Unpopular DB opinions

[Michsi]

I guess I'll have to check later, I'm not around any of my manga. Either way, your original argument was that Goku giving Cell a senzu messed Gohan up. So, what you're saying is, had Goku NOT given Cell a senzu, Gohan would've magically been able to transform to SSJ2?

Also, if Goku abandoning him is why he couldn't transform, then...he subconsciously and unbeknownst to the audience got over his assumed daddy issues somewhere between 16's speech and 16's death?

Maybe? We'll never know. I'm pretty sure he wasn't too happy about being put there in the first place and we saw that he was struggling with getting over his hero worship when he had to accept the fact that he was stronger than his father now. So "daddy issues" might just be part of the general equation.

He was already close to his breaking point while the Cell Jr. were torturing everyone. Cell says as much, which is why he then tells his brood to start killing. He knew someone dying would send Gohan over the edge, 16's just happened to be the unlucky one.

Gohan's not being happy about the situation is irrelevant. Senzu or no, Gohan was the only hope. You seem to be assuming he's not happy BECAUSE of the senzu which he never once alludes to. And even AFTER the senzu, he still informs Cell of his confidence to kill him after tapping into his rage.

But if you honestly are implying that Goku giving Cell a senzu (something Piccolo doesn't mention in his speech, and Piccolo was upset about this before the senzu) is the key plot point that stopped Gohan from going SSJ2, then I'm not sure there's any point discussing this further.

No, he doesn't. But he doesn't need to, because someone who knows him very well does. And yes Piccolo does mention it in his speech quite plainly by saying (and I can't belive I have to write this again, ) "he wonders if his life means less to you than a fair fight."

I suppose you could look at that statement as also referring to Goku not intervening to help him since that also ties in to what Goku would consider a "fair fight". Then Piccolo talking about Gohan feeling abandoned would make more sense. Either way, it's still something Goku does that hinders Gohan from reaching the needed level of rage. The senzu thing is just part of the problem.

[Forte224]

But then again, you're ignoring the fact that Gohan was very confident in his reply to Cell about his rage. If we have to take Piccolo (someone who isn't Gohan) at face value, then we have to take Gohan at face value too.

Also, in his speech, Piccolo did mention Gohan not knowing the plan, which he was wrong about, Gohan did know. This means what he's saying otherwise isn't necessarily true either. It was an emotional, dramatic situation. In the end, there's no indication from Gohan himself (and actually there's indication otherwise due to his confidence about his rage and being able to kill Cell with it) that the senzu was hampering his boost. Like all his other rage boosts, he needed something to send him over the edge.

[Michsi]

But then again, you're ignoring the fact that Gohan was very confident in his reply to Cell about his rage. If we have to take Piccolo (someone who isn't Gohan) at face value, then we have to take Gohan at face value too.

Also, in his speech, Piccolo did mention Gohan not knowing the plan, which he was wrong about, Gohan did know. This means what he's saying otherwise isn't necessarily true either. It was an emotional, dramatic situation. In the end, there's no indication from Gohan himself (and actually there's indication otherwise due to his confidence about his rage and being able to kill Cell with it) that the senzu was hampering his boost. Like all his other rage boosts, he needed something to send him over the edge.

I'm not. I've always bring it up boldly when countering the "sudden pacifist" argument. Gohan was never a pacifist.

I'm certain Gohan believed in his father's plan because he believed in his father. He knows he has the power and he knows rage is the key to bringing it out. Yet he isn't getting angry. He was getting the life crushed out of him and his rage still wasn't kicking in. So something is wrong.

As for Piccolo, the line goes "does he even know what you are planning?" Yes, Gohan does, but that's because he figures it out himself. Because of the way it's worded, to me that was more along the lines of pointing out the ridiculousness of how Goku went about the whole thing. Something like "shouldn't you have talked this over with him?" But the rest of the speech, about how Gohan isn't like his father, about how he doesn't love fighting- that is spot on. Gohan tells Cell he doesn't find fighting fun, Piccolo tells Goku Gohan doesn't love fighting.

[Forte224]

But then again, you're ignoring the fact that Gohan was very confident in his reply to Cell about his rage. If we have to take Piccolo (someone who isn't Gohan) at face value, then we have to take Gohan at face value too.

Also, in his speech, Piccolo did mention Gohan not knowing the plan, which he was wrong about, Gohan did know. This means what he's saying otherwise isn't necessarily true either. It was an emotional, dramatic situation. In the end, there's no indication from Gohan himself (and actually there's indication otherwise due to his confidence about his rage and being able to kill Cell with it) that the senzu was hampering his boost. Like all his other rage boosts, he needed something to send him over the edge.

I'm not. I've always bring it up boldly when countering the "sudden pacifist" argument. Gohan was never a pacifist.

I'm certain Gohan believed in his father's plan because he believed in his father. He knows he has the power and he knows rage is the key to bringing it out. Yet he isn't getting angry. He was getting the life crushed out of him and his rage still wasn't kicking in. So something is wrong.

As for Piccolo, the line goes "does he even know what you are planning?" Yes, Gohan does, but that's because he figures it out himself. Because of the way it's worded, to me that was more along the lines of pointing out the ridiculousness of how Goku went about the whole thing. Something like "shouldn't you have talked this over with him?" But the rest of the speech, about how Gohan isn't like his father, about how he doesn't love fighting- that is spot on. Gohan tells Cell he doesn't find fighting fun, Piccolo tells Goku Gohan doesn't love fighting.

Ok? So, what's wrong is Gohan doesn't love fighting. This has nothing to do with a senzu bean. Gohan has always needed a trigger for his rage. With Raditz it was Goku almost being killed, with Nappa it was Piccolo being killed, with Freeza it was the assumption that Kuririn was killed. Finally, with Cell, it was 16 being killed+his speech about letting go. No one ever said "Go get mad" and then he did it. If anything, Goku's mistake was not fighting to his death in the first place so Gohan had something to actually be angry about.

How does anything that leads up to Gohan going SSJ2 "fix" this assumed issue he had with Goku handing over a senzu to Cell?

[Michsi]

Ok? So, what's wrong is Gohan doesn't love fighting. This has nothing to do with a senzu bean. Gohan has always needed a trigger for his rage. With Raditz it was Goku almost being killed, with Nappa it was Piccolo being killed, with Freeza it was the assumption that Kuririn was killed. Finally, with Cell, it was 16 being killed+his speech about letting go. No one ever said "Go get mad" and then he did it. If anything, Goku's mistake was not fighting to his death in the first place so Gohan had something to actually be angry about.

How does anything that leads up to Gohan going SSJ2 "fix" this assumed issue he had with Goku handing over a senzu to Cell?

As I said, the senzu was just part of the problem and certainly not the core of my argument. It's that Goku's actions affected Gohan's performance. That Goku misunderstood that he and Gohan were different. That he mistakenly thought Gohan would appreciate Goku leveling the playing field for him because he cares about fighting the way he does.

Also, Gohan's rage is also supposed to be a self-defense mechanism, as we've seen when Piccol threw him at a cliff. Meaning that his life being in danger should've also done the trick. He was watching Cell pummel Gohan believing that that was enough to get him angry. And it should've. We know he reached something like SSJ2 in the RoSAT based on what Goku told everyone before he sent him down to fight, so seeing someone get hurt shouldn't have been his only trigger.

If it were, it would make Goku look pretty dumb as he overlooked the fact that someone had to either get the crap beaten out of them or even kick the bucket in order for Gohan to unleash his power. Given that he asks everyone for forgiveness while the Cell Jrs were torturing everyone, I assume he never intended for anyone aside Cell to get hurt.

[Forte224]

Hmm, well, fair enough. I respect your points, even if I'm not in full agreement with them. I don't think there's much left to be said at this point, though. And frankly I'm a little sick of typing on my phone at the moment.

[Michsi]

Understood. Good debate

[Forte224]

We can at least agree that it's Vegeta that got us all into this mess in the first place! *new debate ensues*

[Michsi]

We can at least agree that it's Vegeta that got us all into this mess in the first place! *new debate ensues*

You'll get no argument from me there.

[ABED]

All of this is beside the point. Gohan was the only one would defeat Cell. Goku wasn't the one who pushed him into the fight and he's not a bad father for that. He's made plenty of questionable decisions, but choosing Gohan to fight Cell wasn't because it wasn't a choice. Gohan is the only one with the power to finish Cell off. I didn't think my original reply was controversial or would constantly be misunderstood. The senzu has nothing to do with it. Gohan's desire to fight has nothing to do with it.

FortuneSSJ said Goku making Gohan fight Cell is one example of an action that makes Goku a bad father. I replied that I think Goku is not a good father, but Goku didn't force Gohan to fight Cell. Gohan was the one person with enough power to stop Cell.

[Michsi]

Now you are making things up

I'm sick of writing the entirety of Piccolo's speech. Ignore it if you will, say he didn't know what he was talking about. But it's there, in the text.

Also Gohan straight up says he doesn't love fighting, he tells it right to Cell's face, and he is visibly unhappy about being there and about the notion of having to kill him. Goku is up there grinning the entire time. Take that as you will.

Goku's conversation before Gohan fighting Cell proves otherwise. He knows his son wants to be a scholar. Clearly he knows Gohan. You're cherry picking quotes.

I'm not, and you know I'm not, as the two of us have been over this before, including the line you mention. If he does know him they way you suggest he does and he still makes Gohan go out there the way does, than that makes everything so much worse.

[ABED]

Now you are making things up

I'm sick of writing the entirety of Piccolo's speech. Ignore it if you will, say he didn't know what he was talking about. But it's there, in the text.

Also Gohan straight up says he doesn't love fighting, he tells it right to Cell's face, and he is visibly unhappy about being there and about the notion of having to kill him. Goku is up there grinning the entire time. Take that as you will.

Goku's conversation before Gohan fighting Cell proves otherwise. He knows his son wants to be a scholar. Clearly he knows Gohan. You're cherry picking quotes.

I'm not, and you know I'm not, as the two of us have been over this before, including the line you mention. If he does know him they way you suggest he does and he still makes Gohan go out there the way does, than that makes everything so much worse.

Goku didn't make Gohan go out there. Gohan is the only one who has the power. It's irrelevant if he wants to fight. He has to! Why do you insist on ignoring Goku's dialog with Gohan before the fight?

You might not be making it up out of thin air, but rather, you're misinterpreting the quote.
"Do you know what is going on in his head right now? It's not anger. He is wondering why his own father has abandoned him. He asking himself if his father cares more about a fair fight than his own life."
As we find out, it had nothing to do with feeling abandoned (out of character for Gohan and nothing from Gohan indicates that to be so), it has to do with 16's point about Gohan finally realizing it's okay to fight to protect the things you love.

Again, none of this matters in regards to the original point that was made.

[The Patrolman]

We can at least agree that it's Vegeta that got us all into this mess in the first place! *new debate ensues*

Oh absolutely. Also we should Krillin for this too

[Michsi]

Now you are making things up

I'm sick of writing the entirety of Piccolo's speech. Ignore it if you will, say he didn't know what he was talking about. But it's there, in the text.

Also Gohan straight up says he doesn't love fighting, he tells it right to Cell's face, and he is visibly unhappy about being there and about the notion of having to kill him. Goku is up there grinning the entire time. Take that as you will.

Goku's conversation before Gohan fighting Cell proves otherwise. He knows his son wants to be a scholar. Clearly he knows Gohan. You're cherry picking quotes.

I'm not, and you know I'm not, as the two of us have been over this before, including the line you mention. If he does know him they way you suggest he does and he still makes Gohan go out there the way does, than that makes everything so much worse.

Goku didn't make Gohan go out there. Gohan is the only one who has the power. It's irrelevant if he wants to fight. He has to!

Yes he does. He didn't need to send Gohan out there on his own. He realizes this himself later.

That says nothing about being too distraught to transform.

That is literally what that line means.

Also, i never said Gohan resents Goku, I'm pretty sure he is not capable of that. I think it's more along the lines of confusion, sadness, heartbreak. Either way, something does keep him from getting angry, and we get no other reason.

[ABED]

Either way, something does keep him from getting angry, and we get no other reason.

We DO get the reason - 16's speech about Gohan needing to fight to protect the things he loved because some people can't be reasoned with.

Yes he does. He didn't need to send Gohan out there on his own. He realizes this himself later.

Gohan is the ONLY one who can win. Even if Goku fought along side his son, he'd be outclassed. If I recall, Cell was holding back against Goku for the sake of a better fight.

[Michsi]

Either way, something does keep him from getting angry, and we get no other reason.

We DO get the reason - 16's speech about Gohan needing to fight to protect the things he loved because some people can't be reasoned with.

What in the world does 16 speech tell us about why Gohan couldn't use his powers??? He tells him he needs to let go of his rage so he can protect what he loves- something Gohan already knows. Toriyama didn't put 16 there to help open Gohan's eyes, he was put there to die.

]Wrong on all counts. Gohan is the ONLY one who can win.

And yet he doesn't, not on his own. Someone needed to die in order for him to obtain the power. Then he either deliberately misses his chance for the sake of letting Cell suffer longer, or he gives up when he thinks he has no chance. The one that was wrong on most accounts was Goku.

[ABED]

This discussion isn't going anywhere constructive anymore. You believe what you do, I believe what I do. Let us amiably part ways on this issue.

[Michsi]

Agreed.

[Forte224]

By the way ABED, sorry I cut into this conversation you were having originally. I didn't mean to take it over.

[ABED]

By the way ABED, sorry I cut into this conversation you were having originally. I didn't mean to take it over.

No problem at all. I prefer it to having page after page of just me and someone else.