Out of Character Moments in the series

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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:06 pm

penguintruth wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:
penguintruth wrote:As I've proven again and again, the people who think Gohan is OoC in the Cell Games have no ground to stand on whatsoever.

The lack of reading comprehension in this thread is staggering.
I know this will probably sound ironic coming from me, but how about you actually prove to us how Gohan wasn't OOC instead of just repeatedly saying we have poor reading comprehension skills?
By my extensive reasoning and logical arguments that have dismantled your misreading of the entire Cell Games portion of the story completely.

It's all in page 2 of this thread. You had nothing. You continue to have nothing. You're embarrassing yourself with your lack of even the simplest reasoning skills.

You keep trotting out this same old argument in thread after thread in these forums, and it's just more waving your arms around looking for attention from somebody who might agree. Sad, really.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with him, but he makes a good point about 16.
The sad thing is that this sums up the entire Cyborg/Cell saga.
Saying stuff like this is why I can't believe it. Yet another baseless bash.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by thatdbzguy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:08 pm

penguintruth wrote: By my extensive reasoning and logical arguments
Oh, you mean the ones that were just destroyed previously?
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by penguintruth » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:10 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
penguintruth wrote: By my extensive reasoning and logical arguments
Oh, you mean the ones that were just destroyed previously?
Destroyed? By who? You?

Ahahahaha, please. You continue to humiliate yourself. Maybe this sort of thing works out in, say, the Pojo forums, but here, it's worthless.

Where's your arguments? Where's your evidence? You haven't any. You have the same, weak, sad suppositions unsupported by any portion of the manga.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:13 pm

penguintruth wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:
penguintruth wrote: By my extensive reasoning and logical arguments
Oh, you mean the ones that were just destroyed previously?
Destroyed? By who? You?

Ahahahaha, please. You continue to humiliate yourself. Maybe this sort of thing works out in, say, the Pojo forums, but here, it's worthless.

Where's your arguments? Where's your evidence? You haven't any. You have the same, weak, sad suppositions unsupported by any portion of the manga.
He made a good point that Gohan never feared hurting others with his power in other parts of the story. Are you outright dismissing his points because you don't want to admit that in at least one instance he could be right?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by penguintruth » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:17 pm

ABED wrote:Gohan never feared hurting others with his power in other parts of the story.
Gohan always reacted in the moment before, in the story. When enraged, he didn't have time to consider if was going to hurt others with his power. Here, in the Cell Games, there was an expectation to be met, and he couldn't meet it.

The whole point is that he can't just turn it off and on the way his father or Vegeta can. Goku misjudged this ability to do so.

I mean, FFS, is it that difficult to figure that out? This isn't Shakespeare, it's Dragon Ball. This thread is little more than YT comments.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:19 pm

penguintruth wrote:
ABED wrote:Gohan never feared hurting others with his power in other parts of the story.
Gohan always reacted in the moment before, in the story. When enraged, he didn't have time to consider if was going to hurt others with his power. Here, in the Cell Games, there was an expectation to be met, and he couldn't meet it.

The whole point is that he can't just turn it off and on the way his father or Vegeta can. Goku misjudged this ability to do so.

I mean, FFS, is it that difficult to figure that out? This isn't Shakespeare, it's Dragon Ball.
That's a really weak excuse for something that's never been mentioned before, it wasn't even subtext. It's a reach is what it is.

Again, the issue isn't whether it's out of character for Gohan to be able to explode on his own. The issue is with his unwillingness to fight.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by thatdbzguy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:22 pm

penguintruth wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:
penguintruth wrote: By my extensive reasoning and logical arguments
Oh, you mean the ones that were just destroyed previously?
Destroyed? By who? You?
By ABED, by rereboy, and probably by some other members I'm forgetting at the moment.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by Zephyr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:25 pm

ABED wrote:
So he didn't snap when people weren't dying, and did snap when someone did die? Seems reasonable.
But not someone he had a connection to, and the piece of advice that he got was something Gohan had to already know by that point. It was forced drama.
The Cell Jr.s didn't kill anyone. Cell killed #16 right before Gohan's eyes. Connection to the robot or not, there was still a distinct difference in life being taken (let's not start talking about what makes something "alive"). Plus, the Cell Jr.s were still making him angry, just not enough to snap (because he was thinking too much about it instead of just letting his emotions take over). #16 is was the final catalyst. It was #16 being killed after watching his friends get beaten up.

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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by penguintruth » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:29 pm

ABED wrote:The issue is with his unwillingness to fight.
He's willing to fight, but at the moment, is unable to.

Apparently, you don't understand emotions. At all.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:30 pm

penguintruth wrote:
ABED wrote:The issue is with his unwillingness to fight.
He's willing to fight, but at the moment, is unable to.

Apparently, you don't understand emotions. At all.
Apparently your reading comprehension skills aren't much better than those you criticize, I mean at the start of the battle when he tells Cell that he doesn't want to fight.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by penguintruth » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:31 pm

ABED wrote:
penguintruth wrote:
ABED wrote:The issue is with his unwillingness to fight.
He's willing to fight, but at the moment, is unable to.

Apparently, you don't understand emotions. At all.
Apparently your reading comprehension skills aren't much better than those you criticize, I mean at the start of the battle when he tells Cell that he doesn't want to fight.
Willingness and desire are not the same thing. AT ALL.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:34 pm

Zephyr wrote:
ABED wrote:
So he didn't snap when people weren't dying, and did snap when someone did die? Seems reasonable.
But not someone he had a connection to, and the piece of advice that he got was something Gohan had to already know by that point. It was forced drama.
The Cell Jr.s didn't kill anyone. Cell killed #16 right before Gohan's eyes. Connection to the robot or not, there was still a distinct difference in life being taken (let's not start talking about what makes something "alive"). Plus, the Cell Jr.s were still making him angry, just not enough to snap (because he was thinking too much about it instead of just letting his emotions take over). #16 is was the final catalyst. It was #16 being killed after watching his friends get beaten up.

@penguintruth
@thatdbzguy
So what are you guys adding to the actual discussion?
The straw that broke the camel's back argument falls flat to me, Toriyama makes a point of 16's speech, like it's the one final thing Gohan had to hear in order to let it all go. Gohan has to know this implicitly. That's why it feels forced to me. Plus, it's far stronger if the death had been someone like Trunks - it happens anyway.
Willingness and desire are not the same thing. AT ALL.
Then why does Gohan bring it up? What's the point? It adds nothing. He knows the kind of person Cell is, and what changed since say the beginning of the arc? I didn't argue that Gohan was unwilling to fight.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by Kaboom » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:40 pm

I think we really need to examine and check some of our attitudes in this thread. Especially you, Penguintruth. Saying things like -
Penguintruth wrote:Ahahahaha, please. You continue to humiliate yourself.
- Is not and has NEVER been an acceptable way to address your peers in this community, regardless of whether you think they deserve your respect or not, or how much of a constant Debbie Downer they may be in practically every thread they enter (*cough cough*). The same applies to everyone else. Discuss things civilly and pleasantly here, or eventually you'll find yourself having lost the ability to discuss things here at all.



As far as the topic of discussion goes, while I agree that Gohan's behavior in the Cell Games was odd, I don't believe it was necessarily out of character, or at least isn't understandable. Like others have pointed out, the big difference between Gohan's circumstances here and in other past instances is that he was being put on the spot. When he acts in battle, it's usually of his own volition or in the heat of the moment. But in this case, Goku has pretty much tossed Gohan out there and said, "okay Gohan, we're all depending on you, go kill Cell." Gohan figures out that Goku wants him to power up by getting mad, but that's not really the kind of thing you can do at will. It took Cell abusing everyone and 16's words of encouragment for it to happen.

And you know what? It's not the only time something like that has happened. When Gohan is put forth and expected to fight by someone else, he tends to fail in the clutch. It happened before with Piccolo and Kuririn's plan against Nappa, and it happened later when Goku, again, encouraged Gohan to get mad and defeat Dabra.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by Zephyr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:41 pm

ABED wrote:The straw that broke the camel's back argument falls flat to me, Toriyama makes a point of 16's speech, like it's the one final thing Gohan had to hear in order to let it all go. Gohan has to know this implicitly. That's why it feels forced to me.
I'd be inclined to agree that it was the speech that was meant to make him snap, if it wasn't for his head being crushed right before Gohan's eyes being the final thing before said snapping occurs. As for him knowing the point of the speech implicitly already, being reminded that's it's okay to just fight helped clear his incredibly distracted mind.

And yeah, Trunks would have had more impact, but it wasn't necessary.
Last edited by Zephyr on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:43 pm

Zephyr wrote:
ABED wrote:The straw that broke the camel's back argument falls flat to me, Toriyama makes a point of 16's speech, like it's the one final thing Gohan had to hear in order to let it all go. Gohan has to know this implicitly. That's why it feels forced to me.
I'd be inclined to agree that it was the speech that was meant to make him snap, if it wasn't for his head being crushed right before Gohan's eyes being the final thing before said snapping occurs.

And yeah, Trunks would have had more impact, but it wasn't necessary.
I didn't mean that the speech made him snap, just that he had to hear it.

I do think it was necessary for Gohan to see someone close to him hurt instead of a complete non-entity to him.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by Zephyr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:51 pm

ABED wrote:I didn't mean that the speech made him snap, just that he had to hear it.

I do think it was necessary for Gohan to see someone close to him hurt instead of a complete non-entity to him.
Fair enough. Being reminded that's it's okay to just fight, by someone else who doesn't absolutely revel in fighting, helped clear his incredibly distracted mind.

I think all that was necessary was to see someone die brutally a couple feet in front of him.

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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:53 pm

Zephyr wrote:
ABED wrote:I didn't mean that the speech made him snap, just that he had to hear it.

I do think it was necessary for Gohan to see someone close to him hurt instead of a complete non-entity to him.
Fair enough. Being reminded that's it's okay to just fight, by someone else who doesn't absolutely revel in fighting, helped clear his incredibly distracted mind.

I think all that was necessary was to see someone die brutally a couple feet in front of him.
Did he really need to be reminded, was that an internal struggle he was dealing with?

I do agree on your last point, just not who was the victim.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:54 pm

Zephyr wrote:
ABED wrote:I didn't mean that the speech made him snap, just that he had to hear it.

I do think it was necessary for Gohan to see someone close to him hurt instead of a complete non-entity to him.
Fair enough. Being reminded that's it's okay to just fight, by someone else who doesn't absolutely revel in fighting, helped clear his incredibly distracted mind.

I think all that was necessary was to see someone die brutally a couple feet in front of him.
So he cares more about a piece of machinery being broken (a piece of machinery that was going to kill his dad anyway) than his friends and family getting beaten to death? It's not like he ever required an actual 'death' to get a rage boost before. Nor does he even need one in that moment.

As has been pointed out, if THIS was Gohan's character, then the whole Namek arc would've been a bust, since Freeza would have killed Piccolo, because Gohan would be sitting on the sidelines trembling like a wuss and refusing to fight.
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He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:56 pm

It's not a rage boost. Rage boosts are temporary.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Out of Character Moments in the series

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:00 pm

ABED wrote:It's not a rage boost. Rage boosts are temporary.
He got a rage boost on top of his SS2 transformation. No, they don't have to be split-second, and officially, they aren't. But what I was saying that he didn't need any rage (i.e. no power boost or transformation) at the moment. He was already stronger than everyone else, even Cell before Cell did his huge power up, and easily could've crushed the Juniors.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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