Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:14 am

zDBZ wrote: - The length of that five minutes on Namek never once bothered me in watching the series.
In my experience people aren't bothered by the five minutes per se, but rather see it as a memeable one liner. Even the Tournament of Power was poking fun at it to appease long time fans.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:14 am

I'm going to tell some facts that are commonly unaccepted by the community, even if all true

1) goten and trunks in early buu saga are almost as strong as base gohan, so their base form is cell games tier

2) gohan , goten, trunks and even pan in gt are much much stronger than super vegetto and buuhan from dbz

3)ssj4 is not x4000 base form, and , in gt, classic z multipliers doesn't work. In fact, in gt ssj Is x2 instead rof x50

4) gotenks in buu saga Is much stringere than goku, in factssj gotenks pre training in stronger than ssj3 goku, and after the training base gotenks is maybe stronger than fat buu

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:57 am

I don't see where the manipulation is when he convinces Chichi to let Gohan train.
Goku doesn't make Kuririn and Gohan fight Vegeta. They come back of their own accord.

My unpopular opinion is the early part of the Buu arc (Great Saiyaman, Orange Star High School) is mostly boring.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:11 pm

The first half of the Red Ribbon Army arc is the original series’ low point.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:22 pm

The scaling in the DBS anime isn't bad and is comparable in quality to that of the DBZ anime.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by CTAkuma » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:49 pm

1:I'd be fine if we never see Caulifla, Kale, Jiren etc. again
2:Goku and Vegeta getting the most attention is a good thing
3:Humans should retire from fighting entirely

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tavarano » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:08 am

OhHiRenan wrote:I don’t agree with this reading of Goku as manipulative. He’s loves fighting and he’s definitely motivated by finding stronger opponents, but he also clearly wants to protect the Earth as well. He’s not using it as a way to manipulate people into letting him train Gohan or Oob. His motivations are layered. He loves a good fight more than anything, but Goku also consistently protects the planet and his friends when the time comes.
Goku did lie to Majin Vegeta that he's going to go fight at his best and end the fight quickly to not release Buu, withheld truth from everyone before Cell Games and attempted to lie his way out of telling the crew about the androids. There is no reason to assume that whatever Goku says is honest. This was one of Goku's descriptions by Toriyama - "I suppose that Goku's motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.", I see Goku being manipulative when he sends Gohan and Krilin away, they react with full shock to what Goku says too and try to convince him otherwise.
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Last edited by Tavarano on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:19 am

Tavarano wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:I don’t agree with this reading of Goku as manipulative. He’s loves fighting and he’s definitely motivated by finding stronger opponents, but he also clearly wants to protect the Earth as well. He’s not using it as a way to manipulate people into letting him train Gohan or Oob. His motivations are layered. He loves a good fight more than anything, but Goku also consistently protects the planet and his friends when the time comes.
Goku did lie to Majin Vegeta that he's going to go fight at his best and end the fight quickly to not release Buu, withheld truth from everyone before Cell Games and attempted to lie his way out of telling the crew about the androids. There is no reason to assume that whatever Goku says is honest. This was one of Goku's descriptions by Toriyama - "I suppose that Goku's motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.", I see Goku being manipulative when he sends Gohan and Krilin away, they react with full shock to what Goku says too and try to convince him otherwise.
SSJ3 is the result of a retcon, and even so, Vegeta isn't his friend. He doesn't owe him the truth.

Goku never lied about the cyborgs.

You are wrong about him sending them away. He was genuine about that. He didn't want them in harm's way. They came back to help him of their own accord.

At most, I can give you the Cell Games, but that never made sense from any perspective. I chalk it up to Toriyama trying to keep the reveal from the audience, because it makes ZERO sense to keep his plan from his friends and Gohan. How does that manipulate them into getting what he wants?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Tavarano » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:I don’t agree with this reading of Goku as manipulative. He’s loves fighting and he’s definitely motivated by finding stronger opponents, but he also clearly wants to protect the Earth as well. He’s not using it as a way to manipulate people into letting him train Gohan or Oob. His motivations are layered. He loves a good fight more than anything, but Goku also consistently protects the planet and his friends when the time comes.
Goku did lie to Majin Vegeta that he's going to go fight at his best and end the fight quickly to not release Buu, withheld truth from everyone before Cell Games and attempted to lie his way out of telling the crew about the androids. There is no reason to assume that whatever Goku says is honest. This was one of Goku's descriptions by Toriyama - "I suppose that Goku's motive was that no matter what kind of enemy there was, he wanted to fight them one-on-one.", I see Goku being manipulative when he sends Gohan and Krilin away, they react with full shock to what Goku says too and try to convince him otherwise.
SSJ3 is the result of a retcon, and even so, Vegeta isn't his friend. He doesn't owe him the truth.

Goku never lied about the cyborgs.

You are wrong about him sending them away. He was genuine about that. He didn't want them in harm's way. They came back to help him of their own accord.

At most, I can give you the Cell Games, but that never made sense from any perspective. I chalk it up to Toriyama trying to keep the reveal from the audience, because it makes ZERO sense to keep his plan from his friends and Gohan. How does that manipulate them into getting what he wants?
We're analyzing in-universe so Goku deliberately lied to Vegeta, he also lied to Krilin, Piccolo, Dende, Popo, Goten and Trunks as he told them all that he can't beat Buu, he only revealed SSJ3 when situation became critical - Bulma said that if her lab is destroyed she won't be able to rebuild the dragon ball radar, and even then didn't defeat Buu, so it's consistent that he hid it on purpose and didn't want to use it. And if you want to look out-universe then Toriyama did reveal Goku's true intentions in several other instances - versus Frieza he's avenging Krilin, Saiyans and Namekians at first but ends up telling Frieza to learn few new tricks so they can fight again, Goku's death with Cell seems heroic but then Goku just used the opportunity to get a body in the afterlife to train with strong martial artists of the past.

With androids Piccolo forced it out, and Goku started acting goofily when the crew started asking him about the dialogue with Future Trunks with his first answer being "nothing much", just like he acted goofily throughout the days before Cell Games not saying anything.

As to Goku sending them away due to not wanting them to get hurt, what about these 2? Especially the second one to which Goku doesn't answer.
Image

During Cell Games, it must have been either Goku wanting Gohan to figure it out on his own, or him wanting for Gohan to stop training so Cell would have fair chances to win - judging by Goku's power comparison with Korin where he is just slightly weaker than Cell and he knows Gohan is a bit better than him, he several times inquires that Gohan doesn't continue training.
What I mean by manipulating is that Goku becomes uncharacteristically nice and attentive towards Gohan with the fishing and picnic thing as if he was working him so that he plays up to his plan at Cell Games, and the way he sends him off, he says "Bring back peace to the world." and then throws the senzu bean right after proving that he just wants to see a cool, fair fight instead. Goku later forgets that Gohan exists when he's a scholar and is of no use to him, so I definitely see dishonest intentions in Goku, it does feel often that Goku tells others things that he knows will convince them without actually meaning it.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GT_Goten10 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:29 pm

SSBE is the worst Super Saiyan Design ever
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:04 pm

With androids Piccolo forced it out, and Goku started acting goofily when the crew started asking him about the dialogue with Future Trunks with his first answer being "nothing much", just like he acted goofily throughout the days before Cell Games not saying anything.
Still not seeing manipulation there. He just heard some fairly shocking news. Is it that much to ask for time to process how to tell everyone. He was told that there are beings from the future who will kill everyone. The one telling them is the son of his best friend and of all people, Vegeta!
We're analyzing in-universe so Goku deliberately lied to Vegeta
Okay then, but fuck Vegeta. He killed innocent people for a pissing contest. Goku owes him nothing. As for the others, I refuse to talk in universe because there is nothing in universe that justifies his actions. It's not in character for him to lie to them about that especially when he literally told Piccolo that even if he could defeat Buu, he probably shouldn't. What does he gain?

One of my big problems with your analysis is it's reductive. He's capable of having multiple motivations for his actions. What possible reason does Goku have to lie and manipulate his friends to get what he wants? Does he need their consent to get it?

"What about those two?" I was referring to those two. Goku tells them to go because he doesn't want to get them hurt. What don't you get about them coming back of their own accord? He didn't manipulate them and at the point in the battle you're talking about, he's not in a position where he can ask them to leave. His body is literally broken. How is Goku manipulating them?!

Manipulating people is getting people to do something they wouldn't otherwise do through underhanded tactics.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:38 pm

Ssjcell wrote:Yeah when you think about it they don't start out at full power they can reach greater heights the more they power up the next level they can power up more
So you think multipliers can't work cause some characters can hold back their power as Super Saiyans? :eh:
PFM18 wrote:The scaling in the DBS anime isn't bad and is comparable in quality to that of the DBZ anime.
Not at all. Z anime had problems in the power scaling mainly in filler, since DBS is not a adaptation from a original source, it does not have filler.
So everything should be into account on that matter.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ssjcell » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:50 pm

Noah wrote:
Ssjcell wrote:Yeah when you think about it they don't start out at full power they can reach greater heights the more they power up the next level they can power up more
So you think multipliers can't work cause some characters can hold back their power as Super Saiyans? :eh:
PFM18 wrote:The scaling in the DBS anime isn't bad and is comparable in quality to that of the DBZ anime.
Not at all. Z anime had problems in the power scaling mainly in filler, since DBS is not a adaptation from a original source, it does not have filler.
So everything should be into account on that matter.
Yeah basically like when Goku went super Saiyan against yakon when he was measured at 3000 killis he probably wasn't at full power he just used it for light and he further powered up after that . I think he could have beat yakon without ssj. There are various reasons he could have done what he did. To show off to Vegeta or Gohan ect. There's no way yakon is over 10-15 times more powerful than base Goku. I also think base Saiyans are much more powerful than frieza in the Buu saga but that's another discussion.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:05 pm

Noah wrote:Not at all. Z anime had problems in the power scaling mainly in filler, since DBS is not a adaptation from a original source, it does not have filler.
So everything should be into account on that matter.
Yes, obviously.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:54 am

Fight it Out is a good song.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:16 pm

CTAkuma wrote:1:I'd be fine if we never see Caulifla, Kale, Jiren etc. again
2:Goku and Vegeta getting the most attention is a good thing
3:Humans should retire from fighting entirely
I mostly agree. Anything other than Goku/Vegeta being the focus would be ridiculous at this point in the series.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GT_Goten10 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:31 am

Planet M2 is One of the best Seetings in the DB franchise
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ClutchBangstrip » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:33 pm

Internet fans over-complicate Dragon Ball, horrendously.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:42 am

GT_Goten10 wrote:Planet M2 is One of the best Seetings in the DB franchise
Image
Yeah it was gorgeous. Those episodes were best part of Black Star saga.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Grimlock » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:09 am

GT_Goten10 wrote:Planet M2 is One of the best Seetings in the DB franchise
If only there were some, you know, Cybertronians in there. There would be more interesting. :)
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