Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:03 am

Freeza ends at 28. Cell ends at 35.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:04 am

Freeza ends at 28. Cell ends at 35.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by DemonRin » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:08 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Freeza ends at 28. Cell ends at 35.
That's strange, considering I'm holding volume 34 in my hands right now and reading the Death of Majin Boo... :lol:

I thought I said that in my post...
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:14 am

DemonRin wrote:I thought I said that in my post...
Well... yeah... you did, but the actual numbering is all I know off the top of my head. Viz numbering: Freeza 12, Cell 19. Basically just subtract 16, I guess.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by DemonRin » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:15 am

Ok, just pulled out my books (BIG Box...)
Freeza ends at 22, Cell ends at 28. Mystery solved XP
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:23 am

DemonRin wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:Freeza ends at 28. Cell ends at 35.
That's strange, considering I'm holding volume 34 in my hands right now and reading the Death of Majin Boo... :lol:

I thought I said that in my post...
Gaffer's talking about the tankobon, not the kanzenban.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:27 am

Ohhh. Kanzenban. :oops: I was trying to figure out where the hell a Vegeta fight would fit in Volume 16, and then I remembered that Vegeta's fight with Cell happened in Viz's numbering of DBZ16, so I figured that's what you must have been talking about.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by DemonRin » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:28 am

OOOOOOOH, DUH!

Yeah, I'm looking at my Kanzenban right now. The Son Vs Vegeta Fight starts in vol. 16 and ends in 17.
Freeza ends in 22, and Cell ends in 28. Boo ends in 34 XP

I don't own the tankobon... XP
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:40 am

Glad I could help settle that matter... By the way, Herms, I gave this topic a little plug over on GameFAQs. Hopefully some of those guys actually read this.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Puto » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:53 am

JulieYBM wrote:Episode work, Herms. This guide is going to come in handy so much for me. I really love how in-depth you were, tirelessly so. :)
Innagadadavida wrote:Part of what I hate about One Piece is how meticulously planned out it is. So much so that Oda deliberatly with-holds information and I don't even know what the fuck is happening. What the hell is mantara?
I thought it was explained pretty clearly in the series. 'Mantra' an ability some white sea people have (to varying degrees), seemingly naturally born with it. It gets brought up again later on in the story (around chapter #500-plus, which would be two hundred or so chapters after the Skypiea arc). Without being too spoilerific, just think of it as an obligatory escalation of shônen super-powered technique battles.
It's more like an ability to predict what the opponent is gonna do. It basically allows you to hear your opponent's basic thoughts or something. Ener's mantra is strong enough to cover all of Skypiea, so he can feel whenever anyone betrays him.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Senzu_Bean » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:26 pm

Wonderful read. What a text wall you did in there, Herms. :wink:

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Shishu » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:35 pm

The only one of those I ever really "bought into" was how fan outcry led to Goku being the main character again after the Cell Saga.

I can't remember where I read it (but it was a while ago) that "fans wanted to see Goku again." I checked my old Pojo guide and I couldn't find it, so I probably read it at some defunct fan site.

But yeah, great read. I never really thought much about the sudden plot changes, like Goku and Freeza being alive after Namek blew up, seeing as the show in general is pretty, well, unbelievable. xD

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Lord Exor » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:30 pm

I suppose I didn’t really need to tell you all that stuff about the editors to get you to understand this point, but I kinda like the editors and think they get undue crap from fans for being meddling fools who do nothing but mess up Toriyama’s perfect vision, when in reality one of the only confirmed instances of their interference was in preventing the android arc from climaxing in a confrontation between the Z Warriors and some old geezer.
Geriatric (albeit unsettling) countenance aside, Dr. Gero was undoubtedly the superlative menace when it boils down to sinister intent. Although this is somewhat tangential to the intent of this thread, age should have little bearing on the gravitas or literary quality of an antagonist.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:36 pm

Lord Exor wrote:
I suppose I didn’t really need to tell you all that stuff about the editors to get you to understand this point, but I kinda like the editors and think they get undue crap from fans for being meddling fools who do nothing but mess up Toriyama’s perfect vision, when in reality one of the only confirmed instances of their interference was in preventing the android arc from climaxing in a confrontation between the Z Warriors and some old geezer.
Geriatric (albeit unsettling) countenance aside, Dr. Gero was undoubtedly the superlative menace when it boils down to sinister intent. Although this is somewhat tangential to the intent of this thread, age should have little bearing on the gravitas or literary quality of an antagonist.
Exactly!
Magneto is quite popular, as antagonist isn't he? And he's old as fuck, as well!(well at least in the moveis!!)

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by GS7X7 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 am

Great post!

When analyzing the interviews though, one always has to bear in mind how excessively and over-exaggeratedly polite and indirect the Japanese tend to be. Consider that Toriyama's never publicly criticized GT and has praised it. (I think? It's been years, don't remember fully)

Toriyama's fussing directly at his editor indicates that he must have been super-pissed at him. The guy lorded it over him for so long and now that Toriyama was like a Japanese Stan Lee and not under his thumb he felt freer to give him a piece of his mind. I do think it's plausible that unhappy J fans forced his hand when it came to Gohan and his remark there seems like that trademark Japanese politeness/indirectness.

What were Toriyama's stated reasons for ending DBZ when he did and what's the extent of criticizing he gave GT? Also, his niece/daughter saw Vegeta's moustache and was grossed out by it, which is why it got shaved later. (old interview)
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by CODii » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:14 am

^^^
The problem is that nobody can ever be 100% sure as to what someone's mindset was when they made a statement. All we have to go on is what is written down. Trying to interpret what someone actually meant is irresponsible. Notice that Herms never once says that there is no way any of these rumors could ever possibly be true. Instead what he shows is that these rumors are not supported by any documentation.

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:02 pm

It really makes me wonder how the Androids arc would've turned out if Toriyama's editor hadn't disagreed with practically every idea. I like Cell (especially the horror vibe his first form gave off), but it did look more evident than any of the other arcs that it was controlled. An old geezer and a fat guy didn't cut it, so Toriyama changed them. Nor did two teenage brats, so Toriyama changed it. The editor found Cell's first form ugly, so Toriyama made him transform. Cell's second form was ugly too, so Toriyama made him transform even faster. Sounds like the only time the editor was really happy was when Toriyama drew Perfect Cell. :roll:
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:10 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Sounds like the only time the editor was really happy was when Toriyama drew Perfect Cell. :roll:
To his defense, Perfect Cell was.. well.. Perfect!!

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by BobZ » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:47 pm

Hm, I didn't have time to read the entire post, so I scrolled down to certain bits that I found interesting and that I wanted to see.

I can't believe that the Cell arc was edited that much. What I understood from the interview is that they were joking and not talking that seriously about it. Sure, there might have been edits, but I think Toriyama-sensei had pretty much thought about it to some extent. He did say he was making it up as every chapter was released, but c'mon, the part about Cell and the fact that he needed the Androids to become complete must have been thought of when the character of Cell was first introduced.
I mean, the idea is there. Why would they power him up to the second form and not let him absorb #18? It wouldn't have been interesting. Of course, there were countless of ways they could've stopped him from doing that and it would have been better to have him achieve his perfect form in a different way (not really sure how though), but it was meant to be, in my opinion.

If there indeed have been such heavy edits, I must say Akira Toriyama-sama is truly a genius in making the story so deep without having thought about it much in advance.

Otherwise, Herms, thank you for taking the trouble to write all this. It is all very interesting and I can't wait to go through all of it. :)

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Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:04 pm

BobZ wrote:I can't believe that the Cell arc was edited that much. What I understood from the interview is that they were joking and not talking that seriously about it. Sure, there might have been edits, but I think Toriyama-sensei had pretty much thought about it to some extent. He did say he was making it up as every chapter was released, but c'mon, the part about Cell and the fact that he needed the Androids to become complete must have been thought of when the character of Cell was first introduced.
I mean, the idea is there. Why would they power him up to the second form and not let him absorb #18? It wouldn't have been interesting. Of course, there were countless of ways they could've stopped him from doing that and it would have been better to have him achieve his perfect form in a different way (not really sure how though), but it was meant to be, in my opinion.
Here's what was said in that interivew:
Herms wrote:Akira Toriyama: I liked the initial Cell fine as well.

Fuyuto Takeda: The bug-like one?

Akira Toriyama: But Kondou-san said "He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.", so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.
What I interpret from that is Toriyama liked the design of the initial Cell, but Kondou made him transform, because he thought he looked ugly and wanted his design to change, and the only way to do that was a transformation. I'm not saying Toriyama didn't have it in mind for second form Cell to go to Perfect form, but he said himself that he intended for second-form Cell to play a more "active role", which makes sense with how quick Cell jumped from second form to Perfect form.
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