Did DBZ Overuse The "Idiot Ball" Trope?

[thatdbzguy]

For those who don't know, the Idiot Ball trope basically refers to a character acting extremely stupid for little to no good reason. Examples of this include 18 not running from Cell despite 16's urges, Freeza letting Dende fly past him "just because", Vegeta going to sleep and letting the thought of Gohan and the others stealing the Dragon Balls to make their own wishes completely slip his mind, Vegeta trying to pull Gohan's tail off instead of just chopping or blasting it, etc. Basically, there's a lot.

Do you think DBZ overused this trope? IMO, it really did, to the point where the story heavily relied on it in order to get the plot going in a specific direction.

[The Tori-bot]

IMO, it really did

No kidding.

It definitely used it. Quite a few major plot points depend on the characters making moronic decisions e.g. not hunting down Dr Gero as Bulma suggested, Vegeta letting Cell become complete (surprised those weren't mentioned in the OP). On the other hand, smarter characters usually did point out how stupid these things were. Toriyama will write himself into a corner and need someone to be really dumb to advance the story, but he'll at least have someone act as a surrogate for the discerning reader to acknowledge that yes, Character X is being dumb as shit, but the arc's not over yet, so shut up and enjoy the fighting.

[Valerius Dover]

Well, Vegeta's cases are more of him being cocky and arrogant. He's all like "They wouldn't dare double cross me". Same thing occurs when he lets Cell go Perfect. I do have to note another Idiot Ball thing I noticed, though. Why do they never split the Senzu Beans after the Vegeta Saga?

[TheGmGoken]

Well, Vegeta's cases are more of him being cocky and arrogant. He's all like "They wouldn't dare double cross me". Same thing occurs when he lets Cell go Perfect. I do have to note another Idiot Ball thing I noticed, though. Why do they never split the Senzu Beans after the Vegeta Saga?

It doesn't recover it 100% most likely only 50% which isn't very helpful honestly.

[Looneygamemaster]

There's nothing wrong with using this plot device when you can justify it. And Dragon Ball's usually good at doing so. Not always, but usually.

Though I wish he'd been punished a bit more for it, Goku having Gohan fight Cell is a really good example. After Piccolo yells at him, you can see him really understand for the first time how different his son is from him, and what that oversight has done. Without any dialogue I might add, even in the English dub.

[Valerius Dover]

There's nothing wrong with using this plot device when you can justify it. And Dragon Ball's usually good at doing so. Not always, but usually.

Though I wish he'd been punished a bit more for it, Goku having Gohan fight Cell is a really good example. After Piccolo yells at him, you can see him really understand for the first time how different his son is from him, and what that oversight has done. Without any dialogue I might add, even in the English dub.

Oh, yeah, that scene was perfect. They could've added a "What've I done?" monologue, but they knew it was effective enough just showing his reaction. Love that scene.

[KentalSSJ6]

The idiot ball really started rolling in the Cell saga.

[ParkerAL]

Do you think DBZ overused this trope? IMO, it really did, to the point where the story heavily relied on it in order to get the plot going in a specific direction.

Here's a drinking game that will kill your liver on this forum: take a shot whenever thatdbzguy holds a magnifying glass up to a specific aspect of dbz in order to belittle a show we supposedly likes.

No, I don't think Toriyama overused the "Idiot Ball" trope, especially since there's often a valid reason for why certain characters do the "dumb" things they do.

For those who don't know, the Idiot Ball trope basically refers to a character acting extremely stupid for little to no good reason. Examples of this include 18 not running from Cell despite 16's urges, Freeza letting Dende fly past him "just because", Vegeta going to sleep and letting the thought of Gohan and the others stealing the Dragon Balls to make their own wishes completely slip his mind, Vegeta trying to pull Gohan's tail off instead of just chopping or blasting it, etc. Basically, there's a lot.

Android 18 was caught up in the emotion of the moment. Her fight or flight instincts kicked in and she chose to fight. Considering Cell's superior strength and speed, fleeing from him probably wouldn't have done much good anyway. If she couldn't beat him in a fight, she probably couldn't outrun him either.

Freeza let Dende fly by because, as the all-powerful ruler of the universe, why should he have cared about a "Namekian brat" who he had no reason to think could cause him trouble after he had wiped out the rest of Namek's denizens so easily.

When Vegeta went to sleep he wasn't expecting Krillin to return as fast as he did, if I recall correctly, and, perhaps a little naively, expected the Earthlings to go along with his plan to defeat Freeza out of necessity.

He didn't chop or blast Gohan's tail off because he didn't have time to think clearly, and wasn't exactly in a completely sound state of mind after all the battle damage he had taken.

Honestly, most cases of stupidity in Dragon Ball Z only look like that because we, as the audience, have 20/20 foresight, unlike the characters living in the moment of the show's plot. I honestly think their mistakes make the show more relatable and realistic anyway. Just look at all the dumb things people do in the real world. Human history is dominated by one poorly conceived idea leading directly into the next. Why should fictional works be any different?

[mAcChaos]

Freeza letting Dende fly past him "just because",

As far as Freeza knew he was just some random Namekian kid. Like he said, "no need to kill every little thing." As far as he knew he was about to get his wish and was in a good mood. Not stupid at all.

Honestly, most cases of stupidity in Dragon Ball Z only look like that because we, as the audience, have 20/20 foresight, unlike the characters living in the moment of the show's plot. I honestly think their mistakes make the show more relatable and realistic anyway. Just look at all the dumb things people do in the real world. Human history is dominated by one poorly conceived idea leading directly into the next. Why should fictional works be any different?

It's because people treat the battles like a game of chess run by purely utilitarian reasoning rather than characters with personalities.

[RocktheDragon]

For those who don't know, the Idiot Ball trope basically refers to a character acting extremely stupid for little to no good reason. Examples of this include 18 not running from Cell despite 16's urges, Freeza letting Dende fly past him "just because", Vegeta going to sleep and letting the thought of Gohan and the others stealing the Dragon Balls to make their own wishes completely slip his mind, Vegeta trying to pull Gohan's tail off instead of just chopping or blasting it, etc. Basically, there's a lot.

Do you think DBZ overused this trope? IMO, it really did, to the point where the story heavily relied on it in order to get the plot going in a specific direction.

1) 18 chose to stay and fight, she did not want to leave 16 behind. She wasn't the kind of character to leave behind a close ally.

2) The line speaks for itself in the anime, something along the lines of "I don't need to kill every little thing", and helped demonstrate Freeza's overconfidence and ego.

3) Vegeta going to sleep never seemed like a dumb move to me. In his eyes the earthlings were never going to double cross him, and the guy had gone through a lot (fights, crazy situations).

4) At that time, Vegeta was weakened and probably didn't have the power to blast it, pulling it was probably the easiest way for him to take the tail off. Even in the manga he struggles to pull it off, because of his weakened state.

[Kid Buu]

Vegeta should have just cut Oozaru Gohan in half instead of his tail.

[Retan]

Vegeta is the king of idiot ball moments, but that's why Toriyama said he was really useful, I mean you can't have Goku or Gohan do it and be the heroes of the series.

[thatdbzguy]

The idiot ball really started rolling in the Cell saga.

And you people wonder why I hate the saga so much.

Vegeta should have just cut Oozaru Gohan in half instead of his tail.

It's idiotic things like this that make me wonder how these characters survived more than 10 seconds after their appearance.

[TheGmGoken]

The idiot ball really started rolling in the Cell saga.

And you people wonder why I hate the saga so much.

We do? Last time I check everyone here has an opinion. Some people here hate the Cell Arc just as much as you do. We don't wonder why you hate the saga. We just a bit tired of almost all your threads being negative towards DB. That's all.

On Topic: The "Idiot Ball" in DB is more or less Dramatic Irony. In which we're seeing things differently than the "People" experiencing it. We don't know what going threw their heads at the moment. It's like watching sports. For example

"HOW THE HELL DID HE MISS THAT TACKLE!? He's a dumbass. Why is he even on the field. Bench him for the season!"

I know a lot of people even myself who said things similar. However we only know what we see. The characters are acting realistic. We the fans are acting like this cause we're not in the same issue.

Though I don't see what's wrong with Vegeta trying to pull of Gohan's tail. Didn't Grandpa Gohan and Piccolo do the same?

[thatdbzguy]

Though I don't see what's wrong with Vegeta trying to pull of Gohan's tail. Didn't Grandpa Gohan and Piccolo do the same?

Except those times, Gohan wasn't transforming, so they had an easier time pulling it off. With Gohan in the middle of the transformation, don't you think just chopping it would have been quicker and more efficient?

And like Kid Buu said, Vegeta could've just cut Gohan himself in half, but he didn't because the plot forbade him from doing that.

[DBZAOTA482]

Though I don't see what's wrong with Vegeta trying to pull of Gohan's tail. Didn't Grandpa Gohan and Piccolo do the same?

Except those times, Gohan wasn't transforming, so they had an easier time pulling it off. With Gohan in the middle of the transformation, don't you think just chopping it would have been quicker and more efficient?

And like Kid Buu said, Vegeta could've just cut Gohan himself in half, but he didn't because the plot forbade him from doing that.

Vegeta was acting at the heat of the moment. Imagine if you was gonna get crushed by a giant, hairy gorilla falling over you and have just a few seconds to react.

[TheGmGoken]

Though I don't see what's wrong with Vegeta trying to pull of Gohan's tail. Didn't Grandpa Gohan and Piccolo do the same?

Except those times, Gohan wasn't transforming, so they had an easier time pulling it off. With Gohan in the middle of the transformation, don't you think just chopping it would have been quicker and more efficient?

And like Kid Buu said, Vegeta could've just cut Gohan himself in half, but he didn't because the plot forbade him from doing that.

Most manga and anime have manga and anime that has moments like that. There's plenty of times where a character that should be able to kill character X but didn't. DBZ isn't the first so that not a very good point.

Once again. You're looking from the wrong POV. For one Vegeta was too weak to even kill Yajoribe with a Super Wave. There's also the heat of the moment. Vegeta was going crazy because these Earthlings was giving him trouble. Nevermind the fact Vegeta usual is cocky meaning he most likely easily dominated most of his foes. It's called be realistic. Even in real life stuff like this happen. Hell in other manga and anime stuff like this happens. But I guess since it's DBZ it doesn't matter.

[thatdbzguy]

Though I don't see what's wrong with Vegeta trying to pull of Gohan's tail. Didn't Grandpa Gohan and Piccolo do the same?

Except those times, Gohan wasn't transforming, so they had an easier time pulling it off. With Gohan in the middle of the transformation, don't you think just chopping it would have been quicker and more efficient?

And like Kid Buu said, Vegeta could've just cut Gohan himself in half, but he didn't because the plot forbade him from doing that.

Vegeta was acting at the heat of the moment. Imagine if you was gonna get crushed by a giant, hairy gorilla falling over you and have just a few seconds to react.

If I had Vegeta's powers, I'd cut him in half, not just go for the tail.

Most manga and anime have moments like that.

That doesn't all of a sudden make it not bad writing.

[Retan]

I don't think Piccolo loosing and arm or Freeza losing half his tail is the same as cutting a 5 year old in half though, sounds a little disturbing at this point in Toriyama's career or at any point really.

[TheGmGoken]

If I had Vegeta's powers, I'd cut him in half, not just go for the tail.

You say that now. Let's see what happens if you were in the issue. You sound like everyone else who says "Wow I would have made that tackle!" "Wow I would have made that touchdown!" or even "Wow I would had dropped Micheal Jordan".

That doesn't all of a sudden make it not bad writing.

It's bad writing for Vegeta not to cut Gohan in half?