result that Gohan gets super-duper powerful. Something like that anyway.
My personal explanation is something along those lines, too. I think something (subconscious reluctance to fight, lack of anger, whatever) was holding Gohan back and that we never really saw his "full power" as a regular Super Saiyan. Even when he reaches SSJ2 it seems implied to me that he could still have been holding back subconsciously until the final attack, where Goku tells him to, you know, stop doing that.

There's some semantics there of course, before anyone jumps on me. Some people consider "full power" to include everything, including the anger, while others think the anger is something to add on top. I'm leaning toward the former in my explanation above, but only because I feel like it's silly to say something like, "it went up to 150%!"
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans (and Baby!)

Post by Herms » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:15 pm

JulieYBM wrote:What's more I find it interesting that Super Baby-Vegeta 2 is described as having hair like a Super Saiyan 3.
Besides the longer hair, I think they largely were pointing out how Baby loses his eyebrows when he reaches that form. Hmmm...and besides SSj3 and Baby, Super 17 had no eyebrows either. In DB eyebrows clearly have some great significance. I'll shave mine off and see if I get any stronger.
Speaking of Baby, this translation of the Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files from Curtis Hoffman seemed to suggest more about Baby's Revenge Death Ball.
[snip]
Have you a more specific look at this text? I remember Baby using several different names for the Revenge Death Ball and I was just wondering if there was anything more to it that Hoffman might've missed. Thanks!
Looks like a summary of Baby's profile on pages 23-25. Crap, I forgot there are two sections in the book that go through Baby's form. This on at the front of the book is mostly the same as the one I translated (its main advantage is color pictures, whereas the one towards the back is in black and white). It uses the names "Super Baby 1" and "Super Baby 2" for what the later section calls Baby's Strongest Form 1 and 2. To reach his Super Baby 1 form, he absorbs the power of all the Saiyans who he's taken over, while to reach Super Baby 2, he gathers energy from all Earthlings. Some other tidbits are that Baby can regenerate as long as a single one of his cells remain, and he seems to already have adult-level intelligence even in his so-called child form. There's really not much more info on Baby's attacks than their names and the thing about the Revenge Death Ball basically being an evil Genki-Dama.
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans (and Baby!)

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:25 pm

Ah, that makes a lot of sense too. Super Baby 2 does work in many ways like Super Saiyan 3 if we consider Ôzaru Baby the Super Saiyan 4 equivalent.

By the way, is the official name merely Ôzaru Baby or is there something more?
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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans (and Baby!)

Post by Kaboom » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:30 pm

I always did subscribe to the idea that Baby-Vegeta's transformations were some sort of twisted, enhanced-by-Baby versions of the Super Saiyan forms. Nice to see something official lend credence to the idea.

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Re: GT Perfect Files on Super Saiyans (and Baby!)

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:39 pm

Kaboom wrote:I always did subscribe to the idea that Baby-Vegeta's transformations were some sort of twisted, enhanced-by-Baby versions of the Super Saiyan forms. Nice to see something official lend credence to the idea.
While I concur, I must say I always pegged Super Saiyan 2 as being tied to Super Baby 2. Now this new bit of information sort of throws that theory out of whack, not that it doesn't make more sense in hindsight. :P Then again, as Herms said, there isn't a direct and official "This is absolutely derived from Super Saiyan 3" so I suppose that in the end...there is no answer!! :shock:
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