Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Kantico » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:30 pm

Gohan was SSJ2 before it was too mainstream?

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by JP6GAMER » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:41 am

Haha, that was a good one!
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:07 pm

Random thought:

Knowing the timeframe of this, and that "Super Saiyan 2" wasn't even necessarily a concrete thought yet in Toriyama's mind at the time, perhaps this could explain some of the confusion/debate over whether or not Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 versus Dabra? Maybe Toriyama wasn't being clear (and therefore the anime even more/less so) because there wasn't anything to be concrete about...?
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by JeffJarrett » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:10 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Random thought:

Knowing the timeframe of this, and that "Super Saiyan 2" wasn't even necessarily a concrete thought yet in Toriyama's mind at the time, perhaps this could explain some of the confusion/debate over whether or not Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 versus Dabra? Maybe Toriyama wasn't being clear (and therefore the anime even more/less so) because there wasn't anything to be concrete about...?
Great, I agree. It makes sense, Toriyama decided to separate the Super Saiyan transformations in 3 levels only after creating the Super Saiyan 3.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:13 pm

Could be part of it. But there was still a clearly-labeled and visually identifiable difference between regular Super Saiyan and every concrete instance of "beyond Super Saiyan" or "Super-Super Saiyan" and whatever else it had been called up until Goku's demonstration. Toriyama was pretty consistent in making sure we knew when a character was using SSJ2 in every other instance, so it seems unusual for him to allow Gohan Vs Dabra to be so vague.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:15 pm

But were those concrete details only shown after Goku explains the stages? Things like the one hair strand (except in Vegeta's case), the electricity/sparks, etc.? Sure, we get Gohan with sparks, but how about the rest of the characters and their specific traits? I don't remember the manga-specific details all that well right now (and I'm at work, so I can't just grab the manga off the shelf)... but I'm more and more convincing myself, here.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:28 pm

Well, in this case I was actually talking less about the artwork (as consistent as it is beyond the instance in question) and more about statements.

Gohan transforms for Kibito: "Why don't I show you my new super-super form?"
Goku blows up Yakon: "So, Kakarrot has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, too."
Goku Vs Vegeter fills up Boo's power meter: "Crap, they're fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so they're dealing more damage!"
Vegeta Vs Boo: "Vegeta has broken through the Super Saiyan wall."

It's almost like every time someone used Super Saiyan 2, Toriyama went out of his way to actually tell us they were doing so. If Gohan really was meant to be Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra, it's odd that Toriyama would leave it so vague.

Heck, it feels like Toriyama actually had Goku demonstrate and label each form for us so we could tell them apart on our own and he wouldn't have to keep pointing it out!
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:30 pm

Good work with the research. First time I've seen the original labelled somewhere as "Grade One", it was always implicated but I never thought they'd apply this developmental naming scheme to the later two. Especially since distinguishing Grade Four as its own form conflicts with how it wasn't meant to be seen as surpassing Super Saiyan as they originally intended.

It's made me curious to what they call the form on one of the model sheets supplied for the anime, assuming it was made before Goku proclaimed its well-accepted title:

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Insertclevername » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:31 pm

I'd like to add to the OP; although it may not be in the same time frame of release, Legacy of Goku II for the GBA calls Super Saiyan 2 "Super Saiyan Rage". Kind of odd considering it came out in 2003 and Super Saiyan 2 had already been a normal term even in English.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:27 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:It's made me curious to what they call the form on one of the model sheets supplied for the anime, assuming it was made before Goku proclaimed its well-accepted title:
It's just labelled "Super Saiyan Gohan".
Insertclevername wrote:I'd like to add to the OP; although it may not be in the same time frame of release, Legacy of Goku II for the GBA calls Super Saiyan 2 "Super Saiyan Rage". Kind of odd considering it came out in 2003 and Super Saiyan 2 had already been a normal term even in English.
Ah, I remember that; wasn't it "Super Saiyan Rage Mode"? It was rather. I don't think that phrase has been used anywhere else, before or since.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Bussani » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:54 am

VegettoEX wrote:But were those concrete details only shown after Goku explains the stages? Things like the one hair strand (except in Vegeta's case), the electricity/sparks, etc.? Sure, we get Gohan with sparks, but how about the rest of the characters and their specific traits? I don't remember the manga-specific details all that well right now (and I'm at work, so I can't just grab the manga off the shelf)... but I'm more and more convincing myself, here.
Goku and Vegeta had their fight as Super Saiyan 2s before Goku explained all the different levels, but after Gohan's fight with Dabura, and they had the trademark sparks pretty consistently. It's possible that Toriyama came up with true distinctions of the forms after Gohan's fight with Dabura, but before Goku and Vegeta's fight, I suppose, but it's still weird that Gohan would lack the trademark sparks when he'd had them not long before that at the 25th tournament.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:36 am

Bussani wrote:It's possible that Toriyama came up with true distinctions of the forms after Gohan's fight with Dabura
But the Trunks anime comic feature listed the sparks as a trait:
Herms wrote:Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)
An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by tinlunlau » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:38 am

I actually own the exact same ani-manga in Chinese. From what I see, that entire column describing Gohan's Super Saiyan form should be read as "Super Saiyan Stage 5 (Strongest Form)". Believe me, that is exactly what it says in kanji. I can provide a full scan of that page if needed.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Bussani » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:09 am

Zephyr wrote:But the Trunks anime comic feature listed the sparks as a trait
One could argue that Toriyama himself didn't write that, but it does at least show how clear the trait is to people.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Darknat » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:45 am

No one was fighting seriously until Vegeta was controlled by Babidi. Vegeta didn't even transform against Pui Pui, and Goku did transform and show ss2 briefly, but again that was the end of the fight. Gohan was doing the same in the manga, just fighting at the needed level. He was fighting DAbura more or less evenly. He took way too much time as a ss and Vegeta got mad at him for that.

Later against Majin Buu, he was trying to flee, so he didn't transform to ss2.

After that ss2 was not needed by Gohan.

At least that's how I see it.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:20 am

tinlunlau wrote:I actually own the exact same ani-manga in Chinese. From what I see, that entire column describing Gohan's Super Saiyan form should be read as "Super Saiyan Stage 5 (Strongest Form)". Believe me, that is exactly what it says in kanji. I can provide a full scan of that page if needed.
I'm not sure why you would need to -- the Chinese translation is just an adaptation of the original, and Herms noted twice in his post how that's what it says in its original Japanese.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:33 am

Bussani wrote:One could argue that Toriyama himself didn't write that, but it does at least show how clear the trait is to people.
That's true. But it really makes you wonder. If we assume that Toriyama didn't write that, then Toei must have. And if Toei themselves wrote that, why on earth are they so incapable at maintaining consistency with stuff they themselves wrote?

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:31 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Random thought:

Knowing the timeframe of this, and that "Super Saiyan 2" wasn't even necessarily a concrete thought yet in Toriyama's mind at the time, perhaps this could explain some of the confusion/debate over whether or not Gohan was Super Saiyan 2 versus Dabra? Maybe Toriyama wasn't being clear (and therefore the anime even more/less so) because there wasn't anything to be concrete about...?
That's what I've thought for a while. I think Saiga mentioned sometime ago that sparks may've just been an indication of the Super Saiyan using a higher level of power, which would mean that the only real "set" change in appearance for different Super Saiyans would be bigger muscles (SS Grade 1 & 2), spikier hair (SS2, which is hard to tell for Vegeta and Boo arc Gohan anyway, since their hair always stands up anyway), and longer hair (SS3). It also explains why Gokuu and Vegeta didn't seem to say anything about Gohan supposedly not using SS2 against Dabra, since they, of all people, would know the most about the distinctions.

I mean, Toriyama isn't that consistent. He drew sparks in Nappa's aura, for God's sake. And Nappa called Gohan a potential SS before the legend had even come up, but back then, it seemed as if Nappa was just generically describing Gohan as a really strong Saiyan prodigy. And later, in the original manga, Vegetto emits sparks when he first transforms into a Super Saiyan. Maybe it's because he's just that frickin' strong, due to being the Potara fusion of two of the strongest Saiyans in history?
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:05 pm

About sparks not being a trait for Super Saiyan 2:

Let's say that Gohan didn't have sparks against Dabra because he had gotten weaker. Why did he have them when he was just standing against Kibito? He wasn't even at full power back then and had sparks, but he didn't when he was fighting? Besides, there were sparks every other time that it was clearly shown or stated that he was beyond the Super Saiyan. So, for me, the manga screams that the sparks is a trait of Super Saiyan 2 (and 3).
Piccolo Daimao wrote:I mean, Toriyama isn't that consistent. He drew sparks in Nappa's aura, for God's sake.
What's the problem there? Not only the concept of the Super Saiyan wasn't even made back then, but Nappa having lightning could be part of a charging technique. He had the sparks, and then cut Tenshinhan's arm with his fist, and Nappa's arm was glowing. So, it seemed more like he charged all his power, and concentrated the power on his arm, making his fists extremely powerful.
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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Saiga » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:15 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:About sparks not being a trait for Super Saiyan 2:

Let's say that Gohan didn't have sparks against Dabra because he had gotten weaker. Why did he have them when he was just standing against Kibito? He wasn't even at full power back then and had sparks, but he didn't when he was fighting? Besides, there were sparks every other time that it was clearly shown or stated that he was beyond the Super Saiyan. So, for me, the manga screams that the sparks is a trait of Super Saiyan 2 (and 3).
Because that was before his energy was drained? Or, because he hadn't begun fighting and exhausting himself yet (like he had with Dabra?)
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