Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:37 am

Saiga wrote:Because that was before his energy was drained? Or, because he hadn't begun fighting and exhausting himself yet (like he had with Dabra?)
Gohan should have already recovered his lost energy, since there wasn't any sign of him getting tired, or any comment about his ki being lower than normal. And besides, we saw Goku & Vegeta later being much more exhausted & injured than Gohan was against Dabra, and they still had the sparks. And in Gohan's case, the sparks are not even the only issue. He looks exactly like a Super Saiyan, and has zero traits of Super Saiyan 2.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Saiga » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:39 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Saiga wrote:Because that was before his energy was drained? Or, because he hadn't begun fighting and exhausting himself yet (like he had with Dabra?)
Gohan should have already recovered his lost energy, since there wasn't any sign of him getting tired, or any comment about his ki being lower than normal. And besides, we saw Goku & Vegeta later being much more exhausted & injured than Gohan was against Dabra, and they still had the sparks. And in Gohan's case, the sparks are not even the only issue. He looks exactly like a Super Saiyan, and has zero traits of Super Saiyan 2.
By the time their battle was through, they didn't have sparks either while Goku still had the SS2 hairstyle. And there's no indication that Gohan recovered all of his energy.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by SongOfStorms125 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:54 am

Joke: Oh I how I knew this thread would dissolve into Gohan vs. Dabra SS2 debate LOL.

I think from a narrative perspective considering that he had turned your mentor and friend into stone eliminating Dabra should have been Gohan’s primary focus, so I don’t see why regardless on the Sparks or no Sparks or a certain particular Style of hair and the empty location why Gohan Would not Turn SS2. Edit: Acually from what i remember Gohan forgets defeating Dabra will release Piccolo and Kuririn until Vegeta in his rage brings it up, which could mean that he forgot his primary role for entering Babidi's ship, but i've never considered Gohan as a forgetful character.

Especially considering in the anime (I don’t know about the manga, sorry) he showed Kibit SS2 at the tournament which due to the hundreds of people in the audience would be the ideal place to hold back.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:53 am

Saiga wrote:By the time their battle was through, they didn't have sparks either while Goku still had the SS2 hairstyle.
Both he & Goku had sparks, until Vegeta knocked out Goku. Vegeta briefly had no sparks & Super Saiyan aura, and after eating a senzu, he powered up again into Super Saiyan 2 (note that Vegeta's aura while powering up has exactly the same shape as Gohan's when he first transformed into Super Saiyan 2).

ImageImage

Saiga wrote:And there's no indication that Gohan recovered all of his energy.
There is also no indication that Gohan wasn't at full power (rage & SS2 not included).
Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH on Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Saiga » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:55 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: There is also no indication that Gohan wasn't at full power (rage & SS2 not included).
True, but I was referring to you saying that Gohan should have recovered his fully energy.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:09 am

Saiga wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: There is also no indication that Gohan wasn't at full power (rage & SS2 not included).
True, but I was referring to you saying that Gohan should have recovered his fully energy.
I know. What I'm saying is that there wasn't any indication that Gohan had a problem because Kibito hadn't recovered all of his ki. Which leads me to believe that Gohan restored his ki since he was just sitting around for some time.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:09 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Both he & Goku had sparks, until Vegeta knocked out Goku. Vegeta briefly had no sparks & Super Saiyan aura, and after eating a senzu, he powered up again into Super Saiyan 2.
It wouldn't appear Vegeta ever left SSj2, the senzu just replenishes his energy. When a transformation takes place it's usually signified by a sound effect.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:11 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:It wouldn't appear Vegeta ever left SSj2, the senzu just replenishes his energy. When a transformation takes place it's usually signified by a sound effect.
No, suddenly, Vegeta's aura took the shape of the Super Saiyan aura, with no sparks. Then he eats a senzu, and powers up again into Super Saiyan 2. His aura when he powers up again has the same shape that Gohan's aura had when he was transforming for the first time into a Super Saiyan 2.

BTW, isn't it a bit strange that the SS2 aura & sparks are always present on SS2 Gohan (Cell Games) & SS2 Goku, who are the only ones with obvious different hairstyles in both forms, but we always have debates about Gohan (Boo arc) & Vegeta, who have almost the same hair in both forms, that they are SS2 without sparks? I think this settles the debate for me.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Fox666 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:10 pm

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:24 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: No, suddenly, Vegeta's aura took the shape of the Super Saiyan aura, with no sparks. Then he eats a senzu, and powers up again into Super Saiyan 2. His aura when he powers up again has the same shape that Gohan's aura had when he was transforming for the first time into a Super Saiyan 2.

BTW, isn't it a bit strange that the SS2 aura & sparks are always present on SS2 Gohan (Cell Games) & SS2 Goku, who are the only ones with obvious different hairstyles in both forms, but we always have debates about Gohan (Boo arc) & Vegeta, who have almost the same hair in both forms, that they are SS2 without sparks? I think this settles the debate for me.
Have you ever thought the reason people say that Super Saiyan 2 always has lightning is because when they look at a Super Saiyan aura that is the very thing their basing it on? It's a catch-22.

If Vegeta isn't explicitly shown to revert or transform states, why would you assume that he did unless you are unable to acknowledge him as a Super Saiyan 2 unless he exhibits that aura trait. In a similar instance, we see him eat the senzu, his energy replenishes in an identical manner, then he transforms into SSJ with the sound effect in that same panel:

Image

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:55 pm

Fox666 wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with a transformation, but is just a way to show power-ups in general, including transformations.
Do you have an example where one displays that aura and is not transforming? Because I've found three cases that the character transforms.
Son_Gohan wrote:Have you ever thought the reason people say that Super Saiyan 2 always has lightning is because when they look at a Super Saiyan aura that is the very thing their basing it on? It's a catch-22.
The thing is, Super Saiyan has two aura types, while Super Saiyan 2 has one with sparks. That's a fact, and even acknowledged by the guidebooks. Toriyama is almost always consistent with the aura shapes.
Son_Gohan wrote:If Vegeta isn't explicitly shown to revert or transform states, why would you assume that he did unless you are unable to acknowledge him as a Super Saiyan 2 unless he exhibits that aura trait.
What I see in those few panels is Super Saiyan Vegeta, not Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta.
Son_Gohan wrote:In a similar instance, we see him eat the senzu, his energy replenishes in an identical manner, then he transforms into SSJ with the sound effect in that same panel
Vegeta has that same aura when he transforms.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Fox666 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:14 pm

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:24 pm

Fox666 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Do you have an example where one displays that aura and is not transforming? Because I've found three cases that the character transforms.
I dunno, right now I can only remember of Goku using the Kaio-ken. But does it really matters? In the page before that Goku and Vegeta were both in the Super Saiyan 2 form, and Goku didn't had any aura at all. Vegeta suddenly hits him in the back, and takes a senzu, I don't think he would have changed form at that moment.
I suppose it only matters for those who believe that sparks are not a trait of Super Saiyan 2, or at least a trait that is always there. But I don't think so.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Fox666 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:29 pm

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:31 pm

Fox666 wrote:It is a trait, but it doesn't work if you try to analyze panel by panel.
Only in some rare cases the sparks are not present.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:50 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Do you have an example where one displays that aura and is not transforming? Because I've found three cases that the character transforms.
Image
Image
Image
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The thing is, Super Saiyan has two aura types, while Super Saiyan 2 has one with sparks. That's a fact, and even acknowledged by the guidebooks. Toriyama is almost always consistent with the aura shapes.
Cell Games era

Image

Fierce shape, sparks

Image


Tame shape, sparks


Image
Image


Tame shape, no sparks


Image

"Fact" debunked.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Fox666 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:56 pm

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Saiga » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:11 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: The thing is, Super Saiyan has two aura types, while Super Saiyan 2 has one with sparks. That's a fact, and even acknowledged by the guidebooks. Toriyama is almost always consistent with the aura shapes.
No. The only guidebooks that acknowledge it are the GT perfect files (who immediately make the mistake of saying no-one in GT used SS2, when Goku did) and this one based on the anime (which labels FPSS as Grade 4, which makes no goddamn sense). Those are both rather dubious sources.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:09 am

Son_Gohan wrote:*pics with characters powering up*
I see then.

Son_Gohan wrote:Cell Games era

Fierce shape, sparks
Toriyama just changed the aura from Cell to Boo arc.

Son_Gohan wrote:
Tame shape, sparks



Tame shape, no sparks
Even if Vegeta really was a Super Saiyan 2 in those few panels, it doesn't mean much. The Super Saiyan 2 aura looks like those two types very rarely, so these are errors, IMO, because they have the shape of the Super Saiyan aura, while every single Super Saiyan form has an aura of its own. The sparks is also a trait that is rarely not there.
Saiga wrote:No. The only guidebooks that acknowledge it are the GT perfect files (who immediately make the mistake of saying no-one in GT used SS2, when Goku did)
Goku appeared as a Super Saiyan 2 for only a few seconds, so it's easy to be missed. Either way, that error doesn't have any relation with what we are talking about, and anyway, does having an error makes the whole thing wrong? By that logic, then the manga is also a dubious source. Heck, the whole franchise is a dubious source.
Saiga wrote:and this one based on the anime (which labels FPSS as Grade 4, which makes no goddamn sense). Those are both rather dubious sources.
In your opinion. So, if you disagree with something, then the whole thing is wrong?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Saiga » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:50 am

That's not what I mean. But it does hurt it's validity on other topics. Besides, it's purely anime based anyway.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!

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