Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:01 am

Scsigs wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:Again, that same movie established that an infant Saiyan was able to fly off a planet, into space, while carrying his father. I fail to see why the stabbing thing is where anyone should draw the line.

If you want a plausible in-universe explanation for how Broly survived being stabbed when Goku was hurt by a rock, you can argue that a person is more vulnerable when they’re asleep, even compared to an infant with a high battle power. That might sound like a reach to you, but considering that infants aren’t supposed to be super strong to begin with, you just have to take it for what it is. Either that or you could just accept that the DB movies were never intended to be anything more than side stories with no relation to the main series, and that since these movies are already full of inconsistencies with the actual story, complaining about a dagger should be the least of anyone’s concerns.
Because the stabbing happened BEFORE they flew off into space. Broly should be dead from the stabbing before any of that happens. That's a plot hole because it makes no sense.

Oh, I know that the Z movies were side stories made with no relation to the main series. That doesn't mean they can just bend the rules of the universe that Toriyama himself established over time & most of them don't, at least when it comes to the physics or amount of pain someone can take before they actually get hurt, depending on the person (Though the second Coller movie has Vegeta& Goku somehow get more energy when they were tapped dry, but one plot hole at a time here). Most of them don't have something as stupid as a baby surviving a stabbing. Broly literally gets stabbed in the chest with a dagger by a man with the intent to kill him. Here's an easy fix to that scene. Paragus doesn't get sentenced to death with Broly. However, Broly does & Paragus then finds out about it. He then steals Broly from the nursery before that happens. They take off in a space pod. The Saiyans then blast the pod before it can get anywhere, but it's too far out of their range of sight when it explodes, so when Broly envelops them in an energy barrier, they get away undetected.
See which part I take exception with here? Literally, it's a plot hole because that SHOULD HAVE killed Broly, but he doesn't die from it. You can't suspend disbelief from a plot hole like this, sorry. If Goku falling on a rock can give him enough brain damage so that it rewires his brain to forget his memories & become a nicer person, then Broly can die from a stabbing through the chest that was most likely through his heart. Even GOKU'S healing factor didn't heal him fast enough in the span of however long Broly & his father were left for dead.
Just because a plot hole may not bother you doesn't mean it's not a plot hole & that it won't bother anyone else.
Why do you keep saying “sorry”? Not only is it repetitive, it comes across as somewhat condescending. I’m not offended by you taking issue with Broly surviving being stabbed. I’m more so confused as to why you believe that’s something that contributes to the movie being bad, when Dragon Ball has never been consistent with what should and shouldn’t kill someone. This is the same franchise where a guy who was drained of his energy managed to survive getting a hole through his chest. Sure, he took a senzu, but there was nothing to indicate that senzus were capable of healing those kinds of injuries, only that they replenished a fighter’s energy for 10 days.

Anyway, I don’t want to get into an endless debate about this, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by zDBZ » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:05 am

Scsigs wrote:
zDBZ wrote:This is another big reason why the crying bit, silly though it is, doesn't bother me. The meat of Broly's story lies, really, with Paragus - his efforts to save his son, then to control his son, and finally, his doomed attempt to abandon his son, is interesting and well-written, IMO. The glimpses that story provides of Saiyan culture and what might have been going on those moments before the planet's destruction, and Paragus's efforts to manipulate Vegeta, are intriguing as well. Honestly, I feel that the big fight with Broly is the weakest part of the film; it's inconsistently animated and it goes on for too long. The backstory, and the thematic ideas (not always their execution) is where the strength of the film lies.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you're blatantly ignoring the bad parts to bolster the good parts. And that's the thing. The bad parts are the literal catalysts for some of the good parts. Broly being mentally unhinged causing his father to try to control him? Goku cried next to him in the nursery, then the older Saiyans watching over them made fun of him, which he somehow remembers. That's the biggest thing here. The good parts of the film are completely overshadowed by all the stupid. A serious story has to be logically consistent from all sides to work.
Let's take Loki from The Avengers, which also starts in Thor. He's not too different from Broly. Mentally unhinged, hates his father, focused on revenge, wants to take down the main hero. The difference is that Loki has a more believable backstory that's not out of the realm of disbelief, if a bit stupid, & his motivations make sense. Broly's are weak sauce, man. And you're using the only good parts of the movie; Paragus', to say the movie is better than it is. Yes, his plot in vastly more interesting than Broly's, but he's not the central focus. Broly is. Paragus' part is only the catalyst for the fight between everyone & Broly. It's literally a crutch so the main event of the movie can happen. It's not the main event as far as the writers of the movie were concerned, or most of the audiences who've ever watched the film. That's why I find parts of Broly's backstory utterly stupid & ridiculous even by Dragon Ball standards. The writers blatantly ignored their own stupidity & plot holes because they weren't focused on them. Usually Dragon Ball Z movies have plot holes involving the fact that they can't happen in the main timeline of the franchise because there are too many continuity errors between them. Also, the "long lost Saiyan(s) who survived Planet Vegeta's destruction" was done before & since, but a bit better than this movie's use of that plot point. Just the icing on the cake right there of why the movie is bad.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you didn't follow what I wrote.

I haven't commented on the quality of the film as a whole. What I said was that the strength of the film, IMO, is in the backstory and the thematic ideas, and that I feel those elements are good enough to take the edge off of the silliness of one of its weaker aspects - i.e., how they chose to illustrate one of those thematic ideas. YMMV.

But, in point of fact - Broly's instability is not wholly motivated by Goku's crying, nor do I think the film aims to imply that. That's meant to explain his hatred for Goku, but the raw power of the Legendary Super Saiyan, and the way it amplifies natural saiyan instincts, have just as much if not more to do with why he's such a wild monster that Paragus needs to control. Goku's presence proves the final push to let Broly snap free from control, but there was already a need for that control in the first place.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Omniboy » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:58 pm

Scsigs wrote: Because the stabbing happened BEFORE they flew off into space. Broly should be dead from the stabbing before any of that happens. That's a plot hole because it makes no sense.
I mean if your issue is of the believability of a baby being stabbed and surviving, and I don't mean to get dark, but there are stories of real babies surviving incidents that are just as bad, if not worse than what Broly endured...

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SheonGT » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:09 pm

I don't like Cooler. It's not even that he's poorly written or designed or anything. It's just that both of his movies are terribly boring.

Movie 5: Goku chills in a cave and then knocks Cooler into the sun

Movie 6: GOOD CELL SAGA MUSIC & somehow makes robots boring
Ask me about my love for the Faulconer Productions score!

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:30 pm

New Broly is garbage and much worse than old Broly.
He was meant to be different vision for this character and better written but turned out to be the same thing, just MUCH more brainless and stupid. The only thing he does is screaming for entire fight. Old Broly was psycho, but he was still thinking in battle and talking, at least in first movie. He was aware of everything he is doing, even after he turned into LSSJ he didn't go full rampage. Remember how he destroyed home of those little creatures? It wasn't random rampage destruction, he made sure they are looking. He did it on purpose.
Also, while the "i hate Goku because he was crying" thing was silly, hatred towards Goku was the most iconic thing about this character imo and the GOOD reboot of Broly would keep it but make it better explained than just stupid crying. It isn't Broly when he doesn't hate Goku to me, even if everything else is the same. Even anime Kale was more Broly than this 'Broly' :lol:

They left his fighting style, most of his design, his techniques and even his LSSJ transformation (called Full Power SSJ here). I'd actually prefer if they changed all of it. Especially LSSJ form that is the first thing that should disappear in reboot. His new fury form is actually something interesting and cool, but instead of improving that, they brought back his LSSJ form with the difference that in this movie this form is totally random. Old Broly turned into this form when Paragus lost control over him. This Broly just randomly goes LSSJ/FP in middle of battle. Yes, he goes LSSJ out of nowhere.

So how is he different and better than old Broly again? Because they added some stupid drama about him not being evil and just manipulated? Give me a break. It's the same character, just a lot worse :? Fury form was cool and bond between him and Paragus was pretty nice change (especially big impact on one scene), but other than that it's trash character.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cetra » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:26 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Broly just randomly goes LSSJ/FP in middle of battle. Yes, he goes LSSJ out of nowhere.
If they got rid of this AS WELL then they should not have brought him in at all. A bad LSSJ still gives him at least a teeny bit resemblance to exist as reboot character that adapted somewhat beloved of the old Broly.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:46 pm

Cetra wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote: Broly just randomly goes LSSJ/FP in middle of battle. Yes, he goes LSSJ out of nowhere.
If they got rid of this AS WELL then they should not have brought him in at all. A bad LSSJ still gives him at least a teeny bit resemblance to exist as reboot character that adapted somewhat beloved of the old Broly.
I disagree with that. They could give him new form, evolution of his fury form or just make him go fury later.
Keep his base design and backstory related to Goku, keep his new bond with Paragus, make him go psycho and fury after "something" happens (no spoilers), then he might lose his mind, but before that he should control himself at least in some degree. Meanwhile, he is wild animal even if he fight in base form. This would make entire drama much better than what we got, that was forced. After "that thing" he gets more angry but somehow nothing about him changes. This is the moment he should get completely mad and out of control, especially if Goku would be blamed for that instead of him. That would make him more interesting, better written, more likeable, more original and still linked to his old relationship with Goku. Actually, they could even skip his past with Goku but make him hate him now, at least until they reveal that Goku did nothing wrong. And i wouldn't say he would lose any resemblance to old Broly, because his anger and fighting style after getting mad would be here, hate to Goku would be there in some way and Paragaus as well as his hatred towards Vegeta would be there as well.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cetra » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:06 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Cetra wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote: Broly just randomly goes LSSJ/FP in middle of battle. Yes, he goes LSSJ out of nowhere.
If they got rid of this AS WELL then they should not have brought him in at all. A bad LSSJ still gives him at least a teeny bit resemblance to exist as reboot character that adapted somewhat beloved of the old Broly.
I disagree with that. They could give him new form, evolution of his fury form or just make him go fury later.
Keep his base design and backstory related to Goku, keep his new bond with Paragus, make him go psycho and fury after "something" happens (no spoilers), then he might lose his mind, but before that he should control himself at least in some degree. Meanwhile, he is wild animal even if he fight in base form. This would make entire drama much better than what we got, that was forced. After "that thing" he gets more angry but somehow nothing about him changes. This is the moment he should get completely mad and out of control, especially if Goku would be blamed for that instead of him. That would make him more interesting, better written, more likeable, more original and still linked to his old relationship with Goku. Actually, they could even skip his past with Goku but make him hate him now, at least until they reveal that Goku did nothing wrong. And i wouldn't say he would lose any resemblance to old Broly, because his anger and fighting style after getting mad would be here, hate to Goku would be there in some way and Paragaus as well as his hatred towards Vegeta would be there as well.
Broly never had a backstory related to Goku. At least not concerning what you seem to imply. This rumor needs to die. Its a mere symbol that they laid next to each other and that he cried to establish the connection of how he even knew the main character as baby and that their fates are intertwined. He does NOT, I repeat, NOT "hate him because of a cradle cry". Never once was that a thing. And yes, losing LSSJ completely renders Broly null because that is the pinnacle of what he is known for not "Paragus" or "being angry". You will not hear one fan say "Broly's so awesome! He's the son of Paragus!!!!" or "Broly is loved so much because Paragus had to keep him in check!!!! This is why we love him!"
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:51 pm

I think Broly and Kale can both be considered Legendary Super Saiyans. And by Broly I mean both the original and the new one.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Forte224 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:23 pm

ABED wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ABED wrote:Super Saiyan C? Glurg!!!!!!! Why does it have to be so damn convoluted.
It isn't. That's just a DB Wiki fan-made term
But why is anyone here using it? What does the C stand for?
They're using it because half the forum has become overrun with people obsessed with placing emphasis on "lore" and "world building" and what better way to do so than with using silly terms like Super Saiyan C?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:41 pm

Forte224 wrote:
ABED wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
It isn't. That's just a DB Wiki fan-made term
But why is anyone here using it? What does the C stand for?
They're using it because half the forum has become overrun with people obsessed with placing emphasis on "lore" and "world building" and what better way to do so than with using silly terms like Super Saiyan C?
Can you blame them? This is a Western forum, and Western IPs like Star Wars, Lost, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Superman, etc. all have such emphasis as part of their identity to the point there are extensive encyclopedias for them (sometimes multiple!) We even do the same thing for bands, like KISS, Gorillaz, and the Beatles.
Suspending that for one series shouldn't be beyond us, but it's still our "default setting" so to speak. It doesn't help that Dragon Ball itself used to indulge in this with the Daizenshuus and GT Super Files.
This sense that we can leave worldbuilding and encyclopedic terminology behind is a fairly new one in the Western fanbase, mostly coming as a result of Toriyama's return to the series and bringing it back to its more gag-heavy, canon-breaking, take-it-as-it-is roots.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:42 pm

Well, people know where I stand on the issue of lore and world building.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:23 pm

Super Saiyan 4 is a Super Saiyan form. Ikari is not.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:29 pm

Hulk10 wrote:Super Saiyan 4 is a Super Saiyan form. Ikari is not.
What's Ikari?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:34 pm

ABED wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:Super Saiyan 4 is a Super Saiyan form. Ikari is not.
What's Ikari?
Its the Wrathful form. Broly has spiky hair and yellow eyes.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:17 pm

Of course Broly's new form isn't SSJ. It's Oozaru's power in normal body, so basically x10 boost without turning into ape.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:28 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:Of course Broly's new form isn't SSJ. It's Oozaru's power in normal body, so basically x10 boost without turning into ape.
Yeah so I fail to see how it could be a way to add SSJ4 into the canon when its not even a Super Saiyan.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cetra » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:26 am

To distract from the conversaion going on above and bringing in a new post.

Reboot Broly is not a "deeper, more complex, fascinating" character. They specifically had to get rid of one of the two sides that he had to more establish the remaining one and the fact that people everytime ignore half of what Broly was about in his first movie shows it. The new Broly is "good" but he is not a successful re-introduction of Broly because he completely misses the mark rendering the reason to bring him in void. Even people like Vic Mignogna remember the most obvious parts of Broly. And those are important but a) they were not all he was about and b) removing them makes the re-introduction a failure. Complete erasure is not rebooting.

Actually that's not even that unpopular.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:52 pm

To be honest, this new Broly is rebooted. He is different than he was originally.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:33 am

Hulk10 wrote:To be honest, this new Broly is rebooted. He is different than he was originally.
Wasn't that the point?
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