Unpopular DB opinions

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ABED
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:05 pm

I don't like it taking over because after a lengthy run, when has switching the main character been for the better? I'm not a fan of it, never have been. Stories reflect their main character, so I don't think Gohan is suited for the role of DB's main character.

Mr. Satan's popularity became vital to the ending, as was befriending Buu. His contributions didn't have to do with his power, which is what you keep bringing up with Videl.

If Videl is going to contribute, I'd rather it not be something that has to do with her power. She's completely outclassed. I think it makes more sense to make her important to concluding Gohan's story. Perhaps her bridging normal earthlings and the greater mystical world that most Earthlings are oblivious to would work, but I don't buy her being vital to defeating Buu.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:12 pm

SmugStick wrote:So I’ve already posted here but surprisingl most of my opinions were fairl pelted. But here’s a new one; Gotenks has absolutely become my favorite character in Dragon Ball, only rivaled by Krillin but winning by a slight margin because of his design. Gotenks is the best fusion and one of the best characters ever.
Gotenks is definitely one of my favorites too

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Brodes » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:00 pm

I know that is not as unpopular as I think, but Broli is probably the worst thing to happen to this franchise.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:29 pm

I know this being discussed to death and I don't remeber ever getting a consensus on it, but since TFS had brought it:

Why people think Gohan was not OOC on Cell Games? The dude raged on Raditz, Nappa, went mad on Freeza because of Krillin and Piccolo (even though they were not killed), then he trained with Goku for the sole purpose of fighting to save the planet from Cell and yet he avoids doing so?

The Cell Juniors situation would be more than enough to trigger Saiyan/Namek Gohan but he needed a guy who he barely interacted to say him the words to finally unleash his true power?

Sure the scene was powerful, but I can't avoid thinking on how he looked a different character there from the past two arcs.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by zDBZ » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:51 am

Noah wrote:I know this being discussed to death and I don't remeber ever getting a consensus on it, but since TFS had brought it:

Why people think Gohan was not OOC on Cell Games? The dude raged on Raditz, Nappa, went mad on Freeza because of Krillin and Piccolo (even though they were not killed), then he trained with Goku for the sole purpose of fighting to save the planet from Cell and yet he avoids doing so?

The Cell Juniors situation would be more than enough to trigger Saiyan/Namek Gohan but he needed a guy who he barely interacted to say him the words to finally unleash his true power?

Sure the scene was powerful, but I can't avoid thinking on how he looked a different character there from the past two arcs.
In all other instances (except Raditz, but that was such a spontaneous event), Gohan was part of a group of fighters working together to fight a powerful enemy. Gohan was prepared to stand alone against Nappa, Vegeta, and Recoome, but only after everyone else's ability to fight was exhausted. With Cell, Gohan was thrown out to fight him alone when a whole roster of other fighters - including his father, who had been holding his own and who everyone assumed was their leader/best bet in the battle - were available. Gohan's also older in the Cell saga, and more aware of how explosive and dangerous his anger is, and seems more afraid of it.

Is it a totally seamless development for him? No. It's a fairly big shift that isn't explicitly detailed. But I don't think it's an unreasonable or uncharacteristic development either.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:35 pm

Kokonoe wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
8000 Saiyan wrote:It's been quite a while since I've seen a Beast Wars episode, but I don't recall everyone hamming it up all the time. It's an exaggeration by our dear friend Witty.
That sounds like a vaguely passive agressive remark.

Anyway, I don’t see why what I said should be so controversial, and I don’t understand why you felt the need to bring up some remark I made about an unrelated show over a year ago. I’m just not a fan of Ocean productions. It’s as simple as that.
These same people within the past year or so went super deep in some pre-Kai dub hate and failing to accept opinions in favor of it without a twist of biasy associated with it so it's just par for the course for them.

Though it is ironic the tables have turned when it is a dub they find favorable in whatever level they do.
Here's the thing though. I do accept opinions, but I feel that Mr. WittyUsername is exaggerating how hammy the acting in Beast Wars was to put down their work.

I can assure you that not everyone in that show was hamming it up all the time.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:00 pm

zDBZ wrote:In all other instances (except Raditz, but that was such a spontaneous event), Gohan was part of a group of fighters working together to fight a powerful enemy. Gohan was prepared to stand alone against Nappa, Vegeta, and Recoome, but only after everyone else's ability to fight was exhausted. With Cell, Gohan was thrown out to fight him alone when a whole roster of other fighters - including his father, who had been holding his own and who everyone assumed was their leader/best bet in the battle - were available. Gohan's also older in the Cell saga, and more aware of how explosive and dangerous his anger is, and seems more afraid of it.

Is it a totally seamless development for him? No. It's a fairly big shift that isn't explicitly detailed. But I don't think it's an unreasonable or uncharacteristic development either.
So you're telling me that Goku on the year they expend together on the RoSaT, didn't even think about preparing Gohan to fight on his place? This is Super level of stupid. I mean I get that he did wanted to keep this a secret from the others, but from his own son that he was using as a trump card?

I don't know what was Toriyama thinking at time, you say is not exactly unreasonable or uncharacteristic, but I still disagree about the latter. The 10 days before the Cell Games could be used to somewhat develop better the plot surrouding Gohan.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by zDBZ » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:34 pm

Noah wrote:
zDBZ wrote:In all other instances (except Raditz, but that was such a spontaneous event), Gohan was part of a group of fighters working together to fight a powerful enemy. Gohan was prepared to stand alone against Nappa, Vegeta, and Recoome, but only after everyone else's ability to fight was exhausted. With Cell, Gohan was thrown out to fight him alone when a whole roster of other fighters - including his father, who had been holding his own and who everyone assumed was their leader/best bet in the battle - were available. Gohan's also older in the Cell saga, and more aware of how explosive and dangerous his anger is, and seems more afraid of it.

Is it a totally seamless development for him? No. It's a fairly big shift that isn't explicitly detailed. But I don't think it's an unreasonable or uncharacteristic development either.
So you're telling me that Goku on the year they expend together on the RoSaT, didn't even think about preparing Gohan to fight on his place? This is Super level of stupid. I mean I get that he did wanted to keep this a secret from the others, but from his own son that he was using as a trump card?

I don't know what was Toriyama thinking at time, you say is not exactly unreasonable or uncharacteristic, but I still disagree about the latter. The 10 days before the Cell Games could be used to somewhat develop better the plot surrouding Gohan.
Well - I was referring to Gohan by that comment. If you want to argue that it's unreasonable for Goku to have never once explained his plan to his son - I would agree, and to an extent, it's out-of-character as well. But only to an extent; that Goku wouldn't tell his son what he was up to may be a stretch, but that Goku wouldn't realize that his son doesn't have the same zest for fighting, I can believe.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:55 pm

Goku tells Gohan if he wants to be a scholar, he has to defeat Cell first. Maybe it's in character if that he could miss that his son doesn't have a lust for fighting, but we have evidence that he does know.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:50 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
That sounds like a vaguely passive agressive remark.

Anyway, I don’t see why what I said should be so controversial, and I don’t understand why you felt the need to bring up some remark I made about an unrelated show over a year ago. I’m just not a fan of Ocean productions. It’s as simple as that.
These same people within the past year or so went super deep in some pre-Kai dub hate and failing to accept opinions in favor of it without a twist of biasy associated with it so it's just par for the course for them.

Though it is ironic the tables have turned when it is a dub they find favorable in whatever level they do.
Here's the thing though. I do accept opinions, but I feel that Mr. WittyUsername is exaggerating how hammy the acting in Beast Wars was to put down their work.

I can assure you that not everyone in that show was hamming it up all the time.
Those comments were made over a year ago, and I wasn’t even expressing hate for BW then, so I have no idea why you even felt the need to bring them up.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:41 pm

I don't think ssj is a set multiplier , I think of it as a mass of strength that is excessable when transformed

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:31 am

Ssjcell wrote:I don't think ssj is a set multiplier , I think of it as a mass of strength that is excessable when transformed
Agreed. I know why people think it is, but the way the characters talk about going beyond Super Saiyan makes it sound like eventually the power gains plateau neccessitating having to reach another level of Super Saiyan. If I recall, they use terms like "barrier".
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ssjcell » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:I don't think ssj is a set multiplier , I think of it as a mass of strength that is excessable when transformed
Agreed. I know why people think it is, but the way the characters talk about going beyond Super Saiyan makes it sound like eventually the power gains plateau neccessitating having to reach another level of Super Saiyan. If I recall, they use terms like "barrier".
Yeah when you think about it they don't start out at full power they can reach greater heights the more they power up the next level they can power up more

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:24 pm

ABED wrote:Ripper, that sounds great, but I don't agree with any of it. It's not even subtext. It's just not true. Goku doesn't really ever struggle with his Saiyan heritage very much beyond when he first hears about it. Other than that, he's at ease with it. He didn't undergo a dark change when Kuririn was killed. He got upset because his best friend was murdered. That's not a change of character, it's a change in mood. And if Goku learns the different between good and evil off screen, that's crappy writing. I don't mean to sound rude, but everything you wrote sounds good on paper, but is more or less you trying to make things sound deeper than they truly are.

i don't think he's at ease. sure he's not losing sleep over it but he still hasn't even totally accepted himself as a Saiyan. There are more important matters like saving the world, rescuing the world,etc. that force him to not be too sad about it. it's not just accepting what he is (A Saiyan) but becoming more like a Saiyan which is increasingly becoming more ok with risking lives for the sake of a good fight like he showed in Android arc where even after the warning Goku refused to kill Androids because he wanted to fight them, that's clearly something Goku would only do after the events of Namek.

Killing to avenge a friend or vengefully is dark. it's not as dark as the Anime like Hellsing or Berserk, but it itself is still a dark characterization and situation. we have never seen Goku with such murderous intent like how he doesn't hesitate in killing drum and Tambourine.

the Good and Evil thing doesnt have to be explicitly shown. There is such a thing as implications, and it makes perfect sense when you think about kid Goku's actions before training with God and God's role as a what they call him in the dub aka "Guardian of the Earth" aka he watches over living things and has experienced wars, bad sides of humanity, etc. and is the definite symbol of wisdom.

i am not adding depth saying what's implied. you believe that Goku after staying with the embodiment of Wisdom, the GOD for three years won't learn those basic things?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:02 pm

I don't think he became any more of a Saiyan nor became more and more okay with risking other's lives. The way I see it, he's fundamentally the same as he's always been, but the stakes have increased as the level of power he deals with increases. He would've allowed the cyborgs to be activated before his time on Namek. He let Piccolo and Vegeta go for that very reason - to fight them.
Killing to avenge a friend or vengefully is dark.
The situation is dark, but it's not wrong in this context. Murder and justifiable homicide aren't the same thing. Goku has every justification in DB world to kill demons like Piccolo and his progeny. Of course we never saw Goku in such a rage. One of the people closest to him has never been murdered!
i am not adding depth saying what's implied. you believe that Goku after staying with the embodiment of Wisdom, the GOD for three years won't learn those basic things?
Not really. For one, Kami barely oversees his training as we learn at the 23rd TB. And second, none of what you talk about is implied. Goku becomes a better fighter, but he's very much the same guy as an adult as when he was a kid.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tavarano » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:30 pm

ABED wrote:Goku tells Gohan if he wants to be a scholar, he has to defeat Cell first. Maybe it's in character if that he could miss that his son doesn't have a lust for fighting, but we have evidence that he does know.
He might have been aware but that doesn't mean he cares, the whole pep talk Goku gives sounds like manipulation and lip service typical for Goku.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:38 pm

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:Goku tells Gohan if he wants to be a scholar, he has to defeat Cell first. Maybe it's in character if that he could miss that his son doesn't have a lust for fighting, but we have evidence that he does know.
He might have been aware but that doesn't mean he cares, the whole pep talk Goku gives sounds like manipulation and lip service typical for Goku.
When does Goku manipulate his friends and family? He cares about his son. And while I have no doubt he doesn't really care that much about studying, the question was whether Goku knows if his son doesn't want to fight. He does so question answered.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tavarano » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:Goku tells Gohan if he wants to be a scholar, he has to defeat Cell first. Maybe it's in character if that he could miss that his son doesn't have a lust for fighting, but we have evidence that he does know.
He might have been aware but that doesn't mean he cares, the whole pep talk Goku gives sounds like manipulation and lip service typical for Goku.
When does Goku manipulate his friends and family? He cares about his son. And while I have no doubt he doesn't really care that much about studying, the question was whether Goku knows if his son doesn't want to fight. He does so question answered.
The scenes are ambigous, but if you are to go by Vegeta's comment at the end of the manga, then this one comes to mind, the one where Goku is convincing ChiChi to let Gohan go train before androids' arrival and when Goku encourages Uub to go train with him. If Goku's primary motivation is fighting and getting stronger then using protecting Earth as an argument sounds like manipulation. There's also the scene where Goku wants Krilin and Gohan to get away from his fight with Nappa and Vegeta telling them that it's for their safety, but Goku's argumentation falls apart considering that he makes them fight Vegeta later, and lets Vegeta go admitting that he will try to kill them again, can be interpreted as Goku wanting challenging fight without interference, much like he does in his fight versus Piccolo Jr.
Does it really answer the question? One can enjoy a fight and want to become a scholar.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by zDBZ » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:37 pm

A few more:

- If Kai is an undeniably better performed dub more faithful to the spirit of its source, there are a not-insignificant number of scenes where the looser adaptation of the original Z dub made for better dialogue. "This is to go even further beyond," "throw you into the wind," and Piccolo's parting words to Vegeta are the three that come to mind off-hand.
- Reviving Freeza in Super - whether for Resurrection F, the Tournament of Power, or any other reason - was a bad decision that cheapens and diminishes his character.
- The length of that five minutes on Namek never once bothered me in watching the series.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:30 pm

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote: He might have been aware but that doesn't mean he cares, the whole pep talk Goku gives sounds like manipulation and lip service typical for Goku.
When does Goku manipulate his friends and family? He cares about his son. And while I have no doubt he doesn't really care that much about studying, the question was whether Goku knows if his son doesn't want to fight. He does so question answered.
The scenes are ambigous, but if you are to go by Vegeta's comment at the end of the manga, then this one comes to mind, the one where Goku is convincing ChiChi to let Gohan go train before androids' arrival and when Goku encourages Uub to go train with him. If Goku's primary motivation is fighting and getting stronger then using protecting Earth as an argument sounds like manipulation. There's also the scene where Goku wants Krilin and Gohan to get away from his fight with Nappa and Vegeta telling them that it's for their safety, but Goku's argumentation falls apart considering that he makes them fight Vegeta later, and lets Vegeta go admitting that he will try to kill them again, can be interpreted as Goku wanting challenging fight without interference, much like he does in his fight versus Piccolo Jr.
Does it really answer the question? One can enjoy a fight and want to become a scholar.
I don’t agree with this reading of Goku as manipulative. He’s loves fighting and he’s definitely motivated by finding stronger opponents, but he also clearly wants to protect the Earth as well. He’s not using it as a way to manipulate people into letting him train Gohan or Oob. His motivations are layered. He loves a good fight more than anything, but Goku also consistently protects the planet and his friends when the time comes.

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