Color Correcting the Dragon Box - 3 Part Spectacular

[clutchins]

Mindlessly praising poor approaches isn't very beneficial. It's not about putting people down, it's about ensuring nobody's going in the wrong direction.

With all due respect, Ajay, all you said about waifu2x was your opinion of it being gross and not any reasons why it would be gross to use it. I myself would like to know more about why it sucks.

[Robo4900]

Mindlessly praising poor approaches isn't very beneficial. It's not about putting people down, it's about ensuring nobody's going in the wrong direction.

With all due respect, Ajay, all you said about waifu2x was your opinion of it being gross and not any reasons why it would be gross to use it. I myself would like to know more about why it sucks.

I mean, I don't speak for him, but he did say "Everything becomes a gross smeary mess. Check out the rocks in that last GT image - you've destroyed all of the textural detail there."

Which is pretty much how I feel about it. It's the same problem basically every complex upscaler out there has; you don't have the extra detail, so you basically just blur it in new and creative ways that really don't make the image any better, they just screw with the look of the original image, usually destroying the underlying texture, and giving the picture a totally different look, in this case including the fact it softens the picture -- especially the linework, which was always very bold and well-defined on the original -- into a blurry mess rather reminiscent of the Funimation "Remastered" sets.

[Son_Gohan]

In my view, selectively changing the colors to match how they'd look in cels just takes the image out of balance, I think it's better to just enhance what's already there. Not to mention, the cel is not the final product, the colors weren't intended to look that way on a screen; so if the goal is originality, you're kinda missing the point anyway.

If you were to ask what is the purpose of the Dragon Box: it is to be watched on a screen. Whatever aids the viewing experience works towards that. Trying to force the picture to be something incompatible, away from its visual harmony is counter-productive. Personally, I don't want my eyes to focus on many different parts of a picture all fighting for my attention, on trivial/distracting details like the lineart or film grain, have to focus too hard to acquire the information; over-stimulating the optic nerves and causing eye strain. I think the visual information should all work together as a unified whole, with subtle focal point(s). I'd want it to appear as natural to the senses as possible so that my brain doesn't continually have to tell me it is fake/doesn't look right. The original picture of the Dragon Box doesn't suit those preferences for me:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

It's subjective of course, but to make it pleasing for my eyes: I'd add some light to give the colors life, adjust the color balance to get the picture in harmony, and add a diffusion filter for depth/realism/deception. This way my eyes don't have to be in focus too much, I can acquire enough visual information without it being overstimulating, deceive my brain into thinking its real enough, and therefore enhance my viewing experience by more easily engaging deeper thought processes--beyond what meets the eye, as they are more free from constant strain:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I don't feel there's a need to alter the colors to something more natural because when the eyes aren't overly-focused/conscious of it, the imagination/sub-conscious kind of fills it in for you.

[Shaddy]

waifu2x is really only good for digital stuff without a lot of noise, AKA literally nothing like old Dragon Ball footage.

[HakkaiBills93]

just keep your source like your source is, just correct colors, luminosity, brightness, authoring issues, that's all
It's already a pain to do all other things are totally unworth... DNR can be really well done but it will be allways very time consumming doing it, sharpening will never give you any extra details it will only trick your eyes by wrong feelings

[Robo4900]

DNR can be really well done but it will be allways very time consumming doing it

On DVD footage, it's already been DNR'd by professionals who made a deliberate choice on how far it's worth DNRing too without losing detail. DNRing it further is only excusable if you're a lazy encoder who wants your files to end up smaller, and the year is 2003.

[MarioSonicU]

Is there a script that corrects the color of Dragon Box Z to that of the original 2000-2005 singles/Ultimate Uncut?

[Robo4900]

Is there a script that corrects the color of Dragon Box Z to that of the original 2000-2005 singles/Ultimate Uncut?

You'd have to put something together yourself using Dr. Dre's colour-matching tools.

[Kuwabara]

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I got excited reading your post until I saw your alterations, they share almost nothing in common with their original source. Whatever diffusion filter you've used has smeared away any detail that was there and created something completely alien. This is not what the footage is supposed to look like and, minus the blown out saturation/contrast, reminds me of amateur YouTube AMVs.

trivial/distracting details like the lineart or film grain

What are you going on about? These details aren't trivial or distracting at all, and if you really think so, I question why you're watching a work of animation; the line art makes up a huge part of Dragon Ball's visual identity, to blur or smear it does not serve its intent.

This way my eyes don't have to be in focus too much, I can acquire enough visual information without it being overstimulating, deceive my brain into thinking its real enough, and therefore enhance my viewing experience by more easily engaging deeper thought processes--beyond what meets the eye, as they are more free from constant strain

I think these deeper thought processes you speak of are your own mental gymnastics. Eyes are meant to focus on things, and diffusing grain and line work does nothing to aid that. On the contrary, if I were to try watching this in motion, my eyes would be fighting to try and discern all of the detail that's been smudged away. I'm having a really hard time understanding what you're trying to accomplish here and I'm surprised no one else has objected to your approach.

[HakkaiBills93]

Is there a script that corrects the color of Dragon Box Z to that of the original 2000-2005 singles/Ultimate Uncut?

You'd have to put something together yourself using Dr. Dre's colour-matching tools.

even with that dr dre tools don't work to 100% and when you import the lut files into your software like after effect, the result rarely looks like how it was supposed to look

[Robo4900]

Is there a script that corrects the color of Dragon Box Z to that of the original 2000-2005 singles/Ultimate Uncut?

You'd have to put something together yourself using Dr. Dre's colour-matching tools.

even with that dr dre tools don't work to 100% and when you import the lut files into your software like after effect, the result rarely looks like how it was supposed to look

I disagree. You won't get perfect results; the look of the footage is very different between sources, and a 100% match will never happen no matter how much the software continues to improve, but I think you can get great results, provided you know what you're doing.

[Son_Gohan]

I got excited reading your post until I saw your alterations, they share almost nothing in common with their original source. Whatever diffusion filter you've used has smeared away any detail that was there and created something completely alien. This is not what the footage is supposed to look like and, minus the blown out saturation/contrast, reminds me of amateur YouTube AMVs.

trivial/distracting details like the lineart or film grain

What are you going on about? These details aren't trivial or distracting at all, and if you really think so, I question why you're watching a work of animation; the line art makes up a huge part of Dragon Ball's visual identity, to blur or smear it does not serve its intent.

This way my eyes don't have to be in focus too much, I can acquire enough visual information without it being overstimulating, deceive my brain into thinking its real enough, and therefore enhance my viewing experience by more easily engaging deeper thought processes--beyond what meets the eye, as they are more free from constant strain

I think these deeper thought processes you speak of are your own mental gymnastics. Eyes are meant to focus on things, and diffusing grain and line work does nothing to aid that. On the contrary, if I were to try watching this in motion, my eyes would be fighting to try and discern all of the detail that's been smudged away. I'm having a really hard time understanding what you're trying to accomplish here and I'm surprised no one else has objected to your approach.

Because the point isn't art analysis or purism/historical preservation; it's for natural perception/ease of viewability. I thought I made that clear. Itty-bitty, trifling details are of no concern to me when watching the footage in real-time, as these frames only occur for a few seconds. Therefore, in that brief amount of time, I want to receive only the information that is vital to grasping the point of the scene beyond its superficial value.

In real life, your eyes don't stay in focus all the time. It works with focal points in a limited area. All the extraneous detail that attracts your attention on the screen, forcing your eyes/brain to process them, inevitably contributes to additional eye strain/brain drain. Hand-drawn animation is simply a visual medium meant to convey information. I do not share your romanticized view that obsesses over it's 2D origins at all times; I don't want to think about the animation production process while I'm watching it (unless it serves the intended purpose).

No, it's called gut instinct, the enteric nervous system, your second brain. The fruits of an experience is not limited to what you perceive with your eyes, and when you're cut-off from this process/over-emphasize what can only be consciously discerned, you're greatly limiting your capacity of thought--ideally, the two should be in balance.

For your eyes, but not for mine. When I was kid, I could watch the show without having to be constantly reminded it wasn't real due to its artificial limitations. But now, I have to deceive myself more in order to stay focused on and process the information effectively, keeping my brain from telling me it's fake. I understand your perspective, it is subjective, based on your own experience; but is not what I'm catering towards--the direction I'm going is visual balance and naturalism.

[Vorige Waffe]

Because the point isn't art analysis or purism/historical preservation; it's for natural perception/ease of viewability. I thought I made that clear. Itty-bitty, trifling details are of no concern to me when watching the footage in real-time, as these frames only occur for a few seconds. Therefore, in that brief amount of time, I want to receive only the information that is vital to grasping the point of the scene beyond its superficial value.

In real life, your eyes don't stay in focus all the time. It works with focal points in a limited area. All the extraneous detail that attracts your attention on the screen, forcing your eyes/brain to process them, inevitably contributes to additional eye strain/brain drain. Hand-drawn animation is simply a visual medium meant to convey information. I do not share your romanticized view that obsesses over it's 2D origins at all times; I don't want to think about the animation production process while I'm watching it (unless it serves the intended purpose).

No, it's called gut instinct, the enteric nervous system, your second brain. The fruits of an experience is not limited to what you perceive with your eyes, and when you're cut-off from this process/over-emphasize what can only be consciously discerned, you're greatly limiting your capacity of thought--ideally, the two should be in balance.

For your eyes, but not for mine. When I was kid, I could watch the show without having to be constantly reminded it wasn't real due to its artificial limitations. But now, I have to deceive myself more in order to stay focused on and process the information effectively, keeping my brain from telling me it's fake. I understand your perspective, it is subjective, based on your own experience; but is not what I'm catering towards--the direction I'm going is visual balance and naturalism.

Dude, here's the deal: Your edits look blurry and out-of-focus. That's not a subjective opinion, it's fact. If that looks fine to you then that's great, but blowing out the saturation and cranking up the diffusion and filtering is like, the complete exact opposite of reference quality colors we want from old Dragon Ball footage and really serves no purpose for this thread. Looking at your edits, I have wonder if I'm looking at them with my glasses off (as I'm pretty near-sighted), but nope, they're on and those images are horrifically smeared.

I could watch the show without having to be constantly reminded it wasn't real due to its artificial limitations. But now, I have to deceive myself more in order to stay focused on and process the information effectively, keeping my brain from telling me it's fake.

Pretty sure as kids we could discern DBZ was "fake" because of well... everything that happens in the damn show.

[Son_Gohan]

Dude, here's the deal: Your edits look blurry and out-of-focus. That's not a subjective opinion, it's fact. If that looks fine to you then that's great, but blowing out the saturation and cranking up the diffusion and filtering is like, the complete exact opposite of reference quality colors we want from old Dragon Ball footage and really serves no purpose for this thread. Looking at your edits, I have wonder if I'm looking at them with my glasses off (as I'm pretty near-sighted), but nope, they're on and those images are horrifically smeared.

I could watch the show without having to be constantly reminded it wasn't real due to its artificial limitations. But now, I have to deceive myself more in order to stay focused on and process the information effectively, keeping my brain from telling me it's fake.

Pretty sure as kids we could discern DBZ was "fake" because of well... everything that happens in the damn show.

That's not even in dispute. If you read my post, the point was not to make it clearer/preserve detail, but to the very contrary, only specifically focus on the details essential to the picture; as it would in real life. You say you wear glasses, which means your vision is already distorted, and therefore would not be conditioned to the natural perspective I'm directing it towards. I don't wear glasses, so naturally we see things a lot differently.

My criticism with the original purpose of the thread is that I don't think it makes the image look "better" by altering the colors in that way--from a viewing perspective. It actually takes it out-of-balance, making it harder on the eyes. Your eyes could adapt to that strain, but it doesn't need to be there in the first place. You may see it as the opposite, but that's why it's subjective; I'm just sharing my own perspective on it. When the show was being produced, I don't believe they intended for the cel to look exactly the way it would on the screen; as they would know conversion artifacts and color distortions come into play effecting the final product. They could've just chosen their colors in preparation for that. Because the cel colors sure don't look good to me; a lot are over-saturated and unnatural. I didn't touch the saturation setting on those edits, by the way, it was just a curves adjustment.

By "fake", I mean like "seeing really bad CGI" fake, which just takes away from the viewing experience. Being older now, my eyes can detect the imperfections of the art much easier, stuff my mind really doesn't need to be thinking/aware of while I'm trying to watch it. Back when the show was being produced with traditional methods, the picture possessed an organic quality, and the artifacts/blurriness actually aided in the effect of masking the imperfections. With the digital methods used nowadays, it's so clear that you can instantly perceive all the imperfections of the picture, and the artificiality is too striking; all the life is just taken away from it.

[Kuwabara]

It's a cheaply produced anime series from the late 80s/early 90s, so of course there would be imperfections. I think most people here take that for granted. But, for you to boil it down to me "obsessing" over the two-dimensional aspect really undersells what I like about the series visually. Yes, I have a "romanticized" view of the artwork, but that's because I generally hold visual storytelling in pretty high regard. I love when aesthetics unfurl before my eyes in a satisfying way. Everything from framing, to staging, to editing, to color space and cinematography is important and interesting to me. The visual medium is just another facet to appreciate.

Pacing aside, I happen to think that Dragon Ball and Z are expertly directed where it counts, and part of that has to do with the constraints with which they were produced. It's impossible not to think of the animation process when bearing witness to the hundreds of sick cuts these studios managed to churn out in spite of limited resources. When the production values are on, it is a feast for the eyes. When they aren't, I can accept this and move on. I don't see how taking notice of either would hinder my ability to enjoy the characters, story, and overall core of what's happening on screen. Certain visual aspects only serve to distract you, and while I better understand your point of view now, I personally can't see eye to eye with you.

And, just for the record, I at least agree with you about cel references generally being pointless most of the time. Sure, there's nothing wrong with loosely using them as a guide, but too many hurdles keep them from being the be-all-end-all source for color correction. How well preserved are the cels? This is the biggest inherent flaw; we're working with degraded material to begin with, animation scanned from aging film. Now we're supposed to trust another degraded color source? Even putting that aside, various other impracticalities manage to crop up... Are you viewing the cels under a light? What kind of light? Are you scanning them, and if so, with what kind of scanner? Are you viewing these scans on a monitor that's properly calibrated? If it is calibrated, is it a monitor even worth giving a damn about? How old is the backlight? Who can really say they're the expert on what the "original colors" are with a straight face anyway? This shit goes on and on and on... So, I think it's best to just grab a decent, fresh monitor, maybe get an idea for how other series or films of a similar vintage tend to look, and better harmonize the material that's right there in front of you.

[Vorige Waffe]

My criticism with the original purpose of the thread is that I don't think it makes the image look "better" by altering the colors in that way--from a viewing perspective. It actually takes it out-of-balance, making it harder on the eyes. Your eyes could adapt to that strain, but it doesn't need to be there in the first place.

You're edits harder to see even when I have glasses on or to people who have perfectly fine vision to begin with. By making it blurry and out-of focus you're making our eyes strain to look at the image.

When the show was being produced, I don't believe they intended for the cel to look exactly the way it would on the screen; as they would know conversion artifacts and color distortions come into play effecting the final product. They could've just chosen their colors in preparation for that.

And how do you know that? Can you provide us a source? Was that some artistic intent by Daisuke Nishio?

Because the cel colors sure don't look good to me; a lot are over-saturated and unnatural. Being older now, my eyes can detect the imperfections of the art much easier, stuff my mind really doesn't need to be thinking/aware of while I'm trying to watch it.

That's nice and all, but this is a thread about correcting objective flaws with the Dragon Box colors, like the teal skies and pinkish skin tones you get when color film degrades over time. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you should've made a different thread for your personal edits, because they don't serve any purpose for this one.

Back when the show was being produced with traditional methods, the picture possessed an organic quality, and the artifacts/blurriness actually aided in the effect of masking the imperfections. With the digital methods used nowadays, it's so clear that you can instantly perceive all the imperfections of the picture, and the artificiality is too striking; all the life is just taken away from it.

Uh dude, DBZ will always have been a show made in the late 80s/early 90s with "traditional methods"? Are you conflating this with the digital animation you see nowadays in DBS? Or are you talking about the differences in display technology when viewing DBZ? If it's the latter, then I can honestly say your edits are still smeary messes compared to how I saw DBZ on Cartoon Network on a 13 inch Phillips set in 1998.

And, just for the record, I at least agree with you about cel references generally being pointless most of the time. Sure, there's nothing wrong with loosely using them as a guide, but too many hurdles keep them from being the be-all-end-all source for color correction. How well preserved are the cels? This is the biggest inherent flaw; we're working with degraded material to begin with, animation scanned from aging film. Now we're supposed to trust another degraded color source? Even putting that aside, various other impracticalities manage to crop up... Are you viewing the cels under a light? What kind of light? Are you scanning them, and if so, with what kind of scanner? Are you viewing these scans on a monitor that's properly calibrated? If it is calibrated, is it a monitor even worth giving a damn about? How old is the backlight? Who can really say they're the expert on what the "original colors" are with a straight face anyway? This shit goes on and on and on... So, I think it's best to just grab a decent, fresh monitor, maybe get an idea for how other series or films of a similar vintage tend to look, and better harmonize the material that's right there in front of you.

Well while we don't have things like actual cels underneath light like the animators do, we do have things like card sets from Japan (I can't remember them specifically, but a lot of them seems to scanned from cels or at least well preserved films) and old Ani-manga to give us an idea of what the colors should look like. You're correct about calibrating monitors, as color correcting on not properly calibrated monitor leads to far too many subjective looking edits, even if they're unintended.

[Kuwabara]

Well while we don't have things like actual cels underneath light like the animators do, we do have things like card sets from Japan (I can't remember them specifically, but a lot of them seems to scanned from cels or at least well preserved films) and old Ani-manga to give us an idea of what the colors should look like. You're correct about calibrating monitors, as color correcting on not properly calibrated monitor leads to far too many subjective looking edits, even if they're unintended.

With the Animanga, I have the same general concerns I would have with the film and cels; they fade over time, and arguably have an even harder time being preserved well due to being more commercially available. Ignoring that, what if the printing techniques utilized weren't completely accurate anyway? How can we know with certainty? Are we to just give the corporate bodies involved the benefit of the doubt here? Seems sort of naive when we're talking about how a related corporate product's colors should have been corrected.

I don't know much about the Japanese trading cards, were they distributed in packs like Pokémon cards are? I'm making an assumption here, but if that's the case, fresh cards out of newly opened packs would at least have the benefit of having been stored in mylar, which is very archival safe. Still, who's to say those colors haven't faded as well? This would be more true of cards stored outside of sealed packs, which brings up another dilemma... Are we supposed to drop a ton of money on importing sealed packs of randomly inserted trading cards for a chance at finding the reference shots needed to base corrections on? Surely not every frame in the series is available in this form?

Let me know if I'm overthinking all of this, but I can't help but try and cover any and all possible pitfalls. The problem I foresee with trying to be a meticulous purist about the matter is that you can't do that without doing it 100% all the way. It quickly becomes ridiculous and unwieldy.

[Son_Gohan]

You're edits harder to see even when I have glasses on or to people who have perfectly fine vision to begin with. By making it blurry and out-of focus you're making our eyes strain to look at the image.

And how do you know that? Can you provide us a source? Was that some artistic intent by Daisuke Nishio?

That's nice and all, but this is a thread about correcting objective flaws with the Dragon Box colors, like the teal skies and pinkish skin tones you get when color film degrades over time. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you should've made a different thread for your personal edits, because they don't serve any purpose for this one.

Uh dude, DBZ will always have been a show made in the late 80s/early 90s with "traditional methods"? Are you conflating this with the digital animation you see nowadays in DBS? Or are you talking about the differences in display technology when viewing DBZ? If it's the latter, then I can honestly say your edits are still smeary messes compared to how I saw DBZ on Cartoon Network on a 13 inch Phillips set in 1998.

That tells me more about the state of your eyes, and that they are normally a lot blurrier than mine. For me, it's not so blurry that it causes strain to look at it. The edits are balanced to an energy transmission that is meant to reduce eye strain, not cause. It will probably be better for your eyes, gut health and memory in the long run because it's not over-stimulating to the eyes/brain and compromising circulation to the gut.

Your eyes will naturally adjust to it like they were able to adapt to the jumbled frequency it had initially. Just as if you were to wear a heavy backpack all the time, your body would adapt to that strain; the same goes for the eyes. Not every adaptation is going to be best for your health and well-being. Based on your personal experience, your brain/eyes are conditioned to search for these details in the image subconsciously, causing strain and distress when your eyes are unable to focus on them. If you were to just view it purely, like a child for the first time, you wouldn't have this problem.

Not for Toei specifically, but from the animation production processes that I've seen it's common for them to go over the final product on a CRT television screen to see how it looks and make any appropriate changes. Such as in this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvYxaNVsTWQ


They acknowledge the fact that the colors will appear differently on TV, and use an industrial brand where the colors appear different from even the standard TVs in peoples homes. And how things can get repainted if it doesn't look right:

[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

They also emphasize my point of using techniques that enhance the feeling the product evokes as opposed to what merely meets the eye; such as diffusion (like I used). If it were simply intended to look like the original elements from which it came, then why bother with this?

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

They want to create a sense of depth so that your mind is not drawn to its 2D origins that exists on sheets and paper: they want to make it feel real. That is the same direction I am going for with my edits; the difference being, I'm taking it further by trying to make it look as real/natural as possible, whereas their production constraints prevent them from going so far. In real life we see in 3 dimensions, using focal points where the field of view is not so clear, there are no outlines around everything (so I don't want my eyes focusing on that). I want to be able to think deeply on the content that I'm viewing, beyond the superficial level. If I were to try catering to your perspective, I would lower the strength of the diffusion filter so that it isn't as blurry and more of the details become readily apparent (like here at 77% & 74%, respectfully):

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

The picture becomes less blurry but consequently takes away depth, diminishes the focal point (in this case, Gohan's glaring eyes), making the lineart more apparent and the overall image flatter; which goes against the natural effect I was going for.

That is more appropriately termed "color-matching" than "correcting", because if you're distorting the balance of the image in order to make it suit a particular standard, then it's hardly making it better from an objective standpoint. You're still making a presumption on how the picture is "supposed" to look, because as pointed out earlier, the colors differ even in the TV monitors that they use in the industry, and when viewed through different mediums. Subjectively, people will see colors differently as well, especially blues and greens (some say Bulma's hair is green, others say it's blue).

Since the Dragon Box transfer was already an aged product, it is more easily taken out of visual harmony when artificially attempting to surpass its limits using software. Therefore, you can only go so far in "correcting" the picture without taking it too far away from natural balance. Since I'm trying to go towards balance, I only add light a little light to give it more life, because changing the colors entirely is too hard on the aged footage we were given.

There was some controversy not long ago about how poorly drawn/animated DB Super was in comparison to DBZ. But it's not that DBZ wasn't poorly drawn at times as well, it's just that people weren't noticing the imperfections in the art as much because of the different methods used in producing both shows. Evidently, the picture being clearer does not mean it is better.

[Captain Awesome]

What an overwrought series of mealy mouthed mental gymnastics.

Your edits are blurry and over exposed. Let’s not pretend they satisfy anything other than your own convoluted rubric.

[Robo4900]

What an overwrought series of mealy mouthed mental gymnastics.

Your edits are blurry and over exposed. Let’s not pretend they satisfy anything other than your own convoluted rubric.

Let's not be nasty here.

I agree that the blurry, overexposed weirdness is a poor decision, and the logic behind it is rather nonsensical, but let's at least be nice about it...