Unpopular DB opinions

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The the biggest problem I have with it is the fact Goku didn't even tell Gohan he was gonna fight. Just threw him him in and also then eliminated the only advantage Gohan had, a weakened Cell. Not only was Gohan still a kid but it wasn't like some friendly tournament everyone's existence was on the line. Goku saw that Gohan had potential but didn't bother drawing it in, instead would rather sleep by a river bank and hope the villain Cell could draw it out. That's what makes Goku a bad father in my opinion, he never once thought about his son other than he has the potential to beat Cell.

[Michsi]

I suppose so, but what would you have suggested in that situation? For Goku to completely go against his character and let Gohan beat up on a weakened fighter? For Gohan to just not fight despite being the strongest? For all of them to gang up on Cell, therefore breaking the rules and him probably just obliterating the planet?

I'm not saying Goku is a perfect person, he's very flawed and non-heroic and that's what makes him interesting. But there really is no other way around things outside of weakening Goku's character or writing the scenario completely different.

Not be so happy-go-lucky about that whole deal, for one thing. That he believed Gohan was the only one that could fight Cell was one thing, he didn't have to be so presumptuous with his tactic.
And yes, he could've let Gohan fight a weakened Cell, if him sending his son out there was truly because no one else could defeat him. He is more than willing to throw away the fair fight shtick later, once he realizes his mistake. The only reason the others didn't want to intervene before was because Goku was fighting, and as most of them probably remember from his fight against Piccolo during the tournament, Goku doesn't appreciate unsolicited help.


And yes, Goku is not a perfect person/ character. And I love that about him. I mean, I do wish he'd be more sensible on occasion, but his battle-hunger being a legitimate flaw is a nice touch IMO. But that doesn't mean you can't criticize him for those flaws.

[ABED]

It doesn't matter who believed in whom. Gohan was the only one who could defeat Cell. The issue before the court isn't whether Goku was nice, it is whether Goku pushed it all on Gohan. Besides, didn't Goku also tell Gohan that if he wants to be a scholar he has to first defeat Cell? It wouldn't matter anyway because that's not the issue. Gohan had to fight Cell because he's the only one who could.

The the biggest problem I have with it is the fact Goku didn't even tell Gohan he was gonna fight. Just threw him him in and also then eliminated the only advantage Gohan had, a weakened Cell. Not only was Gohan still a kid but it wasn't like some friendly tournament everyone's existence was on the line. Goku saw that Gohan had potential but didn't bother drawing it in, instead would rather sleep by a river bank and hope the villain Cell could draw it out. That's what makes Goku a bad father in my opinion, he never once thought about his son other than he has the potential to beat Cell.

That's part of my problem with that whole fight. Toriyama had Goku keep it from Gohan even though there's no logical reason for him to do so. The only reason I can figure is he was trying to keep it a surprise for the audience and couldn't think of a way to misdirect the audience.

The only in-universe response is it wouldn't matter that Cell was weakened. The only way for Gohan to win is for his power to be drawn out and to do so, he needed to strong emotion, one which Goku figured he couldn't pull from his son on his own.

if him sending his son out there was truly because no one else could defeat him

There's no 'if', it is in fact the case. It's shown over and over that Gohan is the ONLY person who has a chance of winning. If anyone else tried to help, it would've resulted in death.

[Michsi]

if him sending his son out there was truly because no one else could defeat him

There's no 'if', it is in fact the case. It's shown over and over that Gohan is the ONLY person who has a chance of winning. If anyone else tried to help, it would've resulted in death.

As in '*if* that was what he truly cared about and his main reasoning. Him giving Cell a senzu shows that it wasn't.

[ABED]

if him sending his son out there was truly because no one else could defeat him

There's no 'if', it is in fact the case. It's shown over and over that Gohan is the ONLY person who has a chance of winning. If anyone else tried to help, it would've resulted in death.

As in '*if* that was what he truly cared about and his main reasoning. Him giving Cell a senzu shows that it wasn't.

What does it show?

I think people are missing the point. They are making so many tangential points that they are forgetting how this all started. It started with me responding to another member saying one of the reasons Goku is a bad father is because he had Gohan fight Cell. The senzu is a different (albeit related) issue. Goku isn't at fault for Gohan fighting Cell. It ultimately all would've come down to Cell vs. Gohan because he's the only one who could. That's not subtext, it's flat out text.

[Michsi]

There's no 'if', it is in fact the case. It's shown over and over that Gohan is the ONLY person who has a chance of winning. If anyone else tried to help, it would've resulted in death.

As in '*if* that was what he truly cared about and his main reasoning. Him giving Cell a senzu shows that it wasn't.

What does it show?

Oh boy, here we go-

That he is not doing it out of a sense of necessity, so the "but Gohan really was the only one that could defeat him" doesn't work.

People aren't arguing about Gohan ending up in a fight against Cell, they are arguing about how Goku behaved during those moments.

[ABED]

As in '*if* that was what he truly cared about and his main reasoning. Him giving Cell a senzu shows that it wasn't.

What does it show?

Oh boy, here we go-

That he is not doing it out of a sense of necessity, so the "but Gohan really was the only one that could defeat him" doesn't work.

It does work because it's true. Gohan is the only one who could. Do you think someone else could defeat Cell? Goku might want to make it more sportsman like, but that doesn't mean Gohan wasn't the only one who could win.

[Michsi]

What does it show?

Oh boy, here we go-

That he is not doing it out of a sense of necessity, so the "but Gohan really was the only one that could defeat him" doesn't work.

It does work because it's true. Gohan is the only one who could. Do you think someone else could defeat Cell? Goku might want to make it more sportsman like, but that doesn't mean Gohan wasn't the only one who could win.

Again, that means nothing when you look at Goku's behavior and attitude. The whole making it more "sportsman like" is what came back and bit him in the butt.

[ABED]

It means everything because that's the question before the court. The issue is whether Goku made Gohan fight Cell and if that made him a bad father.

The whole making it more "sportsman like" is what came back and bit him in the butt.

I fear this tangential question will keep you from answering the important one, but how is that what came back in bit him?

[Michsi]

It means everything because that's the question before the court. The issue is whether Goku made Gohan fight Cell and if that made him a bad father.

It doesn't make him a good one. If a man doesn't 't know his son well enough to realize that having him chose fairness over his son's safety would mess up said son so much that it would even hinder the very reason the father sent the son down to fight in the first place- well....

I fear this tangential question will keep you from answering the important one, but how is that what came back in bit him?

As mentioned above. Gohan was too upset to bring out that power Goku was banking on because he chose the sportsman's route.

[Forte224]

I don't recall Goku giving Cell a senzu messing up Gohan. Unless that's just what you were assuming.

[Michsi]

I don't recall Goku giving Cell a senzu messing up Gohan. Unless that's just what you were assuming.

Piccolo says it outright. Quote (non-VIZ ): "Do you know what is going on in his head right now? It's not anger. He is wondering why his own father has abandoned him. He asking himself if his father cares more about a fair fight than his own life."

Now I've seen people claim that just because Piccolo says it, doesn't mean it's true (DB has always used comments from the sidelines to convey and explain stuff that was going on in the fight, so why would this be any different??? ) but the fact remains that something really was holding back Gohan from getting as angry as he needed to be.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It means everything because that's the question before the court. The issue is whether Goku made Gohan fight Cell and if that made him a bad father.

The whole making it more "sportsman like" is what came back and bit him in the butt.

I fear this tangential question will keep you from answering the important one, but how is that what came back in bit him?

My issue is that he didnt ask him. You guys insist he did.

[Forte224]

I don't recall Goku giving Cell a senzu messing up Gohan. Unless that's just what you were assuming.

Piccolo says it outright. Quote (non-VIZ ): "Do you know what is going on in his head right now? It's not anger. He is wondering why his own father has abandoned him. He asking himself if his father cares more about a fair fight than his own life."

Now I've seen people claim that just because Piccolo says it, doesn't mean it's true (DB has always used comments from the sidelines to convey and explain stuff that was going on in the fight, so why would this be any different??? ) but the fact remains that something really was holding back Gohan from getting as angry as he needed to be.

So, you're assuming. Gohan does know the plan. He told Cell. Piccolo and eventually Goku just assume he doesn't.

[Michsi]

I don't recall Goku giving Cell a senzu messing up Gohan. Unless that's just what you were assuming.

Piccolo says it outright. Quote (non-VIZ ): "Do you know what is going on in his head right now? It's not anger. He is wondering why his own father has abandoned him. He asking himself if his father cares more about a fair fight than his own life."

Now I've seen people claim that just because Piccolo says it, doesn't mean it's true (DB has always used comments from the sidelines to convey and explain stuff that was going on in the fight, so why would this be any different??? ) but the fact remains that something really was holding back Gohan from getting as angry as he needed to be.

So, you're assuming. Gohan does know the plan. He told Cell. Piccolo and eventually Goku just assume he doesn't.

Assuming what? Toriyama gives us the reason why Goku's plan wasn't working. Yes, Gohan knows his father's plans , he knows he has the power to defeat Cell and that he needs rage to tap into it. Yet he is not getting angry as he should. Why? The story then tells us why, through Piccolo (aka second hand exposition)

[Forte224]

That's not Piccolo telling him why he isn't tapping into his rage. You're reaching with that explanation. Piccolo uses that explanation because he thinks Gohan doesn't know the plan. If anything, we find out through 16 that he isn't tapping into his rage because he's afraid to, not because his father abandoned him.

[Michsi]

That's not Piccolo telling him why he isn't tapping into his rage. You're reaching with that explanation. Piccolo uses that explanation because he thinks Gohan doesn't know the plan. If anything, we find out through 16 that he isn't tapping into his rage because he's afraid to, not because his father abandoned him.

??? Where are you getting this from? Not reaching, just taking what the story shows me at face value. I'm looking at my volume right now. Piccolo does mention something about whether or not Gohan even knew his intention, but his tirade doesn't stop there. And about 16, all he says to Gohan is that his fight is just and that he should just let loose. To protect the world and nature. Nothing about him being afraid.

[Forte224]

I guess I'll have to check later, I'm not around any of my manga. Either way, your original argument was that Goku giving Cell a senzu messed Gohan up. So, what you're saying is, had Goku NOT given Cell a senzu, Gohan would've magically been able to transform to SSJ2?

Also, if Goku abandoning him is why he couldn't transform, then...he subconsciously and unbeknownst to the audience got over his assumed daddy issues somewhere between 16's speech and 16's death?

[Michsi]

I guess I'll have to check later, I'm not around any of my manga. Either way, your original argument was that Goku giving Cell a senzu messed Gohan up. So, what you're saying is, had Goku NOT given Cell a senzu, Gohan would've magically been able to transform to SSJ2?

Also, if Goku abandoning him is why he couldn't transform, then...he subconsciously and unbeknownst to the audience got over his assumed daddy issues somewhere between 16's speech and 16's death?

Maybe? We'll never know. I'm pretty sure he wasn't too happy about being put there in the first place and we saw that he was struggling with getting over his hero worship when he had to accept the fact that he was stronger than his father now. So "daddy issues" might just be part of the general equation.

He was already close to his breaking point while the Cell Jr. were torturing everyone. Cell says as much, which is why he then tells his brood to start killing. He knew someone dying would send Gohan over the edge, 16's just happened to be the unlucky one.

[Forte224]

I guess I'll have to check later, I'm not around any of my manga. Either way, your original argument was that Goku giving Cell a senzu messed Gohan up. So, what you're saying is, had Goku NOT given Cell a senzu, Gohan would've magically been able to transform to SSJ2?

Also, if Goku abandoning him is why he couldn't transform, then...he subconsciously and unbeknownst to the audience got over his assumed daddy issues somewhere between 16's speech and 16's death?

Maybe? We'll never know. I'm pretty sure he wasn't too happy about being put there in the first place and we saw that he was struggling with getting over his hero worship when he had to accept the fact that he was stronger than his father now. So "daddy issues" might just be part of the general equation.

He was already close to his breaking point while the Cell Jr. were torturing everyone. Cell says as much, which is why he then tells his brood to start killing. He knew someone dying would send Gohan over the edge, 16's just happened to be the unlucky one.

Gohan's not being happy about the situation is irrelevant. Senzu or no, Gohan was the only hope. You seem to be assuming he's not happy BECAUSE of the senzu which he never once alludes to. And even AFTER the senzu, he still informs Cell of his confidence to kill him after tapping into his rage.

But if you honestly are implying that Goku giving Cell a senzu (something Piccolo doesn't mention in his speech, and Piccolo was upset about this before the senzu) is the key plot point that stopped Gohan from going SSJ2, then I'm not sure there's any point discussing this further.