Unpopular DB opinions

[Sailor Haumea]

Your entire series of posts here continues to prove a point that myself and others have been making for many years now: anime fandom throughout the 2000s to now has been very obsessively over-fixated on the present, what's happening RIGHT NOW this very second, to the exclusion and detriment of almost anything else (sometimes even the more RECENT past).

With "RIGHT NOW" you mean 20+ years ago, right?!

Because before I talked about what's happening RIGHT NOW, I gave you examples of sucessful shonens from the same era than DB, which I will repeat one last time - Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho, Rurouni Kenshin, Slam Dunk, Hajime no Ippo and Captain Tsubasa - to help explain my point of view.

You don't need go much further than this, because we're talking about GT and GT didn't air around the same time than City Hunter, Hokuto no Ken, Space Cobra...
I could have talked about the colossus that is Astro Boy, which stomps all the shonens you mentioned one by one, but I didn't.

No offense here, but with that comment you came out as an old man that refuses to believe that times have changed. For better or for worse, that happens and we are again in a different era now.

But this new era is formulaic drivel that basically sticks to a formula of "main character wants to be the strongest [insert occupation here] in the world"!

See: Naruto, Luffy, etc.

This formulaic nonsense got old about fifteen years ago.

[CriticalThinker]

Thought I'd give out some of my hot takes when it comes to DB:

Starting with Dragon Ball I think Launch is overrated and I personally never found her to be all that entertaining. Course I can see why people like her and all that but to me she was always meh, which was probably why I wasn't to disappointed when she wasn't around at the start of Z.

For Z I found Super saiyan to be pretty lazy transformation from a visual standpoint as all it was is Goku with a different hair color. Also the same reason why I don't care much for Super saiyan 2.

For Super I feel that Jiren is Toriyama's worst character design not because I think the design it self is bad but that it's very uninspired looking as well as being pretty dull, to me at least. Doesn't help that whenever I see him all I can think of is a buff ayy imao.

[Zephyr]

I think that your points definitely apply to games like Infinite Worlds, Burst Limit, and Shin Budokai. Maybe, possibly even Budokai 2 at the very most. Budokai 3 is in a weird spot where your points LARGELY apply to it, if not for stuff like Dragon Rush, which breaks up the gameplay SO often and so stupidly frequently that it genuinely disrupts the game's general flow into a staccato mess. It can be turned off thankfully, but even then you're still ultimately left with a game every bit as shallow and hollow as the others.

Budokai 1 though I will ABSOLUTELY argue for as being effectively broken and unplayable. Go back and play it now: the controls are clunky, cumbersome, and stilted in the extreme. It BARELY passes muster above a game like Sagas in terms of basic-most playability. Barely.

For what it's worth, I've never played Infinite World or either of the Shin Budokai games.

Yeah, Dragon Rush makes things enormously tedious. That's about the biggest thing I can see being held against these games that actively pushes any of them below that mediocrity line (with the lack of relative depth and challenge being what keeps them from rising above it). That and the odd forced cinematic bits in Burst Limit.

I haven't touched Budokai 1 in ages (and I don't own it anymore, so I can neither confirm nor falsify my memory of my intuition here), but for what little it might be worth: at the time I first got Budokai 2, I don't remember noticing any radical improvements in playability. The only large differences were the ability to use the standard specials, ala Kamehameha, by pressing one button + forward, and additional interactivity for Ultimates (and I sincerely doubt either of these would be sufficient to elevate your evaluation). Anyone else with immediate access to both (or loads of recent experience with both) is free to chime in with further clarification, but: I'm unconvinced that Budokai 1 is any way more broken and unplayable than Budokai 2.

Moreover, I played a substantial amount of Budokai 2 a couple of years back, and it held up entirely to the standards of basic playability, whereas Sagas, which I also played again around the same time, did not. I don't remember my precise gripes with Sagas; they could have been anywhere from framerate dips, unresponsive inputs, buggy lock-on, attacks not connecting when they should have, etc. Regardless, I vividly remember them being pronounced enough to cut my reunion with it very short. With Budokai 2, in stark contrast, my reunion went on for at least a solid week of long play sessions.

With these points, taken together, I'm inclined against the assertion that even Budokai 1 qualifies for a description like "rancid dogshit". If I have time later tonight, I might fool around with both Budokai 2 and Sagas to get more specific thoughts down, though.

[GamerSkull]

Ultra Instinct is the only good technique/transformation to come out of DBS.

[Grimlock]

Ultra Instinct is the only good technique/transformation to come out of DBS.

And it would have been even better, if only Saiyans (namely Goku) didn't have so many transformations already. Just imagine: Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, and now they (Goku) got Ultra Instinct transformation. Two forms related to Saiyans, plus "two" that many can achieve it too. What a beautiful world it would be.

The reality can be so painful...

[GamerSkull]

Ultra Instinct is the only good technique/transformation to come out of DBS.

And it would have been even better, if only Saiyans (namely Goku) didn't have so many transformations. Just imagine: Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, and now they (Goku) got Ultra Instinct transformation. Two forms related to Saiyans, plus "two" that many can achieve it too.

The reality can be so painful...

I actually really dislike SSG and SSB. I just think they feel really lazy. And I still prefer the black hair UI look for Goku.

[Grimlock]

I actually really dislike SSG and SSB. I just think they feel really lazy. And I still prefer the black hair UI look for Goku.

Yeah. Super Saiyan Second Grade, Super Saiyan Third Grade, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should have never been introduced, they really do nothing other than increasing unnecessarily the amount of transformations for Saiyans.

[GamerSkull]

I actually really dislike SSG and SSB. I just think they feel really lazy. And I still prefer the black hair UI look for Goku.

Yeah. Super Saiyan Second Grade, Super Saiyan Third Grade, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should have never been introduced, they really do nothing other than increasing unnecessarily the amount of transformations for Saiyans.

Yeah, I’ve said it before but I personally believe Super Saiyan should have only been achieved by Goku (and maybe Trunks) and Gohan should have been the only one to get BOTH SSJ and SSJ2.

But that’s where a lot of people disagree with me.

[Kunzait_83]

Ultra Instinct was a great addition because its not even so much a "transformation" as it is a general state of mind and fighting style. And its also a very classic martial arts concept (both in real life, in "grounded" kung fu fiction, and in fantastical wuxia) that's totally in keeping with the spirit of DB. But yeah, totally should've just been left the way it was introduced: the "mastered" version just adds to the whole annoying and lame "Skittles Flavored SSJ" motif that Super's been running itself into the ground with.

God Ki itself was another perfectly fine classic wuxia concept to bring in (one that I'm genuinely shocked was never used in the original series honestly, especially by the Boo arc): but having not only one, but TWO SSJ forms attached to it, especially ones so lazily designed... yeah. Not so hot.

I think that ultimately the concepts BEHIND the new SSJ transformations (God Ki and Mushin/Wuxin) are absolutely rock solid and totally understandable and valid ideas to bring into a new DB series. The actual transformations in and of themselves though, particularly as executed design-wise... Pretty lame and drag the whole thing down to the level of self-parody.

[PsionicWarrior]

SSJG looks cool.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I haven't touched Budokai 1 in ages (and I don't own it anymore, so I can neither confirm nor falsify my memory of my intuition here), but for what little it might be worth: at the time I first got Budokai 2, I don't remember noticing any radical improvements in playability. The only large differences were the ability to use the standard specials, ala Kamehameha, by pressing one button + forward, and additional interactivity for Ultimates (and I sincerely doubt either of these would be sufficient to elevate your evaluation). Anyone else with immediate access to both (or loads of recent experience with both) is free to chime in with further clarification, but: I'm unconvinced that Budokai 1 is any way more broken and unplayable than Budokai 2.

Budokai 1's hit detection and animations are unfinished (as its sequels can let us quantify) and stiff enough to make you unsure of when you can and cannot actually land an attack. Budokai 2 fixed all of that. On paper its not a mechanical change, it just made what Budokai 1 wanted to do consistently work and just feel good. Beyond that I agree; they're baby fighters with odd design choices at times, but they are 6-7/10 games that look lonely clogging retailer shelves two, three plus years after their intended sell period, not destined for rotting trash heap ten miles out from the city walls. Not in the first or second batch, anyway.

SSJG looks cool.

I am with Toriyama on that- amazing aura (the thing is practically alive, I swear) aside it does have a final Freeza back-to-basics thing going. Goku climbed the peaks and came down more himself than he was most of the trip up.

Ultra Instinct was a great addition because its not even so much a "transformation" as it is a general state of mind and fighting style. And its also a very classic martial arts concept (both in real life, in "grounded" kung fu fiction, and in fantastical wuxia) that's totally in keeping with the spirit of DB. But yeah, totally should've just been left the way it was introduced: the "mastered" version just adds to the whole annoying and lame "Skittles Flavored SSJ" motif that Super's been running itself into the ground with.

What makes the distinction worse still is that the closer it gets to a proper transformation, the closer we get toward treating it as another quantifiable power up- which, even if it does work that way in practice, feels like its missing the point. I think I actually wouldn't take as much issue with that had we not had the very sudden God forms just prior. Had Goku gone from Super Saiyan 3, the fruit of unnatural labor only a dedicated maniac like Goku would push out of himself (Gotenks notwithstanding), then rubberbanded in the other direction toward perfect awareness and control (or lack thereof!), from increasingly obscene and fruitless regimens to something else entirely, it would have been a much clearer transition and emphasized that Goku got there because of his discipline and circumstances, as was meant to be the point. The two God forms just let us skirt that question entirely (even when Vegeta acknowledges the problem) for a few years.

[Hawk9211]

Ultra Instinct was a great addition because its not even so much a "transformation" as it is a general state of mind and fighting style. And its also a very classic martial arts concept (both in real life, in "grounded" kung fu fiction, and in fantastical wuxia) that's totally in keeping with the spirit of DB. But yeah, totally should've just been left the way it was introduced: the "mastered" version just adds to the whole annoying and lame "Skittles Flavored SSJ" motif that Super's been running itself into the ground with.

God Ki itself was another perfectly fine classic wuxia concept to bring in (one that I'm genuinely shocked was never used in the original series honestly, especially by the Boo arc): but having not only one, but TWO SSJ forms attached to it, especially ones so lazily designed... yeah. Not so hot.

I think that ultimately the concepts BEHIND the new SSJ transformations (God Ki and Mushin/Wuxin) are absolutely rock solid and totally understandable and valid ideas to bring into a new DB series. The actual transformations in and of themselves though, particularly as executed design-wise... Pretty lame and drag the whole thing down to the level of self-parody.

God ki is the most underused concept.It was reduced to a a power up and may be undetectable ki.While you can assume that hakai and similar techniques require god ki it is never expanded on.In hindsight,it is just a power up like super saiyan.

[nickzambuto]

I don't get your point at all. With the exception of Vegeta, the main cast are young or appear young. What about stories with older characters do you believe doesn't resonate with younger audiences?

When we say young we're talking adolescent.

Gohan is approaching middle aged and Goten, Trunks, and Oob are all in their 20s, correct me if I'm wrong. This would mean the only main cast member who is naturally shonen aged is Pan.

[DragonBallKing]

As much as I respect the man Yanami Jouji's naration in this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbqTh8PC7aI just feels out of place IMO, I feel the scene would have worked better without it. Not sure if the kai did it accurately but they had something similar but as an inner monologue for cell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9-N6ivPP44

[ABED]

I don't get your point at all. With the exception of Vegeta, the main cast are young or appear young. What about stories with older characters do you believe doesn't resonate with younger audiences?

When we say young we're talking adolescent.

Gohan is approaching middle aged and Goten, Trunks, and Oob are all in their 20s, correct me if I'm wrong. This would mean the only main cast member who is naturally shonen aged is Pan.

How is Gohan approaching middle age in GT? He's in his early 30s. 20s is very young.

[Kunzait_83]

How is Gohan approaching middle age in GT? He's in his early 30s. 20s is very young.

To be fair, we're talking about a fanbase who very often in many cases (which you can find plenty examples of throughout this forum's history) opines solemnly about themselves "getting old" as soon as they hit 20 in real life. Sometimes even their latter teens. Safe to say, there's a segment of the audience here who has some VERY warped and skewed views about aging out of childhood and adolescence in general.

[Alruneia]

Gohan is approaching middle aged and Goten, Trunks, and Oob are all in their 20s, correct me if I'm wrong.

In GT, which takes place in 789/790,
Gohan is 31/32 (biologically +1 year due to his Cell arc time chamber stay)
Goten is 22/23
Trunks is 23/24
Uub is 15/16
Pan is 10/11
Bulla is 9/10

[ABED]

So apparently I'm approaching middle age because Gohan and I are both 32.

[jeffbr92]

Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection F, Dragon Ball Super should have never happened and Norihito Sumitomo should have never been hired as the official composer for Dragon Ball.

That's bitter. Although I think Dragon Ball is a complete story (all DB/Z anime episodes and all manga volumes). It was nice to see new stories coming up, they being good or not, are up to debate.

As much as I respect the man Yanami Jouji's naration in this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbqTh8PC7aI just feels out of place IMO, I feel the scene would have worked better without it. Not sure if the Kai did it accurately but they had something similar but as an inner monologue for Cell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9-N6ivPP44

I agree with your opinion,I think Kai did a better job than Z... But was that monologue on the original manga?

[DBZAOTA482]

The Budokai series from start to end is rancid shit, with the music being the only redeeming quality. They're HUGELY overrated.

They might not be terribly deep as fighting games, but that's hardly sufficient to call anything "rancid shit".

Nah, I think rancid shit's fairly warranted for most of these games. Budokai's 1 through 3 in particular are downright unplayable. Infinite World is only VERY MILDLY less crappy, Burst Limit is a complete nothing, and the Shin Budokai games only just baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarely managed to squeak into the realm of just this side of passable by the skin of their teeth.

The series is dogshit, always has been, and its been kept afloat in the eyes of fandom throughout the years 100% entirely by A) nostalgia and B) a playerbase who, by and large at least, generally doesn't care about fighting games in a broader sense nor knows much of anything about them and just wants a mindless button mash-fest (with no special moves and no real combo system to speak of) that simply has the DBZ cast's cel-shaded faces plastered onto it, confusing a large roster and tedious unlockables with "depth".

The overwhelming majority of Budokai's fans, by their own admission, had glommed onto it when they were only very, very small children who (in many cases) had never played any other real fighting games beforehand and had nothing at all to critically compare it to, lacking in both context and standards. Many of them today simply continue to let the series skate on by with a pass either out of lingering sentimental goodwill from those childhood memories (an ongoing trend in general with this fanbase) or having never at any point since grown into "real" fighting games.

Everything that makes the Budokai games such utter failures is all the more highlighted now with the presence of serious, legit Dragon Ball fighting games like FighterZ and even Super DBZ well before it. And that's just within the "modern" context, setting aside much older DBZ fighting games like Super Battle, Hyper Dimension, and most of the Butouden series, all of which also thoroughly eat Budokai's lunch.

When in order to find something worse, you have to scrape as low as Taiketsu and Final Bout... yeah, that doesn't really speak too well for these games at all.

Speak for yourself, webster. My gateway into the fighting game genre was Tekken and I still love Budokai. Please stop being a hater and generalizing Budokai fans as nostalgia-obsessed idiots.

Also, Butoden and Hyper Dimension are way overrated games if anything. Clunky, stupidly unbalanced (Vegito always shits on everyone), and are Street Fighter II clones (the only real reason people seriously vouch for them as fighting games). There's a reason why TOSE don't make DBZ games anymore particularly with their 5th gen efforts and why every Butoden spiritual successor plays nothing like those obsolete games. If it's eating Budokai's "lunch" then it's eating its dust.

Even Super DBZ isn't as hot as some people here make it out to be either. Very linear, mechanics that should be available from the start are locked to the customization system, and a roster that's pitiful even compared to other fighters. It's also missing a lot of DBZ fighting game staples.