Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:42 am

Saiga wrote:That's not what I mean. But it does hurt it's validity on other topics. Besides, it's purely anime based anyway.
The Daizenshuu didn't mention the sparks as traits because they didn't describe the appearance of the form (they didn't say anything like "it gives more spiky hair & more wild aura"). The other manga guides that could have said something are the Kanzenban Official Guides & Super Exciting Guides, so I guess Herms, or someone else who owns them could tell us?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:46 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Even if Vegeta really was a Super Saiyan 2 in those few panels, it doesn't mean much. The Super Saiyan 2 aura looks like those two types very rarely, so these are errors, IMO, because they have the shape of the Super Saiyan aura, while every single Super Saiyan form has an aura of its own. The sparks is also a trait that is rarely not there.
If your whole argument was that Super Saiyan 2 is only shown to have a single type of aura, then it clearly means a lot. Since more controversial appearances in the story are dismissed by that very reasoning, when variance has already been demonstrated to exist.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:20 pm

Not in my opinion. If it was a variant aura, it wouldn't be exactly like the Super Saiyan aura.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:44 pm

Well the form is referred to as simply "Super Saiyan" on more than one occasion, so it wouldn't be out of place. Toriyama didn't put great effort to keep the forms separate apparently.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:39 am

He did keep them separate, like he did with Grade 2 and Grade 3. They were all Super Saiyan, but they were called as levels beyond Super Saiyan, each o.ne with its own characteristics and aura shape.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:59 pm

It's not that he didn't depict them separately; just not to this standard of exclusivity you've prescribed to. From what I've seen, he doesn't seem to care as much to apply sparks to a Super Saiyan 2, just for the sake of them being Super Saiyan 2.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:03 pm

OK, so I just carefully observed all the Super Saiyan 2 appearances in the manga, and I concluded that the sparks are indeed a trait of Super Saiyan 2. The sparks are missing extremely rarely, and even when they do, the Super Saiyan 2 still has sparks not only after the panel (rarely panels), but even before the panel. Same for the aura having the SS aura shape. I now agree that Vegeta didn't power down to Super Saiyan when he knocked down Goku, but the different aura spark-less was just an error IMO.
So, I disagree that the sparks are not a trait of Super Saiyan 2, and I disagree that Gohan ever again transformed into a Super Saiyan 2 beyond the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by Son_Gohan » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:16 pm

That's fine, just consider that not everyone will view things the same way, and to be respectful of that.

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Re: Gohan, the Super Saiyan (Grade) 5

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:23 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:That's fine, just consider that not everyone will view things the same way, and to be respectful of that.
I do respect your (and everyone else's) opinion. If you saw anything offensive, then sorry. I just wanted to explain what I believe, and why I don't believe otherwise.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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