Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:42 pm

WittyUsername wrote:I get the feeling you're going to end up ranking the Freeza Arc as your least favorite one in the series on DBD.
I guess you'll just have to tune in Monday and find out. :wink:
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:46 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:I get the feeling you're going to end up ranking the Freeza Arc as your least favorite one in the series on DBD.
I guess you'll just have to tune in Monday and find out. :wink:
I'm looking forward to it. :thumbup:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:40 pm

I really missed Gaffer Tape, I thought he stopped posting because I identified him by his avatar lol.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:32 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:I'm pretty sure this one is an unpopular opinion: the end of the Freeza Arc absolutely falls apart. Completely. In every conceivable way. And bear in mind I'm referring to the manga as the anime changes a few of these. Goku demonstrates the ability to stabilize Freeza after he's been cut in half, and all it takes is firing a ki blast at him. It's a skill with no explanation, which is never seen again, but which should completely change how the Dragon World works. Kuririn is saved by having his soul transported to Earth, which makes exactly zero sense based on how death has been shown to work prior to this point. The conclusion of the arc is rushed through and handled entirely through narration boxes. The payoff to the whole reason they went to Namek in the first place is never seen. And that's probably because a third of the final chapter is used to set up that Freeza is still alive. Usually I like when the end of an arc sets up the next arc, but after such a long time with Freeza, we're allowed to believe he's dead for only two weeks before he oh-so-shockingly comes back again.

Upon reflection, the ending to the Freeza Arc is the worst ending in the series.
I get the feeling you're going to end up ranking the Freeza Arc as your least favorite one in the series on DBD.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:28 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:I'm pretty sure this one is an unpopular opinion: the end of the Freeza Arc absolutely falls apart. Completely. In every conceivable way. And bear in mind I'm referring to the manga as the anime changes a few of these. Goku demonstrates the ability to stabilize Freeza after he's been cut in half, and all it takes is firing a ki blast at him. It's a skill with no explanation, which is never seen again, but which should completely change how the Dragon World works. Kuririn is saved by having his soul transported to Earth, which makes exactly zero sense based on how death has been shown to work prior to this point. The conclusion of the arc is rushed through and handled entirely through narration boxes. The payoff to the whole reason they went to Namek in the first place is never seen. And that's probably because a third of the final chapter is used to set up that Freeza is still alive. Usually I like when the end of an arc sets up the next arc, but after such a long time with Freeza, we're allowed to believe he's dead for only two weeks before he oh-so-shockingly comes back again.

Upon reflection, the ending to the Freeza Arc is the worst ending in the series.
I get the feeling you're going to end up ranking the Freeza Arc as your least favorite one in the series on DBD.
Is he mistare fusion.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:28 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:I'm pretty sure this one is an unpopular opinion: the end of the Freeza Arc absolutely falls apart. Completely. In every conceivable way. And bear in mind I'm referring to the manga as the anime changes a few of these. Goku demonstrates the ability to stabilize Freeza after he's been cut in half, and all it takes is firing a ki blast at him. It's a skill with no explanation, which is never seen again, but which should completely change how the Dragon World works. Kuririn is saved by having his soul transported to Earth, which makes exactly zero sense based on how death has been shown to work prior to this point. The conclusion of the arc is rushed through and handled entirely through narration boxes. The payoff to the whole reason they went to Namek in the first place is never seen. And that's probably because a third of the final chapter is used to set up that Freeza is still alive. Usually I like when the end of an arc sets up the next arc, but after such a long time with Freeza, we're allowed to believe he's dead for only two weeks before he oh-so-shockingly comes back again.

Upon reflection, the ending to the Freeza Arc is the worst ending in the series.
I get the feeling you're going to end up ranking the Freeza Arc as your least favorite one in the series on DBD.
Is he mistare fusion.
Yes, yes he is.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:48 am

8000 Saiyan wrote:
Ripper 30 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
I get the feeling you're going to end up ranking the Freeza Arc as your least favorite one in the series on DBD.
Is he mistare fusion.
Yes, yes he is.
Now I it makes sense because I never found him on Kanzenshuu by his YouTube name.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:01 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ABED wrote:I don't think the ending is rushed. Wishing their friends back isn't the climax. It was the impetus for their journey but it's not the climax - defeating Freeza is. That's just the wrap up. I can't imagine spending any more time with it than we actually do. Once Freeza is defeated, it's fait accompli that they will wish their friends back. Peace is restored, there's no more conflict. I can't recall how it's done in the manga, but it works well in the anime.
I never claimed it was the climax. But it deserves something, and the manga gives it nothing. Look at the Piccolo Arc. It doesn't dwell too heavily on the resurrections, but it at least addresses it. It's a nice montage, it captures the emotions, and it even gives moments to minor characters like Namu and Giran. In the Freeza Arc, we get absolutely nothing but a re-used cityscape image with the back of Porunga while a narration caption devotes a couple of sentences to it. That is not in any way satisfying. The anime does address the emotion by actually showing the dead people coming back to life, but that creates a new inconsistency since they shouldn't have been able to just instantly re-appear on earth. The anime does fix the pacing problems because it actually does give the story a conclusion. We see peace restored. And as much as I hate the Garlic Jr. arc, it does provide a reasonable amount of time between Freeza's defeat and Freeza's return. In the manga, it is literally all in the same chapter. The resurrections (that we don't see), the relocation of the Namekians (that we don't see), the peace (that we don't see), and the return of Freeza. That's all in the same chapter.
I don't see why it being all in the same chapter is inherently bad. The emotional climax of the Namek arc was Kuririn's death. We get another moment of raw emotion when Goku finally gives into killing Freeza. At that point, we know the Balls are all on Earth, the Namekians are all on Earth, and that Goku succeeded in defeating Freeza. We don't need to see the ressurections, the relocation, or the peace.

As for the Piccolo Daimao arc, I feel that the focus on resurrections there is sloppily handled. Just because we see it doesn't mean it's necessarily well done. It all comes and goes so fast. I prefer Toriyama's take with the Namek arc where he closed the meat of the arc with the scene of Goku left alone on a dying Namek. It's powerful imagery that really captures Freeza's onslaught and the lengths our characters have had to go, along with giving us a visual association with Goku's newfound rage through the Super Saiyan transformation. I feel like slowing down too much after that would kill that emotional high from the Freeza fight. Every piece feels very deliberate and serves a purpose up to that point. The aftermath would feel out of place with the rest of the arc. While I understand why someone would want it, I don't think it would mesh with everything else.

That said, that's definitely an unpopular opinion and I'm glad you expressed it because it's also a very interesting one!

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:32 pm

1 - Kuririn's death is emotional, but not a climax.
2 - Why is Goku alone on a dying Namek a great way to end? Is that not tonally inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work?
3 - Slowing down is EXACTLY what you need to do after a climactic duel. Freeza's dead, it's time to let things settle before thing pick up again in another story.
4 - Why would ending with a nice peaceful denouement not deliberate and not mesh with the rest of the arc?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:52 pm

ABED wrote:1 - Kuririn's death is emotional, but not a climax.
2 - Why is Goku alone on a dying Namek a great way to end? Is that not tonally inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work?
3 - Slowing down is EXACTLY what you need to do after a climactic duel. Freeza's dead, it's time to let things settle before thing pick up again in another story.
4 - Why would ending with a nice peaceful denouement not deliberate and not mesh with the rest of the arc?
1. It's the prelude to the climax of nothing else.

2. Because it's a powerful image that says all it needs to say about Freeza's destruction without saying a single word. I don't think it's finally inconsistent at all. It's not like the series had suddenly become super serious. It fits the tone of the post-Piccolo Daimao Dragon Ball pretty well.

3. I disagree. It's a case for case situation, it's not universal. I think this arc is better off for keeping the pieces moving, it fits its hectic nature better. Besides, the last few chapters of the Namek arc set everything in motion at a comfortable pace, we don't need more chapters detailing ressurections, relocations, and relaxation. THAT would be inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work.

4. See above. We don't need a dragged out epilogue. A to the point conclusion is more fitting for Dragon Ball and let's us end on a high note. The pages we get saying what happened after Namek's explosion do the job just fine.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:01 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
ABED wrote:1 - Kuririn's death is emotional, but not a climax.
2 - Why is Goku alone on a dying Namek a great way to end? Is that not tonally inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work?
3 - Slowing down is EXACTLY what you need to do after a climactic duel. Freeza's dead, it's time to let things settle before thing pick up again in another story.
4 - Why would ending with a nice peaceful denouement not deliberate and not mesh with the rest of the arc?
1. It's the prelude to the climax of nothing else.

2. Because it's a powerful image that says all it needs to say about Freeza's destruction without saying a single word. I don't think it's finally inconsistent at all. It's not like the series had suddenly become super serious. It fits the tone of the post-Piccolo Daimao Dragon Ball pretty well.

3. I disagree. It's a case for case situation, it's not universal. I think this arc is better off for keeping the pieces moving, it fits its hectic nature better. Besides, the last few chapters of the Namek arc set everything in motion at a comfortable pace, we don't need more chapters detailing ressurections, relocations, and relaxation. THAT would be inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work.

4. See above. We don't need a dragged out epilogue. A to the point conclusion is more fitting for Dragon Ball and let's us end on a high note. The pages we get saying what happened after Namek's explosion do the job just fine.
1 - Huh?
2 - Not really since even after Piccolo Daimao, it's still has plenty of humor. It can get serious and dark but it's still not a dark story. Showing peace doesn't make that image any less powerful.
3 - It is moving, just not at a breakneck pace. How is showing the resurrections inconsistent with Toriyama's work?
4 - Dragged out is a matter of perspective. 1 episode is what we got and you're asking for less? How is that NOT to the point? We aren't asking for a Return of the King style drawn out ending, but given that the impetus for the story was bringing back the friends who died, and episode or full chapter to allow those moments to emotionally land.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:12 pm

ABED wrote:
OhHiRenan wrote:
ABED wrote:1 - Kuririn's death is emotional, but not a climax.
2 - Why is Goku alone on a dying Namek a great way to end? Is that not tonally inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work?
3 - Slowing down is EXACTLY what you need to do after a climactic duel. Freeza's dead, it's time to let things settle before thing pick up again in another story.
4 - Why would ending with a nice peaceful denouement not deliberate and not mesh with the rest of the arc?
1. It's the prelude to the climax of nothing else.

2. Because it's a powerful image that says all it needs to say about Freeza's destruction without saying a single word. I don't think it's finally inconsistent at all. It's not like the series had suddenly become super serious. It fits the tone of the post-Piccolo Daimao Dragon Ball pretty well.

3. I disagree. It's a case for case situation, it's not universal. I think this arc is better off for keeping the pieces moving, it fits its hectic nature better. Besides, the last few chapters of the Namek arc set everything in motion at a comfortable pace, we don't need more chapters detailing ressurections, relocations, and relaxation. THAT would be inconsistent with the rest of Toriyama's work.

4. See above. We don't need a dragged out epilogue. A to the point conclusion is more fitting for Dragon Ball and let's us end on a high note. The pages we get saying what happened after Namek's explosion do the job just fine.
1 - Huh?
2 - Not really since even after Piccolo Daimao, it's still has plenty of humor. It can get serious and dark but it's still not a dark story. Showing peace doesn't make that image any less powerful.
3 - It is moving, just not at a breakneck pace. How is showing the resurrections inconsistent with Toriyama's work?
4 - Dragged out is a matter of perspective. 1 episode is what we got and you're asking for less? How is that NOT to the point?
1. It acts as the catalyst for the climax which I guess I would say is Goku's transformation. I can't speak on your behalf, though. That, for me, is the big moment of the Namek arc and I consider Kuririn's death to be the starting point of that particular event.

2. The Ginyu Tokusentai are pretty funny. Humor's still present, just on a smaller scale. It doesn't make it any less powerful, you're right, but I think letting the peace be brief allows that moment to stand out all the more. it has this extra sense of weight.

3. It feels more like in Toriyama's nature to trod along and close out the arc. Him throwing in a few chapters post-Namek's explosion doesn't seem like something he'd do.

4. Admittedly I haven't watched the anime to completion in years. All my recent Dragon ball knowledge comes from rereading the manga constantly and, if I recall correctly, it's just a few pages which is fine by me. So I guess one episode is acceptable for adaptation purposes. Though I'm glad the manga chapter was to the point.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:21 pm

1 - But technically almost everything is a catalyst for the climax. Everything in a story should be leading towards the climax. Kuririn's death and the transformation are certainly important but it's not the climax.
3 - There's trotting things along and blowing past them. If those characters' deaths are big moments, their resurrections deserve more than a text box of exposition. Again, no one is asking for the ending(s) of Return of the King, just give those moments their due. One episode is hardly a lot. Giving those moments their due makes the journey all the more worth it. It shows that it meant something.
4 - It wasn't so much to the point as it was rushed.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:41 pm

I think BoG (movie) is largely overrated by fans and really is not that great if you breakdown.

The cast of this film have been relegated to literal side characters, who then get completely humiliated by Beerus and unlike Goku can't redeem themselves, Piccolo got taken out by freakin' chopsticks! Vegeta spends the most film being goofy and trying to stop Beerus, the issue the more is the fact that more or less all of Vegeta's screen time in the movie is dedicated to this and when he finally gets down with Beerus the fight is over and instant and Vegeta's role then on in is to make the numbers for the ritual for Goku. The fact that a Bingo song is attributed to Vegeta's best moment in the film says it all really, it literally is the closest thing to a "shinning moment" he gets.

Goku, like atypical Z story is missing for the middle chunk of the story to build some "tension" unlike in Z no matter how contrived Goku missing was (cough Android arc cough) at least some of the cast actually got to do things but in BoG that didn't even happen, so it is like why have Goku missing for the middle part then? Then Goku shows up and everyone starts getting a hard on "omg Goku is here yay". Lo and behold Goku gets a mega power up and the real meat of the story begins.

IGN called some parts of BoG "filler" in their review and I understand why would think that as the entire middle of the film is essentially only there to show us how flimsy Beerus' attitude can get. Goku could have transmitted to Earth immediately and then wished the dragon and have everything play out from there and literally nothing would change from the movie. The whole elongated way and having Goku "observe from the sidelines" was pretty much pointless really.

The action in the film is handled awfully. There is never once a momemt until Shida's cut as an audience you can figuratively sink your teeth into, up until Goku reverts the action is so short it's over just before it began, Goku vs Beerus R1 over in a flash, then Beerus vs everyone over in a flash, Beerus vs Vegeta over in a flash, SSG Goku vs Beerus you start getting into it, okay this is aweosme oh whaaa they've stopped to talk in a cave... :roll:

The extended cut just brings up these flaws even more, less run time the film needed not more.

Aside from Beerus, Whis and the world building there really isn't much to BoG, it's thinly plotted, terrible and tragic use of the cast of characters, it's a coated "big up Goku and relagate everyone else story"- Goku having the story is not the issue at all but the fact that everyone has been relagated to literally nothing characters, yes I expect the story to be about him but I at least expect other characters to play some part other than to literally hold his hand for a few seconds. Honestly I think BoG is one of the worst written things in modern DB...!

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:20 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:I think BoG (movie) is largely overrated by fans and really is not that great if you breakdown.

The cast of this film have been relegated to literal side characters, who then get completely humiliated by Beerus and unlike Goku can't redeem themselves, Piccolo got taken out by freakin' chopsticks! Vegeta spends the most film being goofy and trying to stop Beerus, the issue the more is the fact that more or less all of Vegeta's screen time in the movie is dedicated to this and when he finally gets down with Beerus the fight is over and instant and Vegeta's role then on in is to make the numbers for the ritual for Goku. The fact that a Bingo song is attributed to Vegeta's best moment in the film says it all really, it literally is the closest thing to a "shinning moment" he gets.

Goku, like atypical Z story is missing for the middle chunk of the story to build some "tension" unlike in Z no matter how contrived Goku missing was (cough Android arc cough) at least some of the cast actually got to do things but in BoG that didn't even happen, so it is like why have Goku missing for the middle part then? Then Goku shows up and everyone starts getting a hard on "omg Goku is here yay". Lo and behold Goku gets a mega power up and the real meat of the story begins.

IGN called some parts of BoG "filler" in their review and I understand why would think that as the entire middle of the film is essentially only there to show us how flimsy Beerus' attitude can get. Goku could have transmitted to Earth immediately and then wished the dragon and have everything play out from there and literally nothing would change from the movie. The whole elongated way and having Goku "observe from the sidelines" was pretty much pointless really.

The action in the film is handled awfully. There is never once a momemt until Shida's cut as an audience you can figuratively sink your teeth into, up until Goku reverts the action is so short it's over just before it began, Goku vs Beerus R1 over in a flash, then Beerus vs everyone over in a flash, Beerus vs Vegeta over in a flash, SSG Goku vs Beerus you start getting into it, okay this is aweosme oh whaaa they've stopped to talk in a cave... :roll:

The extended cut just brings up these flaws even more, less run time the film needed not more.

Aside from Beerus, Whis and the world building there really isn't much to BoG, it's thinly plotted, terrible and tragic use of the cast of characters, it's a coated "big up Goku and relagate everyone else story"- Goku having the story is not the issue at all but the fact that everyone has been relagated to literally nothing characters, yes I expect the story to be about him but I at least expect other characters to play some part other than to literally hold his hand for a few seconds. Honestly I think BoG is one of the worst written things in modern DB...!
One thing that I hate about Battle of Gods is the CGI. Soooo fake. I hate it when animation studios incorporate both 2D and 3D animation.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:37 pm

We got to see an interesting different side to Vegeta and he was given a nice bit of development when we saw his love for Bulma push him to a new level of power. I really don't see how the cast was used any worse than other movies.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:41 pm

ABED wrote:We got to see an interesting different side to Vegeta and he was given a nice bit of development when we saw his love for Bulma push him to a new level of power. I really don't see how the cast was used any worse than other movies.
That's one of the things I really liked about the film: that Vegeta truly loves Bulma.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by KBABZ » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:27 pm

Wings of the Heart is a great song if you detach it from being a credits song and make it about Gohan summoning the courage to be strong.
8000 Saiyan wrote:One thing that I hate about Battle of Gods is the CGI. Soooo fake. I hate it when animation studios incorporate both 2D and 3D animation.
For me one of the most jarring aspects of it is that the CG is often rendered at 24fps while the traditionally-animated stuff is still at 12fps, causing the two to contrast with each other horribly. In the pre-digitally-animated days it was even worse because the CG colours didn't take into account the desaturation that occurs when the hand-animated stuff got to the end result. Not to mention the poor cel-shading that occurs in most anime CG...

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:59 pm

KBABZ wrote:Wings of the Heart is a great song if you detach it from being a credits song and make it about Gohan summoning the courage to be strong.
8000 Saiyan wrote:One thing that I hate about Battle of Gods is the CGI. Soooo fake. I hate it when animation studios incorporate both 2D and 3D animation.
For me one of the most jarring aspects of it is that the CG is often rendered at 24fps while the traditionally-animated stuff is still at 12fps, causing the two to contrast with each other horribly. In the pre-digitally-animated days it was even worse because the CG colours didn't take into account the desaturation that occurs when the hand-animated stuff got to the end result. Not to mention the poor cel-shading that occurs in most anime CG...

I already love it. And I like to think its like Detekoi Tobikiri Zenkai Power in that it portrays the more gentle and innocent side of Gohan. Then again most people ALSO hate that song for not being Faulconer/Kageyama stuff.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by KBABZ » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:44 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:Wings of the Heart is a great song if you detach it from being a credits song and make it about Gohan summoning the courage to be strong.
I already love it. And I like to think its like Detekoi Tobikiri Zenkai Power in that it portrays the more gentle and innocent side of Gohan. Then again most people ALSO hate that song for not being Faulconer/Kageyama stuff.
I agree. And it actually works pretty well as the ending music for Episodes 97 and/or 98, after Gohan has achieved victory and has come at peace with the loss of his father.

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