Unpopular DB opinions

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Champa The Destroyer
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:30 am

End of Z (the 28th tournament) is actually pretty great.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:53 am

WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:
It just doesn’t feel authentic.
And having several different voices for the same character wouldn't take you out of it?

Recasting bugs me.
At the most, I can’t imagine them needing more than two voices for someone like Gohan during the anime proper. Video games are a different story, but most hardcore fans who play the games probably switch to the Japanese voices anyway.
ReBoot needed FOUR kids to voice Enzo... four.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:47 am

ABED wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote: And having several different voices for the same character wouldn't take you out of it?

Recasting bugs me.
At the most, I can’t imagine them needing more than two voices for someone like Gohan during the anime proper. Video games are a different story, but most hardcore fans who play the games probably switch to the Japanese voices anyway.
ReBoot needed FOUR kids to voice Enzo... four.
In the case of ReBoot, the fourth kid was needed because the fourth season came out three years after the previous one ended.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:54 am

Champa The Destroyer wrote:End of Z (the 28th tournament) is actually pretty great.
Too bad it feels incomplete.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:24 am

jeffbr92 wrote:
Champa The Destroyer wrote:End of Z (the 28th tournament) is actually pretty great.
Too bad it feels incomplete.
I sort of agree that more could have been done, but it just felt like it was supposed to be a fun little short epilogue, not meant to be expanded upon imo.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:33 am

Champa The Destroyer wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
Champa The Destroyer wrote:End of Z (the 28th tournament) is actually pretty great.
Too bad it feels incomplete.
I sort of agree that more could have been done, but it just felt like it was supposed to be a fun little short epilogue, not meant to be expanded upon imo.
I think there are 2 issues with it, one being too short and the other it leaving things too open ended. Despite GT's many issues, at least it gave DB an actual ending.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:20 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
At the most, I can’t imagine them needing more than two voices for someone like Gohan during the anime proper. Video games are a different story, but most hardcore fans who play the games probably switch to the Japanese voices anyway.
ReBoot needed FOUR kids to voice Enzo... four.
In the case of ReBoot, the fourth kid was needed because the fourth season came out three years after the previous one ended.
I know, but three in as many years isn't much better.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:02 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:i think sometimes People are way too hard on Writing in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z and nitpick a lot of things. if they critically analyze and nitpick other shows like Naruto, etc. then I hardly see them getting anymore than 6/10.
Don't you mean to include Dragon Ball Super in there too? Or does it not fall under that category?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:51 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:i think sometimes People are way too hard on Writing in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z and nitpick a lot of things. if they critically analyze and nitpick other shows like Naruto, etc. then I hardly see them getting anymore than 6/10.
Don't you mean to include Dragon Ball Super in there too? Or does it not fall under that category?
i am clearly referring to Original Canon shows not GT or Super.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:53 pm

ABED wrote:Then I don't know what to tell you. This statement IS meant to be a general criticism. Many stories have this fault. They have cool sounding ideas, but because of things like perhaps bad acting, pacing, dialog, etc. the actual execution of the idea doesn't live up to how interesting the idea sounded. The fact that it's vague doesn't mean it's wrong, and it's not like it's hard to find statements on this forum that elaborate on this point with specific examples of badly executed ideas from GT that sounded good on paper. For instance, plenty of people point to Baby. They say the idea of victim of the Saiyans coming for revenge sounds great, but Baby ultimately devolves into little more than a parasite that's evil for the sake of being evil. Whatever pathos he has goes out the window.
Hi. Been a bit ill, so was only just able to get back to this...

I think raising that specific point about Baby is good(I'd argue against it, but it's a good point to raise nonetheless), and I think it's okay to go "Execution didn't work for these reasons." It's just that going "Bad execution is the problem" is too vague. That's all I'm really trying to say.
ABED wrote:Two final points:
1) Damn near every story is about putting off the final confrontation until the end.
2) I'm glad that Freeza serves his purpose and then was gone. Sadly they brought him back because unless he's going to grow and change, it's not a good idea to keep bringing him back. The reason he doesn't change like Piccolo who started off as literally the embodiment of evil for the sake of evil (he was no less evil than Freeza) is because the arc of bad to good had been done several times before.
Given those two things, you make them seem like criticisms. They weren't bugs, they're features.
No, I agree with you there. They definitely aren't bugs, they definitely are features. Kind of the crux of my whole point here is that Freeza, despite being the least interesting villain, serves his purpose perfectly, and I don't think a deeper villain would have made the story any better. His place as the somewhat flat/generic "big bad evil man" is perfect for the story being told, as it means you're not cluttering up a narrative that's already massively dense, so you can focus on the characters we already know and love.
We don't need a villain arc from Freeza, because we already have Vegeta, and the conflict between him and the goodguys that drives development for all of them. And Freeza isn't really around that much in situations that would benefit from Freeza growing or progressing as a person; the reason he's fun to watch for the short periods we see him for is because he's delightfully and irredeemably evil, and revels in every second of it.

So, that's my ultimate point with this Freeza stuff: He's the least interesting villain, but that's because all the other villains are just that good; he's not a bad villain by any means.

Sorry to dig this up so much later, but I thought you deserved at least one more response.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:29 pm

Why do you have an issue with making a broad statement? You make it seem as though you've never seen anyone give examples of the very simple idea of a good idea with bad execution. People know what is meant by that phrase.

Don't confuse character change/development with depth. Depth has to do with abstraction and understanding. Who is the character and why do they do what they do? It requires good execution as well. Red isn't deep for precisely this issue. A diagnosis an armchair expert could make doesn't make him deep. I think the depth you see in characters like Buu and Red are very superficial and often imposed by you.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:40 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:i think sometimes People are way too hard on Writing in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z and nitpick a lot of things. if they critically analyze and nitpick other shows like Naruto, etc. then I hardly see them getting anymore than 6/10.
Don't you mean to include Dragon Ball Super in there too? Or does it not fall under that category?
i am clearly referring to Original Canon shows not GT or Super.
But Super is canon mate lol

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:33 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Don't you mean to include Dragon Ball Super in there too? Or does it not fall under that category?
i am clearly referring to Original Canon shows not GT or Super.
But Super is canon mate lol
This fandom cares a lot more about what is and isn't canon than TOEI, Shueisha or even Toriyama. It's really a moot point at this point arguing what does and doesn't count.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:59 pm

sintzu wrote:
Champa The Destroyer wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
Too bad it feels incomplete.
I sort of agree that more could have been done, but it just felt like it was supposed to be a fun little short epilogue, not meant to be expanded upon imo.
I think there are 2 issues with it, one being too short and the other it leaving things too open ended. Despite GT's many issues, at least it gave DB an actual ending.
It was no different. Goku left his friends and family again only difference is GT tried to make it all melodramatic and mysterious. The fact that we still don't know what exactly happened to Goku at the end of GT shows it wasn't a definitive ending and as much as an open ending as EoZ.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:03 pm

It was no different. Goku left his friends and family again only difference is GT tried to make it all melodramatic and mysterious. The fact that we still don't know what exactly happened to Goku at the end of GT shows it wasn't a definitive ending and as much as an open ending as EoZ.
We do know what happened. We don't know exactly where he goes, but we know in essence he made a deal with Shen Long to give him enough time to kill the One Star Dragon and in exchange, he and the dragon balls would disappear from the living world. He dies, but this time it's permanent with the one exception to allow Goku to see his great grandson fight in the TB. It is a very definitive conclusion.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:45 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:But Super is canon mate lol
According to who?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:35 pm

PFM18 wrote: I disagree, fighting to protect his loved ones I think is a better development for Vegeta. Especially since Vegeta retained his pride and cockiness even after shifting his priorities to be focused on being strong enough to protect those he cares about. And I thought it was better that this realization actually meant something. It gave him a new transformation and the ability to defeat and be useful for once.
Him being strong enough to protect his family was never his motivation in priority. It comes with him being strong. The logic of him getting a new form just for that is bad because it doesn't suit his character. Not even Gohan got a new form specifically for that goal, and his motivation now is this. It fits his character more than Vegeta. With Vegeta they just seem to be recycling what they generalize all the other supporting characters to be off what they've been reduced to.

Vegeta's goal in Super is to keep up with Goku as they now learn off each other as opposed to Vegeta just angerly speculating or isolating himself over the fact Goku got better a head of him. As far as I saw, Super was about Vegeta, accepting help, humbling his ego, making clearer judgement in his grounded morality, and now not wanting to shadow Goku anymore than he did while he felt inferior to him in Z. Toei just doesn't know how to portray this without recycling the same genre cliches they use with the friendship-flashbacks.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:01 am

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:But Super is canon mate lol
According to who?
Toriyama is the current writer so as of now what's "canon" are his stories as he clearly isn't taking anything else into account while writing. Once he's done however, a new writer could start taking things like Z's old movies into account and somehow connect them to what's currently going on.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:47 am

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:But Super is canon mate lol
According to who?
Toriyama writes the overall scenario and develops the basic story he wants to advance in his own way, BoG is canon and Super starts with a retelling of it lol
sintzu wrote:Once he's done however, a new writer could start taking things like Z's old movies into account and somehow connect them to what's currently going on.
Taking old movies into account? Errr I doubt that's a good idea be it only because of Broly if anything and for an example, if Broly were to be made canon, a whole lot in DB would stop making sense, remember they would be fighting him the same week they fought Cell, do I need to explain further why that would cause a terrible mess lol
All movies with the exception of BoG and RoF and all OVAs with the exception of the 2008 Jump Super Tour Anime Special are non-canon, just like GT they are considered side-stories lol

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sintzu » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:41 am

PsionicWarrior wrote:Taking old movies into account ? do I need to explain why that would cause a terrible mess ? All movies , just like GT they are considered side-stories lol
It would be a mess and would require a lot of retconning but despite that a new writer could bring them into the "canon" somehow, even if it doesn't make sense. If it has to be done I'd prefer whoever to just remake the story elements instead asthey'd be able to fit them into the current timeline without having to go through inconsistencies found in the originals.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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