Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:43 pm

SS also got set up a fair ways off before it even shows up. It's not like everyone just randomly starts talking about it a few chapters before it appears.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lukmendes » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:02 pm

ABED wrote:A false belief of a form no one had seen in 1000 years. Some believed it was just a legend. And the assumption about the temperament is due to the Saiyans' overall vicious nature. You heard the bad guys make those statements and took them at face value. It wasn't that different. It's a power up, plain and simple.

The set up was meant to be both vague and a ironic statement. It was set up, ergo not a deus ex machina.
It's a power up that goes against what other characters said, and it goes against DB itself since there wasn't any sign of SS when people Goku cared about died (Like y'know, first time Krillin died), and the transformation itself has nothing to do with saiyans with what was shown up until that point since Oozaru was the only transformation a saiyan can do... So yeah, a half assed foreshadowing that brings a new transformation outta nowhere that contradicts previous and similar rage filled moments (Sure there were explanations about how SS works, like S-cells shit, but that's way after the manga was done, and not being in the manga itself doesn't help), that's an asspull for me.

Also I'm growing bored of this conversation since we're just parroting the same points over and over, so if there's no new points being brought up then let's just drop this since it won't change how I feel.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:17 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
ABED wrote:A false belief of a form no one had seen in 1000 years. Some believed it was just a legend. And the assumption about the temperament is due to the Saiyans' overall vicious nature. You heard the bad guys make those statements and took them at face value. It wasn't that different. It's a power up, plain and simple.

The set up was meant to be both vague and a ironic statement. It was set up, ergo not a deus ex machina.
It's a power up that goes against what other characters said, and it goes against DB itself since there wasn't any sign of SS when people Goku cared about died (Like y'know, first time Krillin died), and the transformation itself has nothing to do with saiyans with what was shown up until that point since Oozaru was the only transformation a saiyan can do... So yeah, a half assed foreshadowing that brings a new transformation outta nowhere that contradicts previous and similar rage filled moments (Sure there were explanations about how SS works, like S-cells shit, but that's way after the manga was done, and not being in the manga itself doesn't help), that's an asspull for me.

Also I'm growing bored of this conversation since we're just parroting the same points over and over, so if there's no new points being brought up then let's just drop this since it won't change how I feel.
They're villains and it's a vague legend. You aren't supposed to take it at face value. Why would anyone take them at face value? Seriously, explain why we're supposed to take their specific statements at face value. At best they point to a legendary power the Saiyans might posses, but how it works, which clearly before was shown that they don't have a clear understanding of, isn't something they fully comprehend. Hell, they don't know about Saiyans' ability to grow stronger after near death. Given all that, why would you think their statements should be taken as gospel. Their statements are contradicted, but the story isn't.

I think we're supposed to infer that it's a matter of power. Goku didn't have sufficient power prior to arriving on Namek. And just because Oozaru was the only previous transformation a Saiyan was shown to be able to do, how does that prove they didn't have another transformation?

I have zero idea what "the transformation itself has nothing to do with saiyans with what was shown up until that point" means"?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Izanagi » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:44 pm

ABED wrote:That's not an issue. Of course it gets activated at the last second. It's dramatic tension, just like when someone defuses a bomb at the last second. That doesn't make it a deus ex machina. A DEM has either no set up or an insufficient set up, one that breaks the rules of the fictional world.
And the method of attaining the form was never set-up. It just feels arbitrary and random, especially considering the fact Goku had never, ever gotten stronger from rage before in the franchise until Kuririn got killed, which makes him suddenly so angry to the point that he can leapfrog from a power level of 3 million to 120 million. The only way Goku getting a rage boost to turn Super Saiyan would have worked is if he had been getting rage boosts throughout the story; by making Goku someone to get stronger from rage from the get-go of the story, it wouldn't have been random for rage to make him turn Super Saiyan. Strength from rage would have always been Goku's schtick. But it wasn't the case, thus, the Super Saiyan transformation just feels arbitrary, contrived, convoluted, and random.
Happening at the last moment isn't DEM. It's not when a character is backed into a corner that something becomes a DEM, it's when a character is put into a corner and the only way out is a plot device introduced at the very last second that wasn't sufficiently set up (e.g. Superman turning back time after the nuke goes off, resulting in Lois's death)
Why are you arguing semantics? There's hardly any difference. Goku was in a hopeless situation, out of Ki, low on stamina and was unable to use Kaioken. Then suddenly he conveniently goes from having a power level of 3 million to 120 million. To top it off, it magically healed Goku and restored all of his energy and stamina to the point he outlasted Freeza who had barely even used any power at all prior to Super Saiyan being a thing and was far less injured, and we all know that Super Saiyan doesn't have any healing properties. That's textbook deus ex machina.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:01 pm

Izanagi wrote:
ABED wrote:That's not an issue. Of course it gets activated at the last second. It's dramatic tension, just like when someone defuses a bomb at the last second. That doesn't make it a deus ex machina. A DEM has either no set up or an insufficient set up, one that breaks the rules of the fictional world.
And the method of attaining the form was never set-up. It just feels arbitrary and random, especially considering the fact Goku had never, ever gotten stronger from rage before in the franchise until Kuririn got killed, which makes him suddenly so angry to the point that he can leapfrog from a power level of 3 million to 120 million. The only way Goku getting a rage boost to turn Super Saiyan would have worked is if he had been getting rage boosts throughout the story; by making Goku someone to get stronger from rage from the get-go of the story, it wouldn't have been random for rage to make him turn Super Saiyan. Strength from rage would have always been Goku's schtick. But it wasn't the case, thus, the Super Saiyan transformation just feels arbitrary, contrived, convoluted, and random.
Happening at the last moment isn't DEM. It's not when a character is backed into a corner that something becomes a DEM, it's when a character is put into a corner and the only way out is a plot device introduced at the very last second that wasn't sufficiently set up (e.g. Superman turning back time after the nuke goes off, resulting in Lois's death)
Why are you arguing semantics? There's hardly any difference. Goku was in a hopeless situation, out of Ki, low on stamina and was unable to use Kaioken. Then suddenly he conveniently goes from having a power level of 3 million to 120 million. To top it off, it magically healed Goku and restored all of his energy and stamina to the point he outlasted Freeza who had barely even used any power at all prior to Super Saiyan being a thing and was far less injured, and we all know that Super Saiyan doesn't have any healing properties. That's textbook deus ex machina.
I have to argue semantics because you have an lackluster understanding of what DEM is. If Super Saiyan hadn't been constantly talked about, then it would've been sudden if he transformed out of nowhere, but it wasn't. They did constantly bring it up and Goku went through hell before he did get it. That's not text book DEM. It doesn't break the rules of the world, and it was set up prior. Happening at the last minute doesn't make it DEM. That would be bad writing if Goku got the transformation before he needed it. There's a world of difference between a character getting out of a tough situation at the last minute vs. getting out of a tough situation at the last minute because a plot device that wasn't set up prior and breaks the rules of the fictional world.

It's not a random power up. So what if he never got stronger by pure rage before. It's not just strength from rage like Gohan. It's something being unlocked. He transformed, he didn't merely power up. And Goku wasn't healed. Super Saiyan boosted his energy, that's what the transformation does, it's a boost.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Izanagi » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:38 pm

ABED wrote:I have to argue semantics because you have an lackluster understanding of what DEM is. If Super Saiyan hadn't been constantly talked about, then it would've been sudden if he transformed out of nowhere, but it wasn't.
I wouldn't call "sup, i fear super saiyans/want to be a super saiyan" foreshadowing. That's like saying that knives exists and then the protagonist pulls a never seen before knife in a world where knives are stuffs of legends when he's being mugged. It was never stated what a Super Saiyan is, how it is achieved, etc. What's worse, the so-called triggers for it later mentioned happened to Goku several times when he was a kid, yet he never became a Super Saiyan back then, nor did Gohan.
They did constantly bring it up and Goku went through hell before he did get it. That's not text book DEM. It doesn't break the rules of the world, and it was set up prior.
No. Goku was built up to get the form in general, but not to get the form from rage. Yes, the method for getting the form needed build-up as well. At the very least, rage shouldn't have been the method, as Goku was never someone to get stronger from rage before. Thus, it makes no sense for him to turn Super Saiyan from rage and is random.
Happening at the last minute doesn't make it DEM. That would be bad writing if Goku got the transformation before he needed it.
Yes it does, that's the literal definition of a deus ex machina.
"deus ex machina
/ˌdeɪʊs ɛks ˈmakɪnə,ˌdiːəs ɛks məˈʃiːnə/
noun
an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel."

It's not a random power up. So what if he never got stronger by pure rage before. It's not just strength from rage like Gohan. It's something being unlocked. He transformed, he didn't merely power up.
It is a random power-up given that Goku was absolutely drained after fighting Freeza, his only hope was to do a Genki Dama which Freeza survived. Afterwards, completely tired and almost unable to move without help, Goku went Super Saiyan and was easily overpowering Freeza, and outlast him at his full power, and the latter wasn't even going all-out up until that point.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:59 pm

I would definitely call "I fear that the Saiyans will become powerful enough to overthrow me" while Vegeta and others harping on the legend of a being of incredible power to be foreshadowing. There's no reason to bring that up unless it comes into play later. It's Chekov's Gun. Don't bring up that legend unless it will come into play by the end.
Yes, the method for getting the form needed build-up as well.
Says who?
Yes it does, that's the literal definition of a deus ex machina.
It's not the last minute that makes it a DEM. That's PART of it, but it also has to be contrived.
You cut and paste while conveniently ignoring the latter part of the definition. Also, Super Saiyan is expected. It's brought up several times, we just don't know the form it will take. I don't like that definition because it doesn't go to the core of the concept. It's about the solution to a seemingly unsolvable problem popping up without prior set up. It's about not being organic to the story. Super Saiyan 3 is more of a deus ex machine, even though it doesn't solve the problem. It does conveniently give Goku the power to fight Buu when he needed it and it was never set up in any way. And it contradicts previous statements and actions in the arc when he fought Vegeta.
It is a random
It's not random. People on here abuse that word. They kept talking about Super Saiyan and guess what, he turns Super Saiyan.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Forte224 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:58 pm

What would constitute using that drawback to its fullest?
Maybe some tension to beat Boo before his time runs out? I don't know. All I know is that the quick drain never really affected things in any substantial way. Other than that it provided Goku with an excuse to give to Vegeta of why he didn't use it in their fight. But nothing really changed between Goku's fight and Vegeta's fight against Boo. Goku lasted longer due to SS3 I suppose, but it didn't end up doing anything. SS1 and SS2 were NEEDED to defeat Freeza and Cell respectively, SS3 was not. The Genki Dama fulfilled that.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:15 pm

Forte224 wrote:
What would constitute using that drawback to its fullest?
Maybe some tension to beat Boo before his time runs out? I don't know. All I know is that the quick drain never really affected things in any substantial way. Other than that it provided Goku with an excuse to give to Vegeta of why he didn't use it in their fight. But nothing really changed between Goku's fight and Vegeta's fight against Boo. Goku lasted longer due to SS3 I suppose, but it didn't end up doing anything. SS1 and SS2 were NEEDED to defeat Freeza and Cell respectively, SS3 was not. The Genki Dama fulfilled that.
I don't recall him ever bringing it up in relation to his fight with Vegeta. The drain comes into play during the fight against Kid Buu. He tries to gather his power and ends up returning to his base form. He had to resort to the Genki Dama because he was out of power and even after throwing it, he almost lost because he was exhausted.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Forte224 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Forte224 wrote:
What would constitute using that drawback to its fullest?
Maybe some tension to beat Boo before his time runs out? I don't know. All I know is that the quick drain never really affected things in any substantial way. Other than that it provided Goku with an excuse to give to Vegeta of why he didn't use it in their fight. But nothing really changed between Goku's fight and Vegeta's fight against Boo. Goku lasted longer due to SS3 I suppose, but it didn't end up doing anything. SS1 and SS2 were NEEDED to defeat Freeza and Cell respectively, SS3 was not. The Genki Dama fulfilled that.
I don't recall him ever bringing it up in relation to his fight with Vegeta. The drain comes into play during the fight against Kid Buu. He tries to gather his power and ends up returning to his base form. He had to resort to the Genki Dama because he was out of power and even after throwing it, he almost lost because he was exhausted.
He brought it up when Baba first brought Vegeta back. Vegeta was mad because Goku held back in their fight by not using SS3, and Goku used the excuse that he couldn't have used it to win because of the power drain. It clearly was just a light hearted moment where Goku was trying to help keep Vegeta's pride in tact, though.

And, as regards the final fight, that's kind of my point. The form itself didn't accomplish anything. If it had inflicted some sort of lasting damage on Boo or whatever then that's cool. But in the end all it accomplished was the first time it was used when it let Trunks get back to Capsule Corp. in time to get the radar. It did nothing for Gotenks against Super Boo, it did nothing for Goku against Kid Boo.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:41 pm

Which goes to my point about the drawback. It wasn't a slam dunk. It wasn't a deus ex machine. He's not able to deliver the final blow or even a lasting blow against them because he doesn't have the time. Also, it drains him of his time on Earth. What is the point you're trying to make?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Forte224 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:52 pm

Just that I felt the form was a bit wasted because it didn't do anything worth while. Goku would've lost his time on earth regardless, SS3 just made it happen faster. Goku would've resorted to the Genki Dama regardless, SS3 just served to drag the fight out longer before resorting to it (as entertaining as that fight was). I'm not saying I think it's awful or anything, just that it could've done something a bit more substantial.

As a red herring I suppose it worked. People probably assumed its power is what would've let Goku defeat the bad guy, like SS1 and SS2 before it, but in the end he couldn't power it up to full and the Genki Dama was needed instead. So...I suppose that's something. Never thought of that before now. If only the Genki Dama hadn't been used so prominently in the movies to the point that it wasn't as interesting to see anymore. But, I'm digressing a bit now.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:59 pm

As much as I like the movie, I kind of wish Goku contributed to Beerus going hostile on everyone at the party to fit in with how he's a dickhead just out to beat Beerus at all costs. Maybe have him steal some pudding or do something to make Boo grouchy?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:13 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:Xenoverse and FighterZ did nothing to be called best DB games. Especially FighterZ.
FighterZ did something that all previous games failed to do, have competent and not shallow fighting gameplay.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:59 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote:Xenoverse and FighterZ did nothing to be called best DB games. Especially FighterZ.
FighterZ did something that all previous games failed to do, have competent and not shallow fighting gameplay.
Exactly. Fighterz could literally have no single player features and people would still love it because the gameplay is so deep, creative and addicting. When was the last time we had a DB game in Evo?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Spider-Man » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:37 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: FighterZ did something that all previous games failed to do, have competent and not shallow fighting gameplay.
Exactly. Fighterz could literally have no single player features and people would still love it because the gameplay is so deep, creative and addicting. When was the last time we had a DB game in Evo?
This. Seriously I can't even play Xenoverse 2 anymore because how shallow the combat is, it just spaming the two same attack button with no directional inputs and then vanish until the stamina is out.
    No Dragon Ball Game had been in Evo up until FighterZ.
    Last edited by Spider-Man on Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Unpopular DB opinions

    Post by PFM18 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:44 pm

    Spider-Man wrote:
    PFM18 wrote:
    Neo-Makaiōshin wrote: FighterZ did something that all previous games failed to do, have competent and not shallow fighting gameplay.
    Exactly. Fighterz could literally have no single player features and people would still love it because the gameplay is so deep, creative and addicting. When was the last time we had a DB game in Evo?
    This. Seriously I can't even play Xenoverse 2 anymore because how shallow combat is it just square, square and square and then vanish until the stamina is out.
      No Dragon Ball Game had been in Evo up until FighterZ.
      But when Xenoverse 2 came out I thought it had depth in the gameplay. At the time it seemed pretty advanced and then the first time I played FighterZ with my friend we went nuts like it was amazing. I can never play another DB game at this point outside of maybe nostalgia reasons. FighterZ is just so much more interesting and creative in it's design.

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      Re: Unpopular DB opinions

      Post by Lukmendes » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:47 pm

      PFM18 wrote:
      Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
      sunsetshimmer wrote:Xenoverse and FighterZ did nothing to be called best DB games. Especially FighterZ.
      FighterZ did something that all previous games failed to do, have competent and not shallow fighting gameplay.
      Exactly. Fighterz could literally have no single player features and people would still love it because the gameplay is so deep, creative and addicting. When was the last time we had a DB game in Evo?
      Eh, having little to no single player content can backfire pretty bad as it happened with SFV (Well, among other mistakes they made...), and being a good fighting game and a good DB game are pretty different things, I hear that Super DBZ was alright as a fighting game but was bad as a DB game, not saying DBFZ is like that, just that the gameplay being deep is different from the game being a good DB game.
      jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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      Re: Unpopular DB opinions

      Post by Spider-Man » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:07 pm

      PFM18 wrote:
      But when Xenoverse 2 came out I thought it had depth in the gameplay. At the time it seemed pretty advanced and then the first time I played FighterZ with my friend we went nuts like it was amazing. I can never play another DB game at this point outside of maybe nostalgia reasons. FighterZ is just so much more interesting and creative in it's design.
      Huh funny I had the same experience but it was with Mortal Kombat 9 we went nuts with that game.
        I haven't played FighterZ yet but what I've seen so far it looks solid.
        Lukmendes wrote:
        Eh, having little to no single player content can backfire pretty bad as it happened with SFV (Well, among other mistakes they made...)
        I agreed with this, fighting game need to have a lot of content whether its offline or online which is the reason why so many people don't like Marvel vs Capcom 3 and SFV.

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        Re: Unpopular DB opinions

        Post by Noah » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:30 pm

        ABED wrote:Here's my unpopular opinion: Gohan's character arc is complete by the end of the Saiyan arc. Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 wasn't necessary. His potential had been realized several times prior. It's hardly this great culmination that had been built since his introduction.
        That's really unpopular. Gohan at the end of the Saiyan arc was still a side fighter whose potential could be reliable or not. It was on the RoSaT that he finally realized the many times he could have avoided suffering to his loved ones, if had the full control of his power.
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