Brilliant (but subtle) writing in Dragonball

[Attitudefan]

Even though you could argue the Saiyan arc is one big fight, it's still a well done fight. I have no problem with Dragonball z being a shonen manga when what I want is a shonen manga. It's possible to enjoy different things for different reasons. Sometimes you just want to see a main character punch evil in its stupid face instead of contemplating what it means to be evil.

If anyone thinks Dragon Ball was predictable, I point to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Who thought Goku would've lost?

I never said the Saiyan arc was poor at all. And I agree with you. But I really do think Dragonball as a whole is an excellently executed story. There is always a moment for doubt too. I think, the Piccolo Daimao arc was fantastically written. Who would have thought Krillin would have died or that Goku was taken out for most of the story to build on the other characters. That's a good story

[Marco Polo]

If anyone thinks Dragon Ball was predictable, I point to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Who thought Goku would've lost?

Doesn't Ash Ketchum lose all the time in the Pokémon anime?

[matt0044]

If anyone thinks Dragon Ball was predictable, I point to the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Who thought Goku would've lost?

Doesn't Ash Ketchum lose all the time in the Pokémon anime?

Yeah but this isn't Pokemon. Goku at least made it to the finals, making us think he'd win.

[Marco Polo]

Goku at least made it to the finals, making us think he'd win.

So does Ash Ketchum, in basically all the tournaments he enters. I'm just saying that protagonists never quite reaching the first place is something quite common in shounen stories. If they all became the champions so easily and so fast then the stories would never be as long as they always are.

It's also similar to Seiya never quite becoming the official Sagittarius Gold Saint in Saint Seiya and remaining a low-class Bronze Saint even though we all think he's worth the promotion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Doesn't Ash Ketchum lose all the time in the Pokémon anime?

Yeah, but up until that point, Goku was portrayed as an amazing fighter, who couldn't loose to anyone. Ash in Pokemon (from what I recall from 10 years ago ) wasn't portrayed as a guy who could easily defeat anyone.

Plus, Dragon Ball is older than Pokemon.

[ABED]

Goku losing to his master so he doesn't get cocky makes a lot of sense, and it's never set up for Goku to be the victor. However, the 22nd tournament is very different. Roshi leaves the ring satisfied that his students won't rest on their butts, and that the next generation will more than fill the void of great fighters. Tenshinhan is set up as a nasty bastard. Even though Tenshinhan begins his turn to the light, it still seemed innevitable that Goku would defeat Tenshinhan. I was very surprised when I read that Tenshinhan won by a hair's breadth.

[CaBrPi]

There's also the fact that the Pokémon anime is an advertisement for the games. The very nature of the show dictates that Ash cannot win, same as how nobody could die in the original Transformers cartoon (at first anyway ).

Dragon Ball had no such restriction.

[matt0044]

Goku at least made it to the finals, making us think he'd win.

So does Ash Ketchum, in basically all the tournaments he enters.

He doesn't even make it to the finals of any league. Semi in Sinnoh maybe but finals, nope.

[NitroEX]

Goku at least made it to the finals, making us think he'd win.

So does Ash Ketchum, in basically all the tournaments he enters.

He doesn't even make it to the finals of any league. Semi in Sinnoh maybe but finals, nope.

Well... there was that one time in the Orange league.

[matt0044]

So does Ash Ketchum, in basically all the tournaments he enters.

He doesn't even make it to the finals of any league. Semi in Sinnoh maybe but finals, nope.

Well... there was that one time in the Orange league.

Filler. That is, no basis in any game. Apparently it's free game if Ash beats a league not from any game.

Yeah, I don't get it either.

[Storm]

I've been thinking lately about the theme in Dragon Ball about compassion for your enemies. You start off with Goku befriending a desert bandit who wanted to kill him and take his capsules, then Ten/Chaotzu who are assassins-in-training and associated with Goku's biggest foe up to that point, Piccolo who is the son of a demon, and so on. Krillin is an exception, I suppose, being rude and underhanded, but never outright malicious and becomes chummy pretty quickly with Goku (which speaks of their friendship).

Vegeta is sort of the final push in this theme, and he takes the longest to become a "good guy;" almost all of Z, at that. This is because he was by far the most deranged and evil of all of the enemies-turned-allies of Goku. We also see this followed up in the Freeza saga with someone who's somehow worse than Vegeta, has killed Goku's best friend, but is still spared...and he uses the good will immediately to attempt to kill Goku in a last ditch effort. This hammers the idea in that some people, no matter how kind and respectful you are to them, cannot be changed.

[worldmonsters]

I've been thinking lately about the theme in Dragon Ball about compassion for your enemies. You start off with Goku befriending a desert bandit who wanted to kill him and take his capsules, then Ten/Chaotzu who are assassins-in-training and associated with Goku's biggest foe up to that point, Piccolo who is the son of a demon, and so on. Krillin is an exception, I suppose, being rude and underhanded, but never outright malicious and becomes chummy pretty quickly with Goku (which speaks of their friendship).

Vegeta is sort of the final push in this theme, and he takes the longest to become a "good guy;" almost all of Z, at that. This is because he was by far the most deranged and evil of all of the enemies-turned-allies of Goku. We also see this followed up in the Freeza saga with someone who's somehow worse than Vegeta, has killed Goku's best friend, but is still spared...and he uses the good will immediately to attempt to kill Goku in a last ditch effort. This hammers the idea in that some people, no matter how kind and respectful you are to them, cannot be changed.

Vegeta isn't the final push at all though Well, he does take the longest if you consider that he only REALLY turned good when he killed himself to save everyone from Majin Buu. But there are some others. Android 16, Android 18, Majin Buu, Babidi changes sides and Dabura does too, but those two are filler I believe :p, Kid Buu is reincarnated to become Uub, so that kind of counts. I might have missed a few :p

[Marco Polo]

Many of Goku's enemies turn good actually, from Oolong all the way to Kid Buu, apart from some secondary villains and henchmen (and Freeza and Cell, most notably). I think the GT writers even remembered about that, although very late into their story, when they came up with Nuova Shenron.

Virtually all of the Z Warriors used to be bad guys, apart from Gohan, Goten, and Trunks.

[Storm]

Vegeta isn't the final push at all though Well, he does take the longest if you consider that he only REALLY turned good when he killed himself to save everyone from Majin Buu. But there are some others. Android 16, Android 18, Majin Buu, Babidi changes sides and Dabura does too, but those two are filler I believe :p, Kid Buu is reincarnated to become Uub, so that kind of counts. I might have missed a few :p

He's basically the token evil teammate for all of Androids/Cell, then in Buu he lets himself get taken over by Babidi's magic, kills a bunch of innocent people, and fights Goku to satisfy a decade long bloodlust. I don't think he really becomes a true good guy until his halo disappears. Sure, after him you had characters like 16 (who was never really very evil to begin with), 18 (who was at worst just a neutral character who didn't mind if Goku died), but Majin Buu turning good happens much quicker and doesn't span an entire character arc (and show!) like Vegeta, and Babidi and Dabura are as you said filler (and even Babidi just wanted Goku to kill Buu, he didn't care about it being the right thing to do). Uub being Kid Buu doesn't really count considering that he never even knew who he was until he met Goku.

Plus, of all of Goku's frenemies, Vegeta is arguably the most iconic as the "rival" of the series. Pretty much everyone else drops their grudge against Goku the moment they start allying with him, barring maybe Piccolo, who relishes the moment to kill Goku along with Radditz, albeit not finding it to be exactly what he wanted. It isn't until Goku fights Kid Buu that Vegeta truly lets it go.

[matt0044]

Raditz speaking of the Saiyans and how the enslave planets for cash (and the thrill of conquest) yet leaving out Freeza and other aliens can be chalked up to Toriyama's willy way of writing but Saiyans are known for their pride so Raditz trying to glorify Saiyans doesn't seem like a stretch. And if he disliked Freeza as much as Vegeta and Nappa did, I'm sure that's a possibility too.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I always thought the first two arcs of DBZ had some pretty amazing writing in them: Goku being an alien, Goku's dad, PIccolo's home planet, Freeza etc. After that, it gets rather depressing in comparison: time travel, alternate timelines, a gazillion androids, everyone being able to turn Super Saiyan, a fat pink demon sealed away in the centre of the earth etc.

[Kid Buu]

Filler. That is, no basis in any game. Apparently it's free game if Ash beats a league not from any game.

Yeah, I don't get it either.

I know it has no connection to the game, but is Orange Islands filler? You can't exactly skip it because its where Ash gets Lapras, Snorlax, & tames Charizard. It's not like Bulma and the Crab where you can skip it and wont miss any of the plot.

[Saiga]

It's arguably the season with the lowest percentage of filler episodes in it. The Sinnoh League is the only one that can contest with that. And I wouldn't call it filler because it wasn't based on the games, because the anime does things very differently from the games in the first place. It also seems to at least be inspired by the Elite Four concept, with Drake being directly based on Lance, and all the hall of fame stuff.

[Bardock the Mexican]

The 1st episode of the Z portion of Dragonball was brilliantly written and I have never really thought about it until now. The story comes together with the origin story of Goku and his alter ego, Kakarot. All of Goku's friends are there to have a party, I guess to celebrate after not seeing each other in a while. Goku's origins are revisited: his friendly rival with Krillin, his old master Kame-Senin, and his companion Bulma are there to take center stage within the first chapters much like it did in Dragonball. The only one missing is Yamcha but he is mentioned non-the-less for a gag (as his character becomes within the fandom, which is a little bit of foreshadowing). Kakarot's origins are visited as well to contrast Goku's happy go lucky story.
So, the contrast of bringing Goku's two origins stories contrast each other in a very compelling narrative. The clash of Raditz's personae and Goku's friends is an insightful way to hook an audience. I think the contrast was so subtle but very important to the impact the first chapters of Z really had!

I'm probably going to get a lot of hate with this, but I don't care. It's my opinion and all, so feel free to disagree with me on any point.

I think Dragonball Z shouldn't have ever seen the light of day. Why? My reason of course is that it ended up going in the wrong direction from the start. It had to give a reason to why Gokuu had always been so "strange" when it could have left well enough alone. Who cares why he is so strong? Why did he have to be an a Superman ripoff? He could have been a happy go lucky kid who had a fantasticly weird childhood and grew up to marry his sweetheart. THAT is why Dragonball is the best and light years ahead of Dragonball "Zeta" is.

If there was no Dragonball "Zeta" then there would be no Bardock. I'm fine with that. I would just go with some other name, like Doctor Slump or something. I'm not that attached to the character myself.

[Ringworm128]

I've always liked the idea that a guy on YT pointed out that Cell is pretty much the anti-Goku. He has Goku's DNA yet he's the complete opposite of Goku in both personality and appearance. So when Gohan fights Cell in a sense he's going up against an evil version of his father.