Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Doctor. » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:20 pm

ABED wrote:But it's also not inconsistent. We are just meeting him and he's young. That drive isn't antithetical to his character, he (and the audience) are still figuring things out.
Yes, but he doesn't really "figure things out," there's no arc. He changes when the focus of the series changes. Nobody, not him, not the narrator, not Roshi, tells you that he found his goal in life, the series just advances pretending like he's always had his goal to become the strongest and you're supposed to ignore that his personality has suffered changes. When a character changes, the story usually acknowledges it so the audience knows that it's intentional.
ABED wrote:He doesn't backtrack his arc to the extent you make it out to be. He never fully changed in the Freeza arc. He teamed up with our heroes because he needed to for survival. He stayed on Earth because of Goku and he wanted a good fight, but he still wasn't a good guy. He back tracks once in the Buu arc but that's understandable as it was the last step he needed to take before coming to the realization that he wasn't the same guy he was at the start of the story. It's like if you tell the story of an alcoholic who decides to get sobber. Having him fall off the wagon is technically a step back but can still further the story and the arc. This was Vegeta hitting rock bottom.
His arc in the Cell arc is pretty much the same as the one on Namek. I don't have an issue with his Boo arc portrayal.
ABED wrote:But not neccessarily with the implication that it's bad writing. I wrote that consistent psychology can result in inconsistent actions.
I never said he was a badly-written character.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:25 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:But it's also not inconsistent. We are just meeting him and he's young. That drive isn't antithetical to his character, he (and the audience) are still figuring things out.
Yes, but he doesn't really "figure things out," there's no arc. He changes when the focus of the series changes. Nobody, not him, not the narrator, not Roshi, tells you that he found his goal in life, the series just advances pretending like he's always had his goal to become the strongest and you're supposed to ignore that his personality has suffered changes. When a character changes, the story usually acknowledges it so the audience knows that it's intentional.
ABED wrote:He doesn't backtrack his arc to the extent you make it out to be. He never fully changed in the Freeza arc. He teamed up with our heroes because he needed to for survival. He stayed on Earth because of Goku and he wanted a good fight, but he still wasn't a good guy. He back tracks once in the Buu arc but that's understandable as it was the last step he needed to take before coming to the realization that he wasn't the same guy he was at the start of the story. It's like if you tell the story of an alcoholic who decides to get sobber. Having him fall off the wagon is technically a step back but can still further the story and the arc. This was Vegeta hitting rock bottom.
His arc in the Cell arc is pretty much the same as the one on Namek. I don't have an issue with his Boo arc portrayal.
ABED wrote:But not neccessarily with the implication that it's bad writing. I wrote that consistent psychology can result in inconsistent actions.
I never said he was a badly-written character.
I get what your issue is, but I don't need anyone to say it explicitly that Goku has discovered his goal as it's not 180 from when we meet the character. The biggest change between the first two arcs is the tonal shift from gag/adventure manga to more action oriented, but the characters still feel consistent. I don't see how his personality "suffered changes". There was a change, but it's a pretty subtle one. One could even argue that the character hasn't changed, just the circumstances he finds himself in.

It's not the same in the Cell arc. It's not a different arc, just him at a different point in his development. The Vegeta in the Saiyan arc wouldn't have stayed on Earth or gone ballistic when Cell killed his child if the events on Namek not happened to him.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by nickzambuto » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:51 pm

Doctor. wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:
ABED wrote: How is he inconsistently written?
I want to hear as well. Most of the commonly proposed inconsistencies, like his floating moral scale between prioritizing fights and prioritizing protection, I would call complexities.
They're not complexities because they're not well-developed enough to be described as such. They just come across as arbitrary decisions and changes in his personality. His insistence on sparing, say, Freeza (purely out of kindness and not a desire to fight him again) over someone like Raditz or Cell is completely arbitrary and even nonsensical. Or the fact that he becomes preoccupied with saving his opponents as an adult, while he didn't care about that as a kid, only to go back to killing them with no remorse straight (he kills Yakon and straight-up says they should kill Dabura and Cell) after the Namek arc.
Those are very different situations. Goku had surpassed Freeza utterly. He pretty much stated it outright when he tried leaving the first time; you plainly aren't a threat, therefore there is no longer a point to fighting.

Raditz and Cell WERE threats. And guess what? Despite that, he DID try very hard to spare Raditz. Remember his decision to release his tail? Raditz, like Ma Junior before him, mocked Goku for being too kind. Clearly, compassion and morals are a big part in Goku's decision making. Goku eventually killed Raditz and Cell because there was no other choice, either they die or they destroy the world. Freeza was different, because he was not a threat. What we SHOULD be asking is, if Goku were massively stronger than Raditz or Cell, would he have spared them? The answer is probably yes because that is his consistent MO. He spares villains (or tries to) when he knows he can beat them (Tao, Ma Junior, Nappa, Ginyu Force, Freeza) and he kills them when he has to (Daimao, Raditz, Cell, Boo).

This all sounds perfectly logical, sensible, and reasonable to me. I honestly agree with Goku's moral code -- we stop the threat, and if the threat is foiled, there's no reason for pointless bloodshed. That goes passed justice and is simply sadism, killing all villains even when he doesn't have to is what a saiyan would do, and Goku doesn't want to be like a saiyan.

Honestly I think Yakon is the one, sole outlier in this moral system. Goku killed him despite not really needing to. Then again, I can argue that Goku DID need to because otherwise they wouldn't be able to proceed. Babidi transported them to another planet or dimension IIRC. Goku also did not go out of his way to kill Yakon, he didn't necessarily do it on purpose, it just happened as a result of the fight. And Yakon was a gross nobody so who even cares if he dies.
Doctor. wrote:His 'Saiyan traits' were never very prominent before the Saiyan arc either. He expressed a desire to fight Piccolo again, but right in the fight with Raditz, he says he's terrified and it's Piccolo, of all people, who's excited for the fight. His enthusiasm for fighting strong opponents was definitely scaled up to 11 in part 2, go back to the first arcs of the series and he's someone much less interested in dragging out fights for his enjoyment. You'll probably say, as I also did once, that these changes are all due to Kami and Kaio's influence, his growth into an adult, coming into contact with other Saiyans reignited his Saiyan instincts and he probably figured he should stop sparring people after Freeza betrayed his trust, but those are all rationalizations, headcanon, to explain arbitrary changes and decisions that the story doesn't care enough to provide an explanation for. You shouldn't be developing the character in place of the author.
I believe all of this is part of Goku's gradual evolution.

When the series begins, he's just living alone in the woods. He has no idea of the world around him, so he's perfectly content with just living casually in solitude. When Bulma brings him into the larger world and he realizes how many interesting things there are to do, that sparks the first flame in his desire for adventure. And he states this at the conclusion of the first arc, he says something like "I never imagined the world was full of so many interesting people! This is so much fun!" so you can't say I'm just rationalizing. Goku was completely content when his whole world was just that forest, but thanks to Bulma, he grew a desire for adventure.

After that, it was Kamesennin who taught Goku to have ambition. Goku didn't seem very concerned with improving himself before meeting Bulma. After realizing how fun the world is, he asked Kamesennin to train him, but Kamesennin seemed to be very confident that Goku NEEDED to lose the 21st Budokai, otherwise he would grow content and never reach his full potential. Seeing how amazing Jackie Chun is, and soon after being beaten so easily by Tao, are what made Goku realize there are always higher levels to strive for. Again, you can't say this is me just rationalizing, because Kamesennin explained all of this outright, it was the entire point of that arc.

After that, Karin is the one who taught Goku that hard work is what will lead to success. Goku climbed the tower expecting a magic potion to grant him strength. Karin told him that such shortcuts don't exist, but all of his hard work is what led to him becoming stronger. Stomping Tao right after this is a very important event, because it taught Goku that hard work and training really will lead to him succeeding. So this is where he got that mentality. Once again you can not say this is a rationalization or headcanon, because the fact that Karin tricked Goku is very important, Goku learning that hard work pays off more than shortcuts do was the entire point of that section of the arc.

And by this point, Goku had clearly begun expressing saiyan traits. He was expressing saiyan traits since the very beginning because he clearly enjoyed fighting Yamcha, but by this point, his whole dream is to win the Tenkaichi Budokai. Another user made a great point about how Goku's attitude is completely different between the 21st and 22nd Budokais. At the 21st, he's not taking it seriously at all, it's just fun and games because he is a kid. By the 22nd, he's dead fucking serious, paying close attention to every fight and analyzing all the competition, he's planning strategies for future fights before they even happen, he came to win, end of story.

By the time he fights Ma Junior, his battle lust has grown even more. And there's no specific impetus for his battle lust to have grown, like there were impetuses for his sense of adventure (Bulma), ambition (Kamesennin), and hardworking attitude (Karin). But I don't think there needs to be, it makes sense that this is just a symptom of Goku getting older, continually pushing new boundaries, and continually facing more and more challenging foes. Just as the fights get more exciting for us as the series continues, so do they for Goku. Piccolo was a whole new level of competition compared to everyone before, so it makes sense that with each raising of the stakes, each fight being more exciting than the last, Goku would grow to crave battle more and more.

You say that Goku's battle cravings went up to 11 after this point, but wouldn't that make sense if every new battle is more exciting than the last? This is definitely a clearcut character arc for Goku, because it all came to a head during BoG. Goku's lust for battle has been growing nonstop since day 1; initially fighting was just a game, then it became something serious at the 22nd Budokai, then it became his whole life at the 23ed Budokai, and things just kept getting more and more extreme, and Goku kept craving more and more. Why? Because he kept winning. He kept succeeding. Naturally, success after success after success after success had an impact on Goku's mentality. He started growing more and more arrogant as time went on. We can see this mostly with his attitudes towards Cell and Boo. And don't say that Goku hasn't faced nonstop success, because even if he does have many losses on his record, the fact is that he always succeeds in the end. He always surpasses the odds or reaches a new height previously thought inconceivable. Honestly the idea that his ego has been slowly swelling over time makes perfect sense, and BoG was all about him being taken down a peg. You always win and beat the odds, but look at this Beerus guy. He's a million times stronger than you, and this time, you didn't beat the odds. He can kill you and destroy Earth if he wants to. And even if you did beat the odds barely like usual, his attendant Whis is stronger still. And even if you somehow beat that as well, there are 12 other universes and who knows what level those guys are on.

It all feels perfectly organic to me. To summarize, Goku's battle lust grows and his arrogance grows because he keeps reaching new heights. I'm not making headcanon or rationalizing because this is very realistic. It happens to real people. The adrenaline Goku feels when he fights and succeeds is like a drug high, and drug addicts are always searching for higher and higher highs.
Doctor. wrote:You can call this all development if you want, but Goku has almost no arcs,
Losing the 21st Budokai to learn the lesson of never being content is an arc. So was learning the lesson that there are no shortcuts and hard work truly pays off.

My favorite arc for Goku is when he transforms into a Super Saiyan and has the opportunity to experience what it's like to be a saiyan. Goku spent his whole life saving the world from threats like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo, and the twist that he was destined to be worse than all of them is very interesting irony to me. So when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, he finally gives into his race's nature and becomes bloodthirsty, sadistic, and filled with rage. Kaio laments over this fact and says that the Goku everybody knows is gone, so once again, you can't say this is rationalization, it's made very clear in the story that Goku has become like his people. It's during the fight with Freeza where Goku comes to realize, he doesn't WANT to be like his people. Originally he just hit his head and that made him good. It was sheer dumb luck, and therefore, questionable whether Goku was actually a good person or not. Now that he is given the opportunity to revel in bloodlust and become the person he was born to be, only now does he have the CHOICE to be good or bad, and he CHOOSES to be good. But people don't get it because all of this is shown with actions and not words. Goku doesn't have a big speech explaining his character conflict; instead, he shows what's happening with his actions by outright threatening Gohan, and then torturing Freeza, then after fighting and experiencing bloodlust, he makes the decision to leave the fight and spare Freeza, CHOOSING not to be like the saiyans.

That's really good stuff if you ask me. Phooey to anyone who says Toriyama isn't a great writer.
Doctor. wrote:but Goku has almost no arcs, outside of his acceptance of his Saiyan heritage in the Saiyan and Namek arcs (which is also somewhat poorly done, considering he acknowledges himself as a Saiyan the moment he meets Kaio);
It's an acknowledgement of fact. Goku isn't in denial, nobody ever said he's delusional and clings to a fantasy that he's a human. Admitting to Kaio that he is a saiyan was in reference to Kaio saying the saiyans might be too strong for him. There's no inconsistency with this character arc because even though Goku acknowledges the fact that he is biologically a saiyan, the important thing is that he still denies their ideologies and being like them. There's nothing wrong with Goku admitting to Kaio that he is a saiyan, Goku being some kind of delusional idiot telling everybody that he's a human wouldn't be interesting. He knows that he's a saiyan, but that doesn't matter, he's still choosing not to be like them. Later on he changes his mind and decides to accept certain aspects of being a saiyan, because Vegeta earns his respect. Then after that he becomes a full-blown saiyan filled with bloodlust and anger, but he rejects that and chooses to be himself. In the end, it's only by combining his saiyan and earthling heritage that Goku is able to reach an unprecedented level of power. It's ironic that a Super Saiyan is actually a lot more powerful when they have a calm heart as opposed to an angry one (referring to the Full Power Super Saiyan form he used against Cell)
Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:People can have inconsistent actions for a number of reasons, even if their psychology is consistent. Goku has a goal that he never waivers from - to be the best and have the most interesting fights.
And even that goal is one that he only gains after the first arc of the series and his training with Roshi, with seemingly no reason for the change (besides the out-of-universe decision on Toriyama's part to turn the series into a tournament-based battle manga by that point, which is obviously why Goku's personality changed somewhat drastically from one arc to the other). He really didn't seem all that interested in becoming the best, or even fighting in general, in the first arc.
He didn't seem interested in being the best in the first arc because his whole world was that little section of forest. He doesn't really become interested in being the best until the 22nd tournament.

First he has to develop a desire for fun and adventure.
Then he has to develop a genuine ambition. During the 21st, the whole thing is just a game for Goku, he isn't taking it seriously. Losing to Jackie Chun, and being pulverized by Tao, then realizing that he can not help Upa, all in sequence, is the reason Goku developed that desire to become stronger. There's this really great sequence of panels right after the fight with Tao, where there's no dialogue, Goku just looks at his hands, realizes he does not have the strength to defeat Tao, then looks up at Karin's Tower, and that is when he makes the decision to become stronger.
Then he is rewarded for his ambition and hard work by utterly surpassing Tao. That is a high. Goku keeps getting these highs as he fights more and more interesting people, and because of that, his battle lust gradually grows.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by nickzambuto » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:16 pm

ABED wrote:Daimao was a revenge story.
The RRA because they kept coming after him and Tao Pai Pai was hired to kill him, so naturally he's going to go after them. Plus, he wanted their DB's.
Goku not being a superhero doesn't mean he's not heroic or that he's a villain, it just means that his fundamental goal is to have the best fights. He has momentary goals that often have him saving people, but that doesn't make him a superhero.

I wouldn't include Goku in a list of superheroes because any conception of that term wouldn't include characters that actively let bad guys go for the sake of a fight.
It would be very convenient for me if you could quote what you are replying to above your response. Right now I'm not sure what you're point is with this. Yes, Daimao was definitely a revenge story. I agree with you that Goku does not go and actively seek out injustice, there's no debate there. But once again Goku does not actively let bad guys go for the sake of a fight. Vegeta is the only instance where he did that.
ABED wrote:
Refusing to punish Gero for things he hadn't done yet, and going out of his way to spare Vegeta's pride, are both two very strong examples of Goku being incredibly empathetic
Neither are true. The latter is a plot hole and the former isn't empathetic at all. It was a flaccid excuse to let him create a strong opponent. I will give you that the definition of a superhero is broad and up for debate, but you are incorrect about this issue. The text proves you wrong. Saying Dr. Gero wasn't guilty of anything yet is not the driving reason.
You're putting your own headcanon into the debate. The fact is this; when Bulma turns to Goku and says we should kill Gero now, Goku says that punishing Gero for things he hasn't technically done yet feels wrong, AND ALSO he kinda wants to fight the androids. I just checked the manga, and Goku has both of these motivations when he makes his decision. At worst case scenario, neither one took precedence over the other, but at best case, the fight was an afterthought and Goku's main concern was that it felt wrong to punish somebody for something they hadn't done.
ABED wrote:I would say it is in fact immoral to let a bad guy go when you can stop them with minimal effort or when you have the bad guy dead to rights and you let them leave because you want to fight them later.
That's your opinion. If you disagree with Goku's moral conclusions, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact Goku is making actions out of MORALITY. His motivation is WHAT HE FEELS IS RIGHT, not JUST a desire for battles. So he's not selfish.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:23 pm

You're putting your own headcanon into the debate. The fact is this; when Bulma turns to Goku and says we should kill Gero now, Goku says that punishing Gero for things he hasn't technically done yet feels wrong, AND ALSO he kinda wants to fight the androids. I just checked the manga, and Goku has both of these motivations when he makes his decision. At worst case scenario, neither one took precedence over the other, but at best case, the fight was an afterthought and Goku's main concern was that it felt wrong to punish somebody for something they hadn't done.
First, headcanon isn't a thing. Second, it's in the text. He doesn't spend a whole lot of time on the point about the ethics of it. It's a comment that's thrown out. It's a pseudo-justification, but not the fundamental reason. It's not head canon, it's both text and sub-text.
That's your opinion. If you disagree with Goku's moral conclusions, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact Goku is making actions out of MORALITY. His motivation is WHAT HE FEELS IS RIGHT, not JUST a desire for battles. So he's not selfish.
Every character believes they are the hero of their own story or at the very least need to feel justified, but that doesn't mean they are actually justified in their choices. Goku sometimes acknowledges that what he's doing isn't the most moral choice.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Doctor. » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:24 pm

nickzambuto wrote:Those are very different situations. Goku had surpassed Freeza utterly. He pretty much stated it outright when he tried leaving the first time; you plainly aren't a threat, therefore there is no longer a point to fighting.
Freeza is still a threat to the rest of the universe, you know?
nickzambuto wrote:Honestly I think Yakon is the one, sole outlier in this moral system. Goku killed him despite not really needing to. Then again, I can argue that Goku DID need to because otherwise they wouldn't be able to proceed. Babidi transported them to another planet or dimension IIRC. Goku also did not go out of his way to kill Yakon, he didn't necessarily do it on purpose, it just happened as a result of the fight. And Yakon was a gross nobody so who even cares if he dies.
Yakon isn't the sole outlier. He also wanted to kill Dabura, when he could have simply wished Kuririn and Piccolo back with the dragon balls and undo his stone spit. His moral code is simply arbitrary and inconsistent and it bends to whatever Toriyama feels like at the time.
I believe all of this is part of Goku's gradual evolution.

[...] First he has to develop a desire for fun and adventure.
Then he has to develop a genuine ambition.
You say he develops, but he doesn't develop at all. The story doesn't acknowledge these changes. You're just trying to rationalize arbitrary and inconsistent changes in his personality with your own headcanon, like below.
And he states this at the conclusion of the first arc, he says something like "I never imagined the world was full of so many interesting people! This is so much fun!" so you can't say I'm just rationalizing. Goku was completely content when his whole world was just that forest, but thanks to Bulma, he grew a desire for adventure.
Yes, he had a desire for adventure, but not a desire for fighting. His desire for fighting and to become the best comes out of nowhere and without proper explanation. It exists because the focus of the series changed.
After that, it was Kamesennin who taught Goku to have ambition. Goku didn't seem very concerned with improving himself before meeting Bulma. After realizing how fun the world is, he asked Kamesennin to train him, but Kamesennin seemed to be very confident that Goku NEEDED to lose the 21st Budokai, otherwise he would grow content and never reach his full potential. Seeing how amazing Jackie Chun is, and soon after being beaten so easily by Tao, are what made Goku realize there are always higher levels to strive for. Again, you can't say this is me just rationalizing, because Kamesennin explained all of this outright, it was the entire point of that arc.
Roshi himself acknowledged by the end of the arc that he had no reason to be worried about, so you really can't claim that Goku learned anything at all from the experience. He seemed to have that mindset from the get-go.
After that, Karin is the one who taught Goku that hard work is what will lead to success. Goku climbed the tower expecting a magic potion to grant him strength. Karin told him that such shortcuts don't exist, but all of his hard work is what led to him becoming stronger. Stomping Tao right after this is a very important event, because it taught Goku that hard work and training really will lead to him succeeding. So this is where he got that mentality. Once again you can not say this is a rationalization or headcanon, because the fact that Karin tricked Goku is very important, Goku learning that hard work pays off more than shortcuts do was the entire point of that section of the arc.
Again, this is all very nice and well thought-out, but you're ignoring that Goku already had that mindset when he started training. He tried to steal Karin's water but turned around halfway through. He already knew that cheating would get him nowhere and he'd be better off with hard work. Karin didn't have to teach him anything because Goku already had the proper mindset to begin with. There was no arc, there was no development. You'd have a point if Goku actually did steal the water and Karin had to lecture him, but that didn't happen, so no progress was actually made.
But I don't think there needs to be, it makes sense that this is just a symptom of Goku getting older, continually pushing new boundaries, and continually facing more and more challenging foes. Just as the fights get more exciting for us as the series continues, so do they for Goku. Piccolo was a whole new level of competition compared to everyone before, so it makes sense that with each raising of the stakes, each fight being more exciting than the last, Goku would grow to crave battle more and more.
I mean, sure, I agree, it makes sense. The only problem is that right in the next arc he's completely terrified of Raditz and admits this outright. His characterization just comes across as incredibly inconsistent as a result.
Why? Because he kept winning. He kept succeeding. [...] And don't say that Goku hasn't faced nonstop success, because even if he does have many losses on his record, the fact is that he always succeeds in the end. He always surpasses the odds or reaches a new height previously thought inconceivable.
But he didn't, though, did he? He kept losing. He lost against Jackie Chun and he lost against Tenshinhan. And he was out of commission throughout most of Z, too. Your narrative doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you take all of that into account.

He doesn't really face success either. Tournaments are 1-on-1 battles and he lost 2 out of the 3 he entered, so that's not much success there. And the rest of his fights to save the Earth were all team battles. He "won" because his friends were there to help him, he doesn't overcome the odds purely by himself. His only solo victories were against Daimao (which is why Mr. Popo's lesson, later recycled for Beerus' and Whis', actually makes sense here) and Jr., those were the only times he didn't need any help. And even when he "wins" he still loses, like in the Cell arc where he had to die.

I agree that ramping up his battle lust to 11 ultimately made him a much more interesting character (and I'd like to see that aspect of him explored some more in Super) but it's not a very organic progression. He conveniently becomes a much more reckless individual blinded by his own battle boner by the time Toriyama started thinking about writing the Saiyan arc. His ego being through the roof by the time BoG comes around and him condescendingly thinking he doesn't need his friends for anything are all very interesting ideas, but they don't make sense in the context of the series considering that Goku definitely loses a lot more than he wins and that he always needs his friends' help when he does actually succeed.
To summarize, Goku's battle lust grows and his arrogance grows because he keeps reaching new heights. I'm not making headcanon or rationalizing because this is very realistic. It happens to real people. The adrenaline Goku feels when he fights and succeeds is like a drug high, and drug addicts are always searching for higher and higher highs.
Yes, it happens to real people. But the story doesn't acknowledge these changes in Goku's character. He's treated, at the end of the series, like the same character he was at the beginning, when we know this isn't the case. It doesn't feel organic because the changes aren't intentional. You're just creating a narrative to try to fit all of these changes together but your narrative isn't actually laid out in the story for everyone to read.
My favorite arc for Goku is when he transforms into a Super Saiyan and has the opportunity to experience what it's like to be a saiyan. Goku spent his whole life saving the world from threats like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo, and the twist that he was destined to be worse than all of them is very interesting irony to me. So when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, he finally gives into his race's nature and becomes bloodthirsty, sadistic, and filled with rage. Kaio laments over this fact and says that the Goku everybody knows is gone, so once again, you can't say this is rationalization, it's made very clear in the story that Goku has become like his people. It's during the fight with Freeza where Goku comes to realize, he doesn't WANT to be like his people. Originally he just hit his head and that made him good. It was sheer dumb luck, and therefore, questionable whether Goku was actually a good person or not. Now that he is given the opportunity to revel in bloodlust and become the person he was born to be, only now does he have the CHOICE to be good or bad, and he CHOOSES to be good. But people don't get it because all of this is shown with actions and not words. Goku doesn't have a big speech explaining his character conflict; instead, he shows what's happening with his actions by outright threatening Gohan, and then torturing Freeza, then after fighting and experiencing bloodlust, he makes the decision to leave the fight and spare Freeza, CHOOSING not to be like the saiyans.
I think Goku's Super Saiyan transformation is also the time Goku's character was at its best, mostly for the same reasons you highlighted, but I think you're overthinking it a bit. Neither him nor the story proper actually dwell on the implications of whether the accident gave him or took away the choice to be a good or bad person and I don't really think Goku cares. The point of him sparing Freeza is that he stays true to himself, rather than give in to his barbaric instincts. Which is mostly what you said, but you're going too far and trying to tie it in with things that are never given a second thought in the actual story.
Phooey to anyone who says Toriyama isn't a great writer.
He has his strong suits and his occasional moments of brilliance, but he's also plagued with a ton of shortcomings.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:26 pm

He has his strong suits and his occasional moments of brilliance, but he's also plagued with a ton of shortcomings.
Agreed, and I think we will all agree that his strengths far outweigh his shortcomings. If they didn't, we wouldn't be fans.
AND ALSO he kinda wants to fight the androids
He doesn't kinda, he really wants to.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by nickzambuto » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:31 pm

ABED wrote:
AND ALSO he kinda wants to fight the androids
He doesn't kinda, he really wants to.
Now you're just getting into the minutia of translations.

The point is that at least half of Goku's motivation was the moral aspect. Please go take a look at your manga, you might have forgotten this line but Goku voices his reasons very clearly; he doesn't want to attack Gero because it's wrong, AND ALSO he wants to fight the androids.

This proves that morals and the right thing to do play a role in Goku's decision making process.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:38 pm

Not even half. The line is thrown away. It's mentioned once and the rest of it is all about the fight. I know the line to which you are referring. I know the scene very well and that's not a big motivating factor for him. It's a rationalization. He wants to fight the cyborgs and he's reaching for any reason to get everyone on board. It's also ridiculous as a reason on the very face of it because they can stop Gero with minimal effort the sooner they intervene. You are dropping context. It's not just the line itself but how it is delivered.

ANd I never said ethics don't play a part, but it's not the primary factor. Why must I constantly have to write this? Is it unclear? Yes, he's a hero, but his fundamental drive isn't saving people. He's very concrete bound, so putting innocent life in danger in the abstract doesn't concern him until he's face to face with it. He does save people but not his reason for being. He helps people he finds along the way, but he's not out looking for them.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by nickzambuto » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:43 pm

ABED wrote:Not even half. The line is thrown away. It's mentioned once and the rest of it is all about the fight. I know the line to which you are referring. I know the scene very well and that's not a big motivating factor for him. It's a rationalization. He wants to fight the cyborgs and he's reaching for any reason to get everyone on board. It's also ridiculous as a reason on the very face of it because they can stop Gero with minimal effort the sooner they intervene. You are dropping context. It's not just the line itself but how it is delivered.

ANd I never said ethics don't play a part, but it's not the primary factor. Why must I constantly have to write this? Is it unclear? Yes, he's a hero, but his fundamental drive isn't saving people. He's very concrete bound, so putting innocent life in danger in the abstract doesn't concern him until he's face to face with it. He does save people but not his reason for being. He helps people he finds along the way, but he's not out looking for them.
But what's your evidence for all of this? It just sounds like your interpretation. Here are the facts; Goku only has two lines during that whole debate. Bulma asks him what he wants to do, and he says both that punishing Gero is wrong and also that he wants to fight. Both factors are given equal focus by Goku.

OTHER characters around him put focus on the fighting. Vegeta does and so does Tenshinhan. But that has nothing to do with Goku, he put equal focus on the moral aspect.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:55 pm

Given his whole character, the story's genre, Nozawa's delivery, and no one stops to think of a very obvious rebuttal to that point leads me to say that. Plus, he was told Dr. Gero worked for the Red Ribbon Army. He might not have finished the cyborgs, but he did work for an evil organization. What about Goku's character leads YOU to say that he cares about stopping someone before they start a fight?

The other character weren't the ones putting the focus on fighting. They were all in agreement with Goku, they weren't trying to convince him of anything.
Both factors are given equal focus by Goku.
That's YOUR interpretation.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:11 am

Don't forget his talk with Trunks, where he's very disappointed, that he doesn't get to fight the androids before Trunks presents the medicine to him.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:14 am

I don't know if this qualifies, but people need to stop using "asspull". It's unnecessary. There's already a well known term that applies - deus ex machina.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:10 am

ABED wrote:I don't know if this qualifies, but people need to stop using "asspull". It's unnecessary. There's already a well known term that applies - deus ex machina.
It's much longer, though.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:31 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
ABED wrote:I don't know if this qualifies, but people need to stop using "asspull". It's unnecessary. There's already a well known term that applies - deus ex machina.
It's much longer, though.
But not as childish.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:24 pm

I assume this thread is also valid for the fanbase?!
I usually don't find memes funny. Stuff like "It's over 9000!!!", "This isn't even my final form." TFS quotes, etc...is just annoying at this point, but the Ultra Instinct videos that have been popping up on youtube are amusing me.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:29 pm

The Copy Vegeta stuff is fantastic, the best development Vegeta has gotten since, I dunno, Namek, and the best part of Super.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:26 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:I assume this thread is also valid for the fanbase?!
I usually don't find memes funny. Stuff like "It's over 9000!!!", "This isn't even my final form." TFS quotes, etc...is just annoying at this point, but the Ultra Instinct videos that have been popping up on youtube are amusing me.
Over 9000 definitely takes the crown for "thing that was never, at any point in time, ever even remotely close to funny even accidentally". Very, very few TFS quotes are intermittently mildly amusing, but 99.9% of the time are also pretty damn annoying. Haven't seen any of these Ultra Instinct videos though.

Memes in general are as a whole fairly brain cancerous.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:34 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:I assume this thread is also valid for the fanbase?!
I usually don't find memes funny. Stuff like "It's over 9000!!!", "This isn't even my final form." TFS quotes, etc...is just annoying at this point, but the Ultra Instinct videos that have been popping up on youtube are amusing me.
Over 9000 definitely takes the crown for "thing that was never, at any point in time, ever even remotely close to funny even accidentally". Very, very few TFS quotes are intermittently mildly amusing, but 99.9% of the time are also pretty damn annoying. Haven't seen any of these Ultra Instinct videos though.

Memes in general are as a whole fairly brain cancerous.
Annoying for sure, but cancerous?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by TheGodfather93 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:14 am

I think Chi-Chi gets way too much undeserved hate from a large portion of the fanbase, either because of the way she's portrayed in anime filler or because because they see her as the main obstacle preventing them from living out their Gohan power fantasies. While she's not my favourite female character in Dragon Ball, I don't hate her at all, and actually sympathise with her for what she has to put up with.
Kunzait_83 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:I assume this thread is also valid for the fanbase?!
I usually don't find memes funny. Stuff like "It's over 9000!!!", "This isn't even my final form." TFS quotes, etc...is just annoying at this point, but the Ultra Instinct videos that have been popping up on youtube are amusing me.
Over 9000 definitely takes the crown for "thing that was never, at any point in time, ever even remotely close to funny even accidentally". Very, very few TFS quotes are intermittently mildly amusing, but 99.9% of the time are also pretty damn annoying. Haven't seen any of these Ultra Instinct videos though.

Memes in general are as a whole fairly brain cancerous.
While I disagree that memes in general are cancerous (there are some pretty neat ones), I do agree that a lot of TFS jokes have become incredibly annoying. The one that annoys me the most is the Gohan dodge joke, which was mildly amusing at first, but is now so popular and widespread it's the exact opposite of funny.
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