Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:11 pm

Yeah, the way I see it is that the storyline changes came up in the design stage, not after the chapters themselves were released. Like, Toriyama showed his editor his finished sketch for Cell, he didn't like it but allowed him to use it as long as Toriyama came up with a way to transform it into something he preferred.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 3/4/24!)
Current Episode: A Hero's Clone - Dragon Ball Dissection: Goku's Side Story! Siu Xing Qiu is a Testament to Courage

User avatar
Juan Fra
Newbie
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Juan Fra » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:27 pm

Great read!

Mad props to the OP (Herms). :D

GS7X7
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1109
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:03 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by GS7X7 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:24 pm

What were Toriyama's stated reasons for ending DBZ anyway?


Between making what was probably a huge-assload of money, 10 years of non-stop work, having his editor be a dick during the Cell saga, the rumor of fans getting ultra-pissed at him when he tried to make Gohan the hero (note Herms- that might be another interesting rumor to explore, how fans reacted at the time in Japan when Goku died and Toriyama tried to prop up Gohan), and then having not only the ultra-invincible fusion possibilities but the "resurrect/fix anything/anyone" Dragon Balls as well, maybe he started to run out of ideas on how to keep things interesting, especially since Toei was willing to slug on without him.
Sean Schemmel is THE MAN! :)

Me- "Also, before anyone mentions it, Schemmel's interview was from nearly 15 years ago. He paid a brief visit to Kanzenshuu's forums a few years back and earned legendary respect that cancels out anything he said from that long ago. :D"

User avatar
Chibi Mystic Gohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2877
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: Wakusei Bejeeter

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:57 am

GS7X7 wrote:the rumor of fans getting ultra-pissed at him when he tried to make Gohan the hero (note Herms- that might be another interesting rumor to explore, how fans reacted at the time in Japan when Goku died and Toriyama tried to prop up Gohan)
That's kind of the hard part. The Internet obviously wasn't huge back in the early '90s like it is today, so how can you know what fans were talking about, back then?
君と再会ったとき 子供のころ大切に想っていた景色を思い出したんだ
僕と踊ってくれないか 光と影の Winding Road いまでも彼に夢中なの?

GS7X7
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1109
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:03 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by GS7X7 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:15 am

Talk to Japanese fans online.

Obviously only a handful of us can do that. :lol:

(but not me :| )
Sean Schemmel is THE MAN! :)

Me- "Also, before anyone mentions it, Schemmel's interview was from nearly 15 years ago. He paid a brief visit to Kanzenshuu's forums a few years back and earned legendary respect that cancels out anything he said from that long ago. :D"

User avatar
CODii
Regular
Posts: 617
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:38 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by CODii » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:21 am

GS7X7 wrote:(note Herms- that might be another interesting rumor to explore, how fans reacted at the time in Japan when Goku died and Toriyama tried to prop up Gohan),
He did cover that. It's in the second post under "Toriyama intended Gohan to be the hero of the Boo arc"

GS7X7
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1109
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:03 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by GS7X7 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:30 am

I guess I meant go more in depth specifically in that one area, should have rephrased it better.
Sean Schemmel is THE MAN! :)

Me- "Also, before anyone mentions it, Schemmel's interview was from nearly 15 years ago. He paid a brief visit to Kanzenshuu's forums a few years back and earned legendary respect that cancels out anything he said from that long ago. :D"

User avatar
CODii
Regular
Posts: 617
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:38 pm
Location: New Mexico

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by CODii » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:38 am

In that case I guess I have to agree with Chibi Mystic Gohan on this one. It would be almost impossible to tell what fans were thinking that long ago.

User avatar
Chibi Mystic Gohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2877
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: Wakusei Bejeeter

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:45 am

Especially because a part of the rumor claims that fans were sending in angry letters to Shueisha/Toriyama. Even if we were to discover that some fans sent in a letter, it'd be impossible to find out just how many did.
君と再会ったとき 子供のころ大切に想っていた景色を思い出したんだ
僕と踊ってくれないか 光と影の Winding Road いまでも彼に夢中なの?

User avatar
KillerCory
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:50 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by KillerCory » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:02 pm

Another amazing post by Herms.
Goku: "Look Vegeta! People popcorn!"
Vegeta: "What is he on?"

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10799
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Rocketman » Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:03 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:a) Goku just "happened" to find one of Ginyu's space pods lying around.

b) Goku was shown screaming right as Namek exploded, and being engulfed in the explosion, so how did he have time to grab a space pod?
Also,

c) A cut-in-half Freeza who was so drained he couldn't even fly until Goku lent him some power get blasted by a Super Saiyan into an erupting lava pit and then the whole goddamn planet explodes but HE'S ALIIIVE~

d) Piccolo living, which I think is also influenced by all the times in the US version where a character would take an obviously fatal blow but get a "It's just a flesh wound!" dubbed in.

and the big one

e) Fatty McFat getting to be revived because he was sad and the chain of fix-everything wishes that had never been used before and that completely neuters the entire mood of the series since Raditz landed.

There's nothing really 'wrong' with any single one of these twists. It's that they all happen so close together that gives the impression that Freeza was the end and then it wasn't so he had to quickly slap some shit together to let the story continue.

None of the other arc endings have anywhere near the bullshit the ending of the Freeza arc pulls.

User avatar
Chibi Mystic Gohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2877
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: Wakusei Bejeeter

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:34 pm

Rocketman wrote:c) A cut-in-half Freeza who was so drained he couldn't even fly until Goku lent him some power get blasted by a Super Saiyan into an erupting lava pit and then the whole goddamn planet explodes but HE'S ALIIIVE~
He didn't get thrown into any volcano, in the manga (just a nitpick). In any case, we're already talking about a guy that was implied to be able to survive the explosion of a planet in the first place. Freeza's just the guy that won't die! And we find out that Freeza's alive in, what, two chapters? Toriyama would have to be like "I'm ending the series!" one week, then saying "I'm not ending the series! Guess I'll write fifteen more volumes!!" the next week. Not likely.
Rocketman wrote:d) Piccolo living, which I think is also influenced by all the times in the US version where a character would take an obviously fatal blow but get a "It's just a flesh wound!" dubbed in.
When was it implied that Piccolo was going to die? Goku even told Gohan that Piccolo was still alive, and that he should hurry up and take him home, because he was connected to the Dragon Balls! We're you expecting Piccolo to just die in Gohan's arms while he was carrying him to the ship?
Rocketman wrote:e) Fatty McFat getting to be revived because he was sad and the chain of fix-everything wishes that had never been used before and that completely neuters the entire mood of the series since Raditz landed.
Yeah, Herms already thoroughly debunked that point in the opening post. Did you not read it all? Toriyama introduced the "natural causes" rule for the Grand Elder! It's not like he was writing himself out of a corner or anything, because he wrote himself into that corner in the same chapter! The "natural causes" rule was never mentioned before or after that point!

Frankly, you've got nothin'. Come on, you seriously believe that Toriyama was planning on ending it here? Just because a couple of plot points were "bullshit"?
君と再会ったとき 子供のころ大切に想っていた景色を思い出したんだ
僕と踊ってくれないか 光と影の Winding Road いまでも彼に夢中なの?

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10799
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Rocketman » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:43 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Frankly, you've got nothin'. Come on, you seriously believe that Toriyama was planning on ending it here? Just because a couple of plot points were "bullshit"?
That's not what I was saying. My first post in this thread was about why it's so easy for people to believe that Freeza was the end when there's no proof - because the ending of the Namek arc is so sloppy even compared to the rest of Dragonball's slapdashery that it feels like it was the end, then hastily retconned.

User avatar
Chibi Mystic Gohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2877
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: Wakusei Bejeeter

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:51 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Frankly, you've got nothin'. Come on, you seriously believe that Toriyama was planning on ending it here? Just because a couple of plot points were "bullshit"?
That's not what I was saying. My first post in this thread was about why it's so easy for people to believe that Freeza was the end when there's no proof - because the ending of the Namek arc is so sloppy even compared to the rest of Dragonball's slapdashery that it feels like it was the end, then hastily retconned.
Guess you're right. It took so long for you to reply to me, that I forgot what you had said originally! :D

So, you no longer believe that Freeza was supposed to be the end? Because I've seen you make many of these points yourself, in the past. (And they don't make sense!)
君と再会ったとき 子供のころ大切に想っていた景色を思い出したんだ
僕と踊ってくれないか 光と影の Winding Road いまでも彼に夢中なの?

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10799
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Rocketman » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:07 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:So, you no longer believe that Freeza was supposed to be the end? Because I've seen you make many of these points yourself, in the past. (And they don't make sense!)
Freeza should have been the end.
Freeza would have been the best ending.
The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.

But no, there is no proof that it was supposed to be the end.

User avatar
Chibi Mystic Gohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2877
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: Wakusei Bejeeter

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:13 pm

Rocketman wrote:The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.
Right, even though Herms and I have already debunked all of your complaints, Toriyama was still somehow jumping through hoops to continue the series... :roll:
君と再会ったとき 子供のころ大切に想っていた景色を思い出したんだ
僕と踊ってくれないか 光と影の Winding Road いまでも彼に夢中なの?

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Fox666 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:22 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:So, you no longer believe that Freeza was supposed to be the end? Because I've seen you make many of these points yourself, in the past. (And they don't make sense!)
Freeza should have been the end.
Freeza would have been the best ending.
The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.

But no, there is no proof that it was supposed to be the end.
The series is called "Dragon Ball"... one of the best things about the "Freeza ending" is that the end would be after they end in the planet that originated the dragon balls, with much more powerfull ones.

Both Saiyan and Freeza arc were about villains looking for the dragon balls, isn't it strange that the dragon balls are not a important factor in the Cell and Buu sagas? :roll:

But yeah, you can't have Dr. Gero and Babidi after the Dragon Balls, that would have been too repetitive.

User avatar
Dayspring
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7753
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Dayspring » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:49 pm

Herms wrote: This panel, #10, features a sketch of Goku as an old man (featured in Dayspring’s avatar). This “geezer Goku” is sometimes cited as one of Toriyama’s planned endings for the series that was discarded, but as you can see it was less a solid plan and more like a “heh, maybe I could do this”. I think the French translation of Daizenshuu 7 (in which the comic is reprinted) may have contributed to this idea, since from what I remember it seemed as if the French translators didn’t take into account the fact that the comic was made years before DB ended, and translated Toriyama’s statements as if they were being made in retrospective after the series ended, thus transforming “hey, maybe I’ll do this” into “at one point, I planned on doing this”. But I can’t find a scan or translation of the French daizenshuu right now and this is all from memory, so for all I know I could be ragging on them for no reason at all. Wouldn’t be the first time.
The French version pretty much stated the exact same thing as your translation. :P
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
Freeza Heika wrote: for the land of the cool, and the home of the Appule
The Geeky Gentleman: For all your comics, movies, TV and other geeky needs.

User avatar
Fin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:12 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Fin » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:41 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Rocketman wrote:The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.
Right, even though Herms and I have already debunked all of your complaints, Toriyama was still somehow jumping through hoops to continue the series... :roll:
Oh come on... just because he probably wasn't planning to end it there doesn't make him immune from shitty writing. I think that's Rocketman's point.

User avatar
Chibi Mystic Gohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2877
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:55 pm
Location: Wakusei Bejeeter

Re: Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:58 pm

That's clearly not the point he's trying to make, because he's still saying that it has something to do with the series ending. If the twists are shitty, just call them shitty! (Don't see why he gives the Freeza arc so much crap... the entire series is filled with absurd twists.)
君と再会ったとき 子供のころ大切に想っていた景色を思い出したんだ
僕と踊ってくれないか 光と影の Winding Road いまでも彼に夢中なの?

Post Reply