"Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

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"Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Saiga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:07 am

Not entirely sure if this is the right place for it, buuuuut...

Something I've been wondering is how Super Saiyan 2 didn't get labelled as such until the introduction of Super Saiyan 3. I know in the manga they use cryptic terms to refer to the form (Super Saiyan beyond Super Saiyan or something like that) but was there any material published between Gohan's first use of the form and Goku's labelling of it that referred to it at all? If so, how did it refer to the form?

I'm also a little bit unclear on how the original Japanese refers to it in the manga before labelling it, so any information about that would also be appreciated.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Drabaz » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:52 am

That's very interesting. I have noticed it not being named, but at first by the time I finally saw the Gohan vs Cell fight, I already knew about SSJ2 through the internet. So when Gohan finally transformed I immediately labeled it as SSJ2 instead of a Super Saiyan that has ascended past his limits. I still feel there wouldn't be a need to label it as SSJ2 if SSJ3 didn't exist.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by hleV » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:17 am

Drabaz wrote:I still feel there wouldn't be a need to label it as SSJ2 if SSJ3 didn't exist.
Well yeah. Same goes to Kaiō-Ken. At first it was just Kaiō-Ken, but just before introducing Kaiō-Ken x3, the former had to become Kaiō-Ken x2 (the only difference being that Kaiō-Ken starts out as x2).

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Mewzard » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:14 pm

hleV wrote:
Drabaz wrote:I still feel there wouldn't be a need to label it as SSJ2 if SSJ3 didn't exist.
Well yeah. Same goes to Kaiō-Ken. At first it was just Kaiō-Ken, but just before introducing Kaiō-Ken x3, the former had to become Kaiō-Ken x2 (the only difference being that Kaiō-Ken starts out as x2).
I just go with Kaiō-Ken as being a 1.5x multiplier. He distinctly goes from using Kaiō-Ken to almost immediately after using Kaiō-Ken x2 afterwards, It wasn't long at all before Toriyama did x3. And he even told Goku to not take it over two times, didn't he (I guess I could check my manga if nobody remembers for sure)?
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Insertclevername » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:40 pm

I wonder what kids in Japan called that form prior it being called Super Saiya-jin 2? Come to think of it, I wonder if there were any toys of SSJ2 Gohan that came out before that episode/chapter?
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by hleV » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:23 am

Mewzard wrote: I just go with Kaiō-Ken as being a 1.5x multiplier.
Then you're going against Toriyama because he stated in the manga that Kaiō-Ken doubles Gokū's power.
And he even told Goku to not take it over two times, didn't he
Yes, but "two times" is Kaiō-Ken x2 (which doubles Gokū's power) and is an initial Kaiō-Ken which at first didn't need the "x2" because "x3" wasn't introduced yet.
Last edited by hleV on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Saiga » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:24 am

Insertclevername wrote:I wonder what kids in Japan called that form prior it being called Super Saiya-jin 2? Come to think of it, I wonder if there were any toys of SSJ2 Gohan that came out before that episode/chapter?
That's also something I'd really like to know, if there is anyone who could answer it.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Drabaz » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:25 am

hleV wrote:
Mewzard wrote:
And he even told Goku to not take it over two times, didn't he
Yes, but "two times" is Kaiō-Ken x2 (which doubles Gokū's power) and is an initial Kaiō-Ken which at first didn't need the "x2" because "x3" wasn't introduced yet.
I thought it went Kaiō-Ken, Kaiō-Ken x2, Kaiō-Ken x3, ect. I could be wrong though.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by hleV » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:31 am

Drabaz wrote:I thought it went Kaiō-Ken, Kaiō-Ken x2, Kaiō-Ken x3, ect. I could be wrong though.
"x2" is only added when Gokū is soon to use a stronger Kaiō-Ken (x3 and etc.) to avoid confusion, but otherwise Gokū doesn't bother to shout out the "x2" part (like against Nappa, Vegeta at first, Ginyu). If Kaiō-Ken and Kaiō-Ken x2 were separate, and we know that Kaiō-Ken doubles Gokū's power, then Kaiō-Ken x2 would what... triple his power? We have an official confirmation that KKx3 Gokū was 24,000 and KKx4 Gokū was 32,000, so it's 3x and 4x 8,000 respectively.

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:44 pm

About Goku's comment "I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2", it doesn't nessesarily divide Kaio-ken & Kaio-ken x2 in two different levels. Goku could have said "I can’t keep up with my base power, not even with the Kaio-Ken x2". He used the "Kaio-ken x2" term because he was going to say "Kaio-ken x3" after that. At least that's how I view this to make more sense.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Saiga » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:37 pm

And against Ginyu, he uses the Kaio-ken x2 but just says Kaio-ken. I do believe they're interchangeable.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Cold Skin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:51 pm

Saiga wrote:
Insertclevername wrote:I wonder what kids in Japan called that form prior it being called Super Saiya-jin 2? Come to think of it, I wonder if there were any toys of SSJ2 Gohan that came out before that episode/chapter?
That's also something I'd really like to know, if there is anyone who could answer it.
It probably had many creative names given by fans.

I remember for sure the old French dub had Gohan naming this state when facing Kibito: he called it "Transcendental Super Saiyan" - or actually "Transcendental Super Warrior" at the time since "Super Saiyan" was "Super Warrior" in the old French dub.

This is less sure, but I think I do remember the old French dub - or the official magazines and possibly fans back then - also came up with the names "Super Super Saiyan" (or actually "Super Super Warrior"), and also "Hyper Saiyan" (actually "Hyper Warrior") for SS2 and "Mega Saiyan" (actually "Mega Warrior") for SS3.

So I guess Japanese fans and productions made up various names like this too, "Ultra Saiyan", "Super Saiyan Beyond", "Ultimate Saiyan", "Lightning Super Saiyan" and others...
But I'd truly love to have someone actually knowing about examples of what they came up with back then out there. 8)

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Blade » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:55 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but the only time it's ever referred to as 'Super Saiyan 2' is when Goku confronts Majin Buu and Babidi.

He says something along the lines of: "We call this an Ascended Super Saiyan, but I guess you can call this a 'Super Saiyan 2.'"

From that point onwards it's never mentioned again and only documented by fans who look out for 'the lightening'. There are a few moments before the end of Dragonball Z with Goku in particular which are pretty clear cut to my eyes in that he clearly transforms from Super Saiyan upto Super Saiyan 2, but apart from that it becomes a little bit confusing - especially in GT, which appears to use elements of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 interchangeably at will.

As for the 'Ascended Saiyan' naming I think personally that it's the correct terminology with which to describe the transformation before Goku's demonstration to Buu and Babidi. It's the buzz-word for the Cell arc used by everyone to describe the efforts of the Saiyans to surpass a Super Saiyan. Whilst some people ascribe it to the 'USSJ' form I see it as being a similar scenario to Vegeta's understanding of what a 'Super Saiyan' was before Goku transformed. On multiple occasions he referred to both himself and Goku as being Super Saiyans at various points on Namek before Goku actually transformed and I think there is sufficient evidence in the Manga and the Anime to suggest this to be the case again with the 'Ascended Saiyan' transformation.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Saiga » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:56 am

I was sure "Ascended Saiyan" was a dub term, though.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:23 am

Yep, Ascended (Super) Saiyan is dub-only.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by omegalucas » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:02 am

Cold Skin wrote: This is less sure, but I think I do remember the old French dub - or the official magazines and possibly fans back then - also came up with the names "Super Super Saiyan" (or actually "Super Super Warrior"), and also "Hyper Saiyan" (actually "Hyper Warrior") for SS2 and "Mega Saiyan" (actually "Mega Warrior") for SS3.
I still get shivers (in a bad way) during that scene in the Portuguese dub. "This is the level that surpasses the Super Warrior level, let's call it Hyper Warrior. And this is the Mega Warrior!" (that's not a word for word translation of our dub since I don't remember the dialogue exactly, so it's probably a bit closer to the F version for some reason...). I'm glad they used "Super Warrior 3" and "Super Warrior 4" in GT.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Puto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:56 am

GT's Portuguese dub used Super Warrior 4, but it still used Super Super Warrior for SS3. IIRC there wasn't any utterance of "Super Guerreiro Três" in GT.
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by omegalucas » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:03 pm

Puto wrote:GT's Portuguese dub used Super Warrior 4, but it still used Super Super Warrior for SS3. IIRC there wasn't any utterance of "Super Guerreiro Três" in GT.
Really? I thought there was an episode named "O poder do Super Guerreiro 3 é derrotado" or something...
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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by SSJ4_Zankuto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:14 pm

I do label Super Saiyan 2 as 'True Transcendent Super Saiyan' before Goku mentioned it, because Trunks says something along the lines about SSjin 2 Gohan "He did it right without losing speed" that signals that Gohan is using a form different from his USSjin form but did it right.

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Re: "Super Saiyan 2" before Goku named it

Post by Fox666 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:35 pm

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