Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[Kingdom Heartless]

While I try to avoid going off topic, I have to say that the last Michael Bay movie I watched was Transformers 2, which was one of the most misogynistic films I've ever seen. Even Rainn freaking Wilson had girls drooling over him in that movie. Every female was either a sex symbol, obnoxious, or mildly mentally disabled, some being more than one of the three.

[Hades]

Because as we know, there is absolutely no organized crime, prostitution, or restriction of reproductive rights in these glorious United States.

Do you actually have a point, because you seem to keep saying that First World citizens cannot talk about their own problems.

Sigh, could all this posturing and competition please just stop?

No, because mealy-mouthed "everywun has problemssss" horseshit is completely worthless. It does not inspire people to FIX those problems, because the tendency of humanity is to go "welp, as long as everybody else suffers too, it's fine".

Slavery was not ended by mewling about how bad Northern factory workers had it.

Factory conditions were not improved by constantly bringing up how bad the Chinese railroad laborers had it.

Women did not gain the right to vote by being sure to include messages about how rough it was for the men too in every speech so as to be "fair".

1) Did you just seriously compare the Bechdel Test to the Abolitionist movement?
2) In the US, the government actively drops the hammer on the sort of organised crime rings that run rampant in Russia and Eastern Europe instead of said crime rings being the government.
3) Meanwhile, any attempt by the GOP to bring about El Salvador's abortion laws is largely DOA.
4) First World Problems are TRIVIAL in the grand scheme of things.

[VyeRo]

While I agree that the fact this became a discussion about who has it worse was very disheartening to me, you have to realize that the entire rest of your post does exactly that in spades. Sigh, could all this posturing and competition please just stop?

I'm not trying to make men compete against the women for who has it worse, however this thread was initially about the Bechdel test. About women in media and how they're represented and how their characters are written. It annoyed me to see that some users were dismissing it with "What about the men?" and why it's not such a big deal if women are not represented in movies. So a very interesting topic about women derailed into a topic about....men...and other stuff... I agree with Rocketman on that it's impossible to talk about feminism on this forum before the thread is derailed into something else. Even more, I've seen some users reply in a really condescending manner so I always try to avoid such topics because I don't want to get all angry and risk being banned.
And my post was directly a reply to "men experience the same things!" Yeah, they do, however women experience it way more (and that's the truth, there's really no competition tbh) and that was initially what this topic was about! If you're so concerned about male objectification, by all means make another thread or talk about how you can reduce objectification altogether. I just felt this thread wasn't the right place to discuss men and their plights, that's all.

@ Hades:

While I agree that first-world countries have it better than anybody else in the world, there's still MUCH to improve. Uncontrolled prostitution (because I actually live in a country where's it's legal), human trafficking, no control over reproduction rights etc also happen in these so-called developed countries. It's just not very visible to the public. And it's very telling that even in first-world countries, women are still not equally represented in movies/academic fields/etc basically anywhere. Women still get paid less for the same jobs. Yeah it's a first-world problem but it's one that needs to change because we're not in the 50s anymore. Seriously, when even first-world countries can't do it right what hope do less-developed countries have? First-world problems are NOT trivial, because in order to change things for the better you have to start on a smaller scale. If women are not treated like equals to men in your "progressive" country, why the fuck should people care about the treatment of women in India?

Things like the Bechdel test may seem unimportant to you in the grand scheme of things, but even the fact that someone was forced to make a test like that should mean something. It's just one other thing we can use to measure how women are treated on top of all the other BS.

[ABED]

Women still get paid less for the same jobs.

Not true on the individual level. It's only when you deal with broad aggregates that you see that "problem". Why would people who are trying to make money pay someone more to do the same job? They are either misogynist or trying to make a profit.

How about instead of "representing" women, blacks, etc. in media, we just write good characters?

Can we drop this thread? Toriyama isn't great at writing female characters. It's a weakness, but the stories are still good. Not everyone has the ability to write the opposite sex well. That's why we have Joss Whedon and James Cameron (Avatar notwithstanding)

[RandomGuy96]

lol@ Joss Whedon writing females well.

[ABED]

lol@ Joss Whedon writing females well.

Millions feel differently. While you feel differently, I'm baffled that you don't think there's one in his entire career as a writer that wasn't a well written character. You could've made your point in a far less obnoxious way. Instead of adding something of substance to the conversation, you used a schoolyard insult.

[RocktheDragon]

lol@ Joss Whedon writing females well.

Millions feel differently. While you feel differently, I'm baffled that you don't think there's one in his entire career as a writer that wasn't a well written character. You could've made your point in a far less obnoxious way. Instead of adding something of substance to the conversation, you used a schoolyard insult.

I would agree that for the most part Joss Whedon writes female roles very well. The obnoxious comment seems out of place and unnecessary I do agree.

Back on topic I want to say that such a test merely serves to show the respective strengths and weaknesses of the movie, video game, tv series, etc being tested. It doesn't make DB inherently bad or any worse for not having well written females or being (arguably) misogynistic at times.

[Hades]

@ Hades:

While I agree that first-world countries have it better than anybody else in the world, there's still MUCH to improve. Uncontrolled prostitution (because I actually live in a country where's it's legal), human trafficking, no control over reproduction rights etc also happen in these so-called developed countries. It's just not very visible to the public. And it's very telling that even in first-world countries, women are still not equally represented in movies/academic fields/etc basically anywhere. Women still get paid less for the same jobs. Yeah it's a first-world problem but it's one that needs to change because we're not in the 50s anymore. Seriously, when even first-world countries can't do it right what hope do less-developed countries have? First-world problems are NOT trivial, because in order to change things for the better you have to start on a smaller scale. If women are not treated like equals to men in your "progressive" country, why the fuck should people care about the treatment of women in India?

Things like the Bechdel test may seem unimportant to you in the grand scheme of things, but even the fact that someone was forced to make a test like that should mean something. It's just one other thing we can use to measure how women are treated on top of all the other BS.

1) How the hell does BS like the Bechdel Test help women who are being forcibly trafficked in Romania? Besides, western governments, especially the United States, go BERSERK if sex trafficking rings are active, especially if behave like they do in Eastern Europe. And sentences handed down for human trafficking are astronomical.
2) Any woman who thinks they have it bad in the first world because of "lack of equal representation" should spend a month in the slums of Moscow. I'm sure the young Russian women being forced into prostitution to sustain their heroin habits (often imposed on them by their "employers") and living with a nonzero risk of contracting AIDS will be so sympathetic to them.
3) If you seriously think women have zero control over their reproductive rights in the first world, then i'm sure they'd have a fit at Nicaragua's abortion laws.
4) People, especially women who just happen to be white and middle class or above, have ZERO idea of how good they have it in most circumstances.

[Kid Buu]

To be honest I just think Toriyama doesn't really handle most of his characters well.

But hey I wont take offense to it. I mean Stanley Kubrick is my favourite director and I think his films are misogynist as hell.

[theawesomepossum777]

This has probably become the most off-topic thread in Kanzenshuu right now. Heck, I'm pretty sure DB passes the Bechdel test anyway, so I don't see how it got so off-topic. I mean Chi-chi and Videl had a very normal conversation until Chichi suddenly says that Gohan should marry her.

[Rocketman]

How about instead of "representing" women, blacks, etc. in media, we just write good characters?

Because "just good characters" mysteriously defaults to being straight white men.

[ABED]

How about instead of "representing" women, blacks, etc. in media, we just write good characters?

Because "just good characters" mysteriously defaults to being straight white men.

So now we should write to fill a quota and write "strong female characters" instead of just good characters. Gotcha.

[Hades]

How about instead of "representing" women, blacks, etc. in media, we just write good characters?

Because "just good characters" mysteriously defaults to being straight white men.

I'm sure that is a problem on par with women getting acid thrown at their faces for spurning men like in Pakistan.

[RandomGuy96]

Who said that it was?

[Rocketman]

So now we should write to fill a quota

Sure, why not?

[Kingdom Heartless]

....this just seems to be going around in circles now.

[UltimateHammerBro]

This started as a serious, interesting topic to talk about in a DB forum, but all I can read now is "yada yada yada"

[Hades]

So now we should write to fill a quota

Sure, why not?

Quanity =/= Quality.

[alakazam^]

How about instead of "representing" women, blacks, etc. in media, we just write good characters?

Because "just good characters" mysteriously defaults to being straight white men.

Not in Japan.

I feel this conversation is going around in circles because we're ignoring the individuality of each person. Dragon Ball passes the Bechdel test (which is nice for a 80's Japan manga) but if Toriyama wants to write about a super-heroine getting raped and becoming a prostitute - which he did - why shouldn't he be able to? Why shouldn't a female mangaka write a story about girls dreaming about romance and the perfect guy? It all boils down to how one person views both genders and the type of story they want to create.

If Toriyama doesn't feel his female characters in Dragon Ball are warranted a more active role (which, considering he's a man that said he wanted to have a daughter to be able to spy on her taking a bath, they are active and predominant enough), then they aren't. I think it's stupid to create characters just to fill a quota, that makes them feel forced and fake. Whites produce entertainment mostly for whites, asians for asians and blacks for blacks. Expecting otherwise and complaining about it seems a waste of time and not a logical thing to do.

And I'm sorry but "what about the men?" is a valid complaint and one I agree with. It might not be entirely on-topic but if you expand the discussion from Bechdel test and Dragon Ball to use real life examples and repercussions, then it's relevant. Not all women care about how they are portrayed in media (or help to end that portrayal in society) and, sure as hell, don't bat an eye when taking advantage of the gender inequality.

[UltimateHammerBro]

All of your post

Ah, voice of reason.