Unpopular DB opinions

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Ripper 30
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:04 am

ABED wrote:He's no softer as an adult. He doesn't kill Piccolo for the reason Kami claims. That was conjecture. Goku spares Piccolo because he wants someone to keep him on his toes. Goku kills Yakon like he was nothing. He's not against killing peons. Of course Vegeta considers Goku soft. Anyone who isn't a ruthless bastard like him would seem so by comparison, but killing demons like Tambourine isn't hard hearted. It should be noted that Goku tried to let Black go just like Raditz. He hasn't changed. He wasn't ruthless against Freeza when he goes Super Saiyan because he learned anything. He was brutal because he was full of rage.

I find this claim that he changes to be ridiculous. Why would that change not be pointed out? Every major change the characters make is made not only explicit, it's given focus.

And let me get this straight, you think Goku is ruthless when he was younger, grows more merciful only to revert to what he was at the beginning of the story?

he does become darker AND realistic, lemme explain why : Goku for the most part is a very light hearted character in the first 100 chapters or so (Against the Red Ribbon Army, he was just killing because it was second-nature to him. he just did it because thats all he knew. He did it like how he killed animals in the wild for food, like that fish in the 1st ch.) , but undergoes a dark change in his character when the Piccolo Daimao arc starts because of Krillin's death. From there on, he's killing left and right, as he does to Tambourine, Drum & King Piccolo, out of a desire for revenge for not only Kuririn's death, but Roshi's much later. This is similar to Gon's transformation in the Chimera Ant arc in HxH. Then, Goku trains with Kami after he kills King Piccolo, finally gaining an understanding of what it means to be good and evil (because Kami is God, an old man in the sky that watches over people). This is when he starts to hesitate to kill, as he is afraid of killing Piccolo even though it means the potential saving of the world. This hesitant nature towards killing continues into the first 2 arcs of DBZ; examples of this including Goku letting go of Raditz's tail, and his scolding of Vegeta when he kills Burter, Recoome & Jeice.

This coincides with Raditz's revelation that he is a Saiyan, and this poses an internal conflict for Goku: Goku's defining characteristic at this point in the series is his purity, his "good" if you will (which we see as he can ride the Kinto'un). Saiyans on the other hand, are pure evil; they pillage planets, they kill without remorse and they conquer and sell without regard for human life. This is where his conflict stems from, because he can't imagine himself NOT being human and actually belonging to a terrible group of people like the Saiyans. The darkness to his character is also added when he realizes that he killed Grandpa Gohan once he sees Vegeta transform into an Oozaru. Its the fact that Goku felt GUILT over killing Grandpa Gohan when he saw VEGETA transform into one; he pieced together what Roshi told him & realized he killed Gohan all those years ago. The guilt is what made him a darker character, not the fact that he can turn Oozaru (actually, that too would be considered "dark" since he goes wild and destroys everything with reckless abandon. That wasn't the example I was trying to use though).
It didn't torments him but it cast him in a tragic light because he felt guilt.


This is what the main meat of his character development is: him accepting his Saiyan heritage and once again learning to kill. He denies his Saiyan heritage against Raditz, begrudgingly accepts it against Vegeta, Recoome & Ginyu, and finally accepts it when Freeza kills Vegeta. His acceptance of his Saiyan roots is heightened when he transforms into a Super Saiyan: he becomes enraged and calls himself "THE Super Saiyan". At this point, he finds out who he is, he accepts that he is not a human, that his purity was from him hitting his head, and that he has a violent and selfish tendency to do things for a good fight. The killing also comes to a head, as he finally makes up his mind to "kill" Freeza; I put kill in quotations because as we both know, Freeza doesn't die until Trunks does it. However, Goku has finally reached the mental fortitude to be able to kill once again. However, it is much different then how he was in the King Piccolo arc: Goku killed out of revenge in the King Piccolo arc, whereas here, he "kills" in a completely sane state of mind. This is what allows him to help Gohan kill Cell, and for him to later kill Yakon and Majin Boo himself in the final arc of the manga. after Namek Arc he takes a backseat as a main character. also, he makes some complex decisions which puts his character in a grey area. after Namek Arc , he is characterized imo by mainly 3 things: 1) his association/dealing with kids, like training Gohan for an year in the Room of Spirit and Time since that arc was about his relationship with his son and getting to know Gohan better, motivating him in killing cell and gain more self confidence in himself , or teaching the kids Fusion because of him wanting the new generation to take over his role since he will not be around for long , or training Uub at the end of the series...also what he tells Piccolo about giving the next generation of people a chance to defend Earth when he's not around; 2) his decision to leave Earth at the end of the Cell arc because he attracts too many bad people to Earth, showing that he is a good guy deep down and can be incredibly caring and selfless when needed ; 3) making tough decisions like threatening Kaioshin's life to fight Majin Vegeta, saving Mr Satan and Dende instead of his sons, stopping Gohan from going alone to save Piccolo from Cell , Trunks and Piccolo reveal how tough Goku's fortitude is.

thus, he isn't the same character he was as a kid in terms of treating his opponents.
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Kurakaio
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kurakaio » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:07 am

Here's my unpopular opinion:

Dragon Ball Super >= Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT= Dragon Ball.

Though I've never seen Kai, so my only memories of Z are the ones where Goku and Freeza fight for 5 hours. Dragon Ball Kai, would probably be higher that Super but idk.

Also my top 3 favorite arcs are the ToP, Goku Black Arc/Future Trunks Arc, and the Buu arc.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:52 am

Ripper, that sounds great, but I don't agree with any of it. It's not even subtext. It's just not true. Goku doesn't really ever struggle with his Saiyan heritage very much beyond when he first hears about it. Other than that, he's at ease with it. He didn't undergo a dark change when Kuririn was killed. He got upset because his best friend was murdered. That's not a change of character, it's a change in mood. And if Goku learns the different between good and evil off screen, that's crappy writing. I don't mean to sound rude, but everything you wrote sounds good on paper, but is more or less you trying to make things sound deeper than they truly are.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:02 am

People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Alruneia » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:06 am

ekrolo2 wrote:People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
To add to this, they don't really write SSJ in Japanese either.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:45 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:53 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
Well, using SS in Dragon Ball's context wouldn't be totally out of place:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cetra » Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:57 pm

People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
Except the world is not English but multilingual. I do say Saiyajin. It is Saiyajin in German, I say SSJ. There is no reason to just talk about the English version alone, if not in specific situations where it is easier to just use the same language or version of a term, which is most of the time totallly unnecessary.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:40 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
I think it’s more so that “SSJ” is a much more distinctive form of initialism than “SS”.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 pm

Cetra wrote:
People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
Except the world is not English but multilingual. I do say Saiyajin. It is Saiyajin in German, I say SSJ. There is no reason to just talk about the English version alone, if not in specific situations where it is easier to just use the same language or version of a term, which is most of the time totallly unnecessary.
If you're from a country than does it, sure, but I mostly see Americans use it and there's no real excuse for it there. There's also the fact even Japan itself frequently uses stuff like SS or SSGSS to shorten the names.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Noah » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:11 pm

ABED wrote:Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
How so?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:55 am

Noah wrote:
ABED wrote:Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
How so?
SS is often associated with the Nazi Germany squadron responsible for much of the genocide during the Holocaust.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Cetra » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:00 am

Noah wrote:
ABED wrote:Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
How so?
Because of "Schutzstaffel", like Abed also said. The guys from Indiana Jones 3.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:20 am

WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:People should stop putting J when shortening Super Saiyan, you're not saying Saiya-Jin, you're using either Sigh-an or SAY-en in English.
Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
I think it’s more so that “SSJ” is a much more distinctive form of initialism than “SS”.
This is the reason I have always used SSJ instead of SS. When I think of "SS" I think of "SS Anne" or "SS" being used before the names of boats be it fictional boats or real-life boats. I want the abbreviation to be more distinctive than using "SS." It just so happens that the Japanese language gives us a good way of making it distinctive because of the way "Saiyan" is pronounced in that language.
Kurakaio wrote: Dragon Ball Super >= Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT= Dragon Ball.
I do find this strange, do you mind elaborating? I can understand the DBS>=DBZ thing, I more or less feel the same way except the two switched. I think DBS and DBZ are very similar in quality with DBZ having a slight edge but DB is easily better written and a better story than those two. To put GT and DB as equals is mind boggling to me, because GT to me, is horrendously written and is an embarrassment to the franchise and DB is the best series in the franchise. I would appreciate if you could give some further incite into your viewpoint because I have trouble understanding it.

Also, how can you rank Z when you have very few memories of it?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:06 am

PFM18 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
I think it’s more so that “SSJ” is a much more distinctive form of initialism than “SS”.
This is the reason I have always used SSJ instead of SS. When I think of "SS" I think of "SS Anne" or "SS" being used before the names of boats be it fictional boats or real-life boats. I want the abbreviation to be more distinctive than using "SS." It just so happens that the Japanese language gives us a good way of making it distinctive because of the way "Saiyan" is pronounced in that language.
The term arose from Super Saiya-jin (SSJ). In fact, Westerners who say "Saiyan" aren't even saying it correctly but it's become so mainstream now that it's too late to change it. Most people watched DBZ growing up on 4Kids in 1998 with the Funimation dub which used this pronunciation. In Japanese, the vowel, 'a' is pronounced as 'ah' not 'ay'. Hence, "Saiyan" is not "Say-yin" but "Sai-yun". It's because people are used to saying 'say' instead of 'sah'. This led to the meme of "just saiyan" even though actually it wouldn't make sense to a Japanese. Hell, 99% of the world mispronounces "Buddha" including Asians but it's too late now since it's mainstream.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by GT_Goten10 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:12 am

PFM18 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:Perhaps SS has a negative connotation.
I think it’s more so that “SSJ” is a much more distinctive form of initialism than “SS”.
This is the reason I have always used SSJ instead of SS. When I think of "SS" I think of "SS Anne" or "SS" being used before the names of boats be it fictional boats or real-life boats. I want the abbreviation to be more distinctive than using "SS." It just so happens that the Japanese language gives us a good way of making it distinctive because of the way "Saiyan" is pronounced in that language.
Kurakaio wrote: Dragon Ball Super >= Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT= Dragon Ball.
I do find this strange, do you mind elaborating? I can understand the DBS>=DBZ thing, I more or less feel the same way except the two switched. I think DBS and DBZ are very similar in quality with DBZ having a slight edge but DB is easily better written and a better story than those two. To put GT and DB as equals is mind boggling to me, because GT to me, is horrendously written and is an embarrassment to the franchise and DB is the best series in the franchise. I would appreciate if you could give some further incite into your viewpoint because I have trouble understanding it.

Also, how can you rank Z when you have very few memories of it?
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by PFM18 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:52 am

GT_Goten10 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
I think it’s more so that “SSJ” is a much more distinctive form of initialism than “SS”.
This is the reason I have always used SSJ instead of SS. When I think of "SS" I think of "SS Anne" or "SS" being used before the names of boats be it fictional boats or real-life boats. I want the abbreviation to be more distinctive than using "SS." It just so happens that the Japanese language gives us a good way of making it distinctive because of the way "Saiyan" is pronounced in that language.
Kurakaio wrote: Dragon Ball Super >= Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT= Dragon Ball.
I do find this strange, do you mind elaborating? I can understand the DBS>=DBZ thing, I more or less feel the same way except the two switched. I think DBS and DBZ are very similar in quality with DBZ having a slight edge but DB is easily better written and a better story than those two. To put GT and DB as equals is mind boggling to me, because GT to me, is horrendously written and is an embarrassment to the franchise and DB is the best series in the franchise. I would appreciate if you could give some further incite into your viewpoint because I have trouble understanding it.

Also, how can you rank Z when you have very few memories of it?
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“embarrassment to the franchise“
Yeah I don't really care what they have to say on the matter. I do find it to be embarrassingly bad when compared to the other three series, honestly. When I recommend that people get into Dragon Ball I tell them specifically to never watch GT because it will sour you to the series. The Baby arc is pretty decent, but the rest is just downright awful.

You don't have to take offense to it, It is just the way I see things.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:39 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Hell, 99% of the world mispronounces "Buddha" including Asians but it's too late now since it's mainstream.
Wait, how is that supposed to be announced??
Don't tell me it's akin to "butter"? :think:

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:23 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Hell, 99% of the world mispronounces "Buddha" including Asians but it's too late now since it's mainstream.
Wait, how is that supposed to be announced??
Don't tell me it's akin to "butter"? :think:
People incorrectly pronounce it as "Boo-da" but this is wrong. Actually, Buddha was an Indian so the pronunciation is also derived from India. His name is said as "Budh-dha". The problem is people can't say "dha" or "dh" with the emphasis on the 'h' so it's easier to say "da" and keep the "dh" silent. That's what happened as Buddhism was spreading towards East Asia. Even Buddha's first name - Siddharth, people say it incorrectly, so it just got shortened to "Sid" which is easy to say.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:38 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Hell, 99% of the world mispronounces "Buddha" including Asians but it's too late now since it's mainstream.
Wait, how is that supposed to be announced??
Don't tell me it's akin to "butter"? :think:
People incorrectly pronounce it as "Boo-da" but this is wrong. Actually, Buddha was an Indian so the pronunciation is also derived from India. His name is said as "Budh-dha". The problem is people can't say "dha" or "dh" with the emphasis on the 'h' so it's easier to say "da" and keep the "dh" silent. That's what happened as Buddhism was spreading towards East Asia. Even Buddha's first name - Siddharth, people say it incorrectly, so it just got shortened to "Sid" which is easy to say.
Damn, imagine calling Buddha, Sid :lol:
Thanks for the explanation!

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