Unpopular DB opinions

[ekrolo2]

but it's still a double standard. It's just people defending the stuff they like while bashing the stuff they don't like.

Not seeing the issue here. Of course people will defend the stuff they enjoy and knock the stuff they don't.

I think his issue is more with the reasoning behind it with many people, how canon matters when trying to remove GT but doesn't when defending the Bardock anime special which IS a double standard.

[Majin Buu]

I think his issue is more with the reasoning behind it with many people, how canon matters when trying to remove GT but doesn't when defending the Bardock anime special which IS a double standard.

Exactly. Lots of people use canon/Toriyama's involvement to justify Super overriding GT. Conversely, no one is citing either of those things as a positive when Dragon Ball Minus overrides the Bardock special, which only ever had a marginally better claim to canonicity than GT did.

People only want GT to be overridden because they don't like it and complain about the Bardock Special being overridden only because they do like it. It's a double standard because people are picking and choosing whether canon/Toriyama's involvement matters based on whether or not they like the work when they're both anime-original productions with neither having a strong claim to canonicity. The standards are not being applied equally.

[ekrolo2]

I think his issue is more with the reasoning behind it with many people, how canon matters when trying to remove GT but doesn't when defending the Bardock anime special which IS a double standard.

Exactly. Lots of people use canon/Toriyama's involvement to justify Super overriding GT. Conversely, no one is citing either of those things as a positive when Dragon Ball Minus overrides the Bardock special, which only ever had a marginally better claim to canonicity than GT did.

People only want GT to be overridden because they don't like it and complain about the Bardock Special being overridden only because they do like it. It's a double standard because people are picking and choosing whether canon/Toriyama's involvement matters based on whether or not they like the work when they're both anime-original productions with neither having a strong claim to canonicity. The standards are not being applied equally.

Yeah, a lot of DB canon debates are, when you remove all pretenses of higher authority or authorial importance, basically just whinging contests about who's shit is worth more than someone else's based on how much they like it. GT just happens to be a punching bag everyone goes to because its a meme to say its terrible, even if they never watch it which is totally a thing I've seen countless times. Because nothing makes you look like a shitbag than being a soulless automaton quite like regurgitating someone else' opinion without even watching the thing you purport to hate.

[Izanagi]

You know what I hate about Android arc? We went from a space fairing epic adventure against a galactic empire, to just fucking around on Earth until a cicada man shows up and then just fuck around with the same handful of jerks or train. For a lot of episodes.

This isn't just anticlimactic, it's reverse climactic. Imagine in Star Wars, if instead of deciding to face off against the Emperor, Luke just fucked around and fought Jabba the Hutt for the whole movie. The part on the speeder may have been entertaining, but it's downright stupid and a textbook example of bad writing.

The worst part is Toriyama had villains to work with -- King Cold was right fucking there. Had the entire backing of a galactic armada on his beck and call. But nope, let's just kill him off as a joke to make Trunks look cool while we fight a pair of teenage cyborgs crafted by an Earthling scientist who are somehow stronger than an intergalactic emperor who can blow up the planet with his pinkie.

[PFM18]

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

[MasenkoHA]

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I’ll take it further and say every level after Super Saiyajin was unnecessary and stupid bordering on self-parody if it wasn’t played completely straight. It added nothing to the lore to have 2,3, or 4

[Forte224]

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I’ll take it further and say every level after Super Saiyajin was unnecessary and stupid bordering on self-parody if it wasn’t played completely straight. It added nothing to the lore to have 2,3, or 4

What was later named 2 was a great way of showing Gohan's power finally explode. Also it looked awesome. I like 3's design, but I do agree everything after 2 including, Super's transformations, are largely pointless.

[MasenkoHA]

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I’ll take it further and say every level after Super Saiyajin was unnecessary and stupid bordering on self-parody if it wasn’t played completely straight. It added nothing to the lore to have 2,3, or 4

What was later named 2 was a great way of showing Gohan's power finally explode. Also it looked awesome. I like 3's design, but I do agree everything after 2 including, Super's transformations, are largely pointless.

And 2 should have just stayed that way as a manifestation of Gohan’s latent power not a brand new level of an already legendary mythical mode. Goku and Vegeta achieving this level (Goku off-screen even!) added nothing to the story.

[ABED]

Forget the lore. I like the intermediary forms that Vegeta and Trunks use. The idea of being able to manipulate the trade off of power and speed at will and the drawbacks was great fodder for story. It tells us about the characters, Goku and Vegeta's intelligence in battle, and Trunks' naiveté. SS3's power consumption was a great drawback. Forget lore, it's about story.

[PFM18]

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I mean yeah it is an unpopular opinion. SSJ3 is extremely popular, that's why you see everyone and their mother get it in DB heroes the ultimate fan-service media.

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I’ll take it further and say every level after Super Saiyajin was unnecessary and stupid bordering on self-parody if it wasn’t played completely straight. It added nothing to the lore to have 2,3, or 4

What was later named 2 was a great way of showing Gohan's power finally explode. Also it looked awesome. I like 3's design, but I do agree everything after 2 including, Super's transformations, are largely pointless.

I definitely agree about what you said about Gohan and SSJ2. I mean, I'm not sure that I don't think SSJ3 should exist, it is just that the aesthetic design is hideous.

[ABED]

Here's my unpopular opinion: Gohan's character arc is complete by the end of the Saiyan arc. Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 wasn't necessary. His potential had been realized several times prior. It's hardly this great culmination that had been built since his introduction.

[Lukmendes]

I think the super saiyan transformation is a dumb ass pull, the only "foreshadowing" we had for it were the characters talking about the legend, but all it really meant was "it's a strong and evil saiyan", so it being a transformation just makes it feel like an asspull which doesn't make sense because a saiyan's only transformation before that was Oozaru.

[ABED]

I think the super saiyan transformation is a dumb ass pull, the only "foreshadowing" we had for it were the characters talking about the legend, but all it really meant was "it's a strong and evil saiyan", so it being a transformation just makes it feel like an asspull which doesn't make sense because a saiyan's only transformation before that was Oozaru.

It's set up. Talking about it is foreshadowing. How is it a deus ex machina (I refuse to use such a ridiculous term like asspull)? One of the things that makes it works so well is the transformation is triggered by intense rage. Freeza fears that a Saiyan will destroy him and inadvertently brings about his own destruction by enraging Goku.

[Lukmendes]

I think the super saiyan transformation is a dumb ass pull, the only "foreshadowing" we had for it were the characters talking about the legend, but all it really meant was "it's a strong and evil saiyan", so it being a transformation just makes it feel like an asspull which doesn't make sense because a saiyan's only transformation before that was Oozaru.

It's set up. Talking about it is foreshadowing. How is it a deus ex machina (I refuse to use such a ridiculous term like asspull)? One of the things that makes it works so well is the transformation is triggered by intense rage. Freeza fears that a Saiyan will destroy him and inadvertently brings about his own destruction by enraging Goku.

It's not a proper foreshadow since every time, they talk about it being a strong and evil saiyan, even when Vegeta starts to consider that Goku is the super saiyan, he's talking about Goku's power alone and that he needs to be evil to become a super saiyan, then suddenly it's a transformation that is said someone evil couldn't do it (As Goku's and Freeza's conversation about it reach that conclusion, though later on they turned out to be wrong), feels pretty asspull to me.

[Forte224]

Forget the lore. I like the intermediary forms that Vegeta and Trunks use. The idea of being able to manipulate the trade off of power and speed at will and the drawbacks was great fodder for story. It tells us about the characters, Goku and Vegeta's intelligence in battle, and Trunks' naiveté. SS3's power consumption was a great drawback. Forget lore, it's about story.

It's a great drawback in concept, but it was never really utilized effectively I don't think. At least, not to it's fullest. I may or may not be contradicting aspects of my previous post here? I don't know. I'm lacking on sleep at the moment. Lore wasn't really what I was concerned about I guess. More how it affects the story. SS3 was just kind of like "Oh by the way I have a new form that none of you saw...here it is. Ta-daaaaaaa." Similar to my issues with SSB. It's just kind of there.

SSJ3 is a hideous transformation. It looks ridiculous and reminds me more of Rapunzel than a Dragon Ball character.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I mean yeah it is an unpopular opinion. SSJ3 is extremely popular, that's why you see everyone and their mother get it in DB heroes the ultimate fan-service media.

Is that an unpopular opinion? I agree of course.

I’ll take it further and say every level after Super Saiyajin was unnecessary and stupid bordering on self-parody if it wasn’t played completely straight. It added nothing to the lore to have 2,3, or 4

What was later named 2 was a great way of showing Gohan's power finally explode. Also it looked awesome. I like 3's design, but I do agree everything after 2 including, Super's transformations, are largely pointless.

I definitely agree about what you said about Gohan and SSJ2. I mean, I'm not sure that I don't think SSJ3 should exist, it is just that the aesthetic design is hideous.

Huh. I guess you could say our thoughts on SS3 are flipped. I like its original look. Yamamoto hasn't been kind to it in recent days, though.

[ABED]

I think the super saiyan transformation is a dumb ass pull, the only "foreshadowing" we had for it were the characters talking about the legend, but all it really meant was "it's a strong and evil saiyan", so it being a transformation just makes it feel like an asspull which doesn't make sense because a saiyan's only transformation before that was Oozaru.

It's set up. Talking about it is foreshadowing. How is it a deus ex machina (I refuse to use such a ridiculous term like asspull)? One of the things that makes it works so well is the transformation is triggered by intense rage. Freeza fears that a Saiyan will destroy him and inadvertently brings about his own destruction by enraging Goku.

It's not a proper foreshadow since every time, they talk about it being a strong and evil saiyan, even when Vegeta starts to consider that Goku is the super saiyan, he's talking about Goku's power alone and that he needs to be evil to become a super saiyan, then suddenly it's a transformation that is said someone evil couldn't do it (As Goku's and Freeza's conversation about it reach that conclusion, though later on they turned out to be wrong), feels pretty asspull to me.

What? It was an assumption on Vegeta's part. That's the point. He assumed Goku's temperament and low class status would preclude him from being a Super Saiyan. It's just an assumption and effective use of irony. You aren't supposed to take Vegeta's word as gospel.

it was never really utilized effectively I don't think. At least, not to it's fullest.

What would constitute using that drawback to its fullest?

[Lukmendes]

It's set up. Talking about it is foreshadowing. How is it a deus ex machina (I refuse to use such a ridiculous term like asspull)? One of the things that makes it works so well is the transformation is triggered by intense rage. Freeza fears that a Saiyan will destroy him and inadvertently brings about his own destruction by enraging Goku.

It's not a proper foreshadow since every time, they talk about it being a strong and evil saiyan, even when Vegeta starts to consider that Goku is the super saiyan, he's talking about Goku's power alone and that he needs to be evil to become a super saiyan, then suddenly it's a transformation that is said someone evil couldn't do it (As Goku's and Freeza's conversation about it reach that conclusion, though later on they turned out to be wrong), feels pretty asspull to me.

What? It was an assumption on Vegeta's part. That's the point. He assumed Goku's temperament and low class status would preclude him from being a Super Saiyan. It's just an assumption and effective use of irony. You aren't supposed to take Vegeta's word as gospel.

Ginyu also believe the same thing, that at least implies it was the overall belief of what the super saiyan is supposed to be, so they set up this one image of what the super saiyan is supposed to be, then turns out it's something really different that is a transformation that has nothing to do with what the saiyans could do up until that point, yeah...

The vagueness of the legend can excuse this though, but for me it just feels like an asspull since it goes against what was said before, 'cause, y'know, that's my unpopular opinion.

[ABED]

A false belief of a form no one had seen in 1000 years. Some believed it was just a legend. And the assumption about the temperament is due to the Saiyans' overall vicious nature. You heard the bad guys make those statements and took them at face value. It wasn't that different. It's a power up, plain and simple.

The set up was meant to be both vague and a ironic statement. It was set up, ergo not a deus ex machina.

[Izanagi]

I think the super saiyan transformation is a dumb ass pull, the only "foreshadowing" we had for it were the characters talking about the legend, but all it really meant was "it's a strong and evil saiyan", so it being a transformation just makes it feel like an asspull which doesn't make sense because a saiyan's only transformation before that was Oozaru.

It's set up. Talking about it is foreshadowing. How is it a deus ex machina (I refuse to use such a ridiculous term like asspull)? One of the things that makes it works so well is the transformation is triggered by intense rage. Freeza fears that a Saiyan will destroy him and inadvertently brings about his own destruction by enraging Goku.

The actual issue is that Goku activates it at the very last second. Freeza goes on a killing spree, first taking down Piccolo (he actually took the bullet that was aimed at Goku himself, too), then Kuririn, and then it would be Gohan and Goku. By then, there was no other possible way to avoid Freeza winning and killing everyone, and only after backing himself into that corner does Toriyama finally have Goku go Super Saiyan. So while the Legendary Super Saiyan form was set up, the way Goku tapped into the form makes it an deus ex machina at best and asspullery at worst.

[ABED]

I think the super saiyan transformation is a dumb ass pull, the only "foreshadowing" we had for it were the characters talking about the legend, but all it really meant was "it's a strong and evil saiyan", so it being a transformation just makes it feel like an asspull which doesn't make sense because a saiyan's only transformation before that was Oozaru.

It's set up. Talking about it is foreshadowing. How is it a deus ex machina (I refuse to use such a ridiculous term like asspull)? One of the things that makes it works so well is the transformation is triggered by intense rage. Freeza fears that a Saiyan will destroy him and inadvertently brings about his own destruction by enraging Goku.

The actual issue is that Goku activates it at the very last second. Freeza goes on a killing spree, first taking down Piccolo (he actually took the bullet that was aimed at Goku himself, too), then Kuririn, and then it would be Gohan and Goku. By then, there was no other possible way to avoid Freeza winning and killing everyone, and only after backing himself into that corner does Toriyama finally have Goku go Super Saiyan. So while the Legendary Super Saiyan form was set up, the way Goku tapped into the form makes it an deus ex machina at best and asspullery at worst.

That's not an issue. Of course it gets activated at the last second. It's dramatic tension, just like when someone defuses a bomb at the last second. That doesn't make it a deus ex machina. A DEM has either no set up or an insufficient set up, one that breaks the rules of the fictional world. Happening at the last moment isn't DEM. It's not when a character is backed into a corner that something becomes a DEM, it's when a character is put into a corner and the only way out is a plot device introduced at the very last second that wasn't sufficiently set up (e.g. Superman turning back time after the nuke goes off, resulting in Lois's death)

And asspull IS a deus ex machina.