Anyone else think Vegeta was too easily forgiven by the end?

[Kid Buu]

Like Vegeta, I kinda wish Angel stayed dead since they didn't really make much of an impressive on me when they came back.

[ABED]

Like Vegeta, I kinda wish Angel stayed dead since they didn't really make much of an impressive on me when they came back.

He never died. He went to a Hell dimension, but never died.

Wait, how did Vegeta and Angel not leave an impression on you when they came back?

[Kid Buu]

Like Vegeta, I kinda wish Angel stayed dead since they didn't really make much of an impressive on me when they came back.

He never died. He went to a Hell dimension, but never died.

Wait, how did Vegeta and Angel not leave an impression on you when they came back?

Whoops, meant to say positive impression. I didnt like Cell & Buu arcs Vegeta nearly as much as Saiyan & Freeza arc Vegeta, and I didn't really care much for Angel in Season 3.

EDIT: Gonna take this to PM so we don't go off-topic. vvv

[ABED]

Like Vegeta, I kinda wish Angel stayed dead since they didn't really make much of an impressive on me when they came back.

He never died. He went to a Hell dimension, but never died.

Wait, how did Vegeta and Angel not leave an impression on you when they came back?

Whoops, meant to say positive impression. I didnt like Cell & Buu arcs Vegeta nearly as much as Saiyan & Freeza arc Vegeta, and I didn't really care much for Angel in Season 3.

Interesting, care to expand? Vegeta's arc is one of the best things Toriyama ever wrote.

I enjoy season 3, it's definitely dark, but interesting. Season 4 collapses in on itself, with the exception of the final episode (David's performance in the finale is excellent), but season 5 is brilliant - Spike and Angel forever!

[Attitudefan]

Vegeta had never saved more people than he killed. That is fact.

[hleV]

Vegeta had never saved more people than he killed. That is fact.

And for those he saved, it was usually the result of him being a selfish prick rather than a protector. He never really did anything for the sake of others (with a possible exception of his family, and even the most evil people can love/feel sympathy for their families), he always did things for himself, saving people/Earth/universe were unintentional results of that.

Evidently, usefulness beats evilness by Dragon World standarts, that's why Vegeta continued to be accepted by everyone even though he has always remained evil and dangerous.

[RandomGuy96]

Evidently, usefulness beats evilness by Dragon World standarts, that's why Vegeta continued to be accepted by everyone even though he has always remained evil and dangerous.

But he wasn't useful for anyone except the villains.

[hleV]

Evidently, usefulness beats evilness by Dragon World standarts, that's why Vegeta continued to be accepted by everyone even though he has always remained evil and dangerous.

But he wasn't useful for anyone except the villains.

Wasn't or not, according to Enma he may have been of use, which took the priority over sending the asshole to Hell. I actually meant potential usefulness rather than proven usefulness.

[Lumos]

I enjoy season 3, it's definitely dark, but interesting. Season 4 collapses in on itself, with the exception of the final episode (David's performance in the finale is excellent), but season 5 is brilliant - Spike and Angel forever!

Hear, hear (though for the record I did think season 4 had some really good individual episodes like Spin the Bottle and Soulless; for what it's worth I also think the Jasmine arc was for the most part fantastic).

On topic though, wasn't there a thread relatively recently that analysed Vegeta's characterisation after the Vegetto fusion and how he sort of seemed to have absorbed some of Goku's traits? Maybe some actual acknowledgement from Toriyama about this and how Vegeta was absolutely a changed person from that moment on would have been the right move to take?

(My apologies about comparing Vegeta with Angel BTW; evidently I got a little confused, having only seen both Buffy and Angel the once.)

[mAcChaos]

Man these quote sniping posts are unbearable to read, I just scroll past them at this point.

As for Vegeta, the DBZ universe is a lot more dangerous than ours, so people are more forgiving because they have to be. You never know when the next big threat can show up, and Vegeta still joins them to fight, regardless of his reasons. They probably put some stock in that.

Plus a lot of them hate him anyway. But we only see the characters on those few days when the entire world is at stake and they have to put on their big boy pants and work together. I'm sure after everything is safe, they're free to ditch him. But even then, soldiers in the trenches together develop bonds and it's not that different.

[ImmaDeker]

Like Vegeta, I kinda wish Angel stayed dead since they didn't really make much of an impressive on me when they came back.

Angel's spin off was awesome, so.

[MediaFanGirl93]

Hell, if there was any who really got off the hook in the end, it would be Piccolo. His previous incarnation committed countless crimes, but once his reincarnation joins Goku's side, he's a good guy, with all his previous bad deeds swept under the rug.

Presumably because Piccolo's bad deeds weren't as heinous as Vegeta's. Case in fact, Vegeta has more skeletons in his closet than Piccolo. It doesn't make Piccolo a saint though.

[shinmaru]

Vegeta had never saved more people than he killed. That is fact.

Without Bejita revived Heaven and Hell would sees to exist.
So bejita definitely saved more human than he killed.

[MediaFanGirl93]

Tien and Piccolo haven't forgiven Vegeta though.

While I do agree that Piccolo had less skeletons in his closet than Vegeta, I kind of find Piccolo to be a bit hypocritical. I mean, he was still a demon king and almost killed Goku and then successfully killed him.

[dbzfan7]

I still find it silly Vegeta is even classified as pure or good by that SSJ God ritual. Not doing any bad for a while doesn't mean you become good. I don't think he really gives a shit about anyone beyond his own family and "Friends" if he even has any beyond Goku. He's also not really looking to do any good, and doesn't seem very remorseful. I think the only times I can count are when he says sorry to Gohan and when he revives the people since his killings. Even then that last one could be just to bring back more people..

[Attitudefan]

I still find it silly Vegeta is even classified as pure or good by that SSJ God ritual. Not doing any bad for a while doesn't mean you become good. I don't think he really gives a shit about anyone beyond his own family and "Friends" if he even has any beyond Goku. He's also not really looking to do any good, and doesn't seem very remorseful. I think the only times I can count are when he says sorry to Gohan and when he revives the people since his killings. Even then that last one could be just to bring back more people..

If he was remorseful, he'd be haunted by his actions. I see none of that

[DBZAOTA482]

I still find it silly Vegeta is even classified as pure or good by that SSJ God ritual. Not doing any bad for a while doesn't mean you become good. I don't think he really gives a shit about anyone beyond his own family and "Friends" if he even has any beyond Goku. He's also not really looking to do any good, and doesn't seem very remorseful. I think the only times I can count are when he says sorry to Gohan and when he revives the people since his killings. Even then that last one could be just to bring back more people..

If he was remorseful, he'd be haunted by his actions. I see none of that

That'd be pretty dark for a shonen like Dragon Ball.

[dbzfan7]

I still find it silly Vegeta is even classified as pure or good by that SSJ God ritual. Not doing any bad for a while doesn't mean you become good. I don't think he really gives a shit about anyone beyond his own family and "Friends" if he even has any beyond Goku. He's also not really looking to do any good, and doesn't seem very remorseful. I think the only times I can count are when he says sorry to Gohan and when he revives the people since his killings. Even then that last one could be just to bring back more people..

If he was remorseful, he'd be haunted by his actions. I see none of that

Pretty much why I can't see him as being righteous or pure. He's just not a psychopath. Apparently being pure is pretty damn easy.

[TheZFighter]

I think the first important thing to consider is that a lot of what happened wasn't Vegeta's "fault" as such. I mean, obviously it was his fault to a point because it was him he did all these heinous acts, and I'm not trying to exonerate him completely, but in the greater scheme of things it wasn't his "fault". For a start, he was a member of a proud warrior race with an insatiable appetite for battle. Had he not bumped his head, Goku would've pretty much been exactly the same. The other key point was he was grew up under the evil tyrant Frieza, was forced to do his bidding, and had to experience the genocide of his entire race at a young age. Things like that would be pretty psychologically damaging to anyone, let alone a young kid.

He came to Earth and he didn't exactly do anything that was much worse than Piccolo and his "family". By the end of the Frieza Saga we did start to see Vegeta mellowing, notably when he poured his heart out on his deathbed, but in typical Vegeta fashion, his pride didn't allow him to accept this change in himself, and he continued to fight it across the Android and Cell Sagas, before seemingly settling into family life during the seven years of peace and accepting it. Goku's return reverted Vegeta back to his old ways and led to the massacre of many humans at the World Martial Arts Tournament. However, Vegeta had most definitely changed, and sacrificed himself in a failed attempt to stop Majin Buu, a massive indication of a change in him.

Was Vegeta forgiven too easily in the end? I don't think so. Obviously, in the real world, Vegeta's crimes would've led to capital punishment, but this isn't the real world. Piccolo was forgiven and accepted into the Z Fighters and he was similar to Vegeta in a sense. Goku would've forgiven Vegeta a million times for anything, again and again, because that it what Goku is like. However, it was a greater forgiveness than that. Vegeta was forgiven by the gods. He was bought back to life in the wish to bring back all the good hearted people who had died since Babidi's arrival on Earth. Is there a greater redemption than that?

[rereboy]

I think the first important thing to consider is that a lot of what happened wasn't Vegeta's "fault" as such. I mean, obviously it was his fault to a point because it was him he did all these heinous acts, and I'm not trying to exonerate him completely, but in the greater scheme of things it wasn't his "fault". For a start, he was a member of a proud warrior race with an insatiable appetite for battle. Had he not bumped his head, Goku would've pretty much been exactly the same. The other key point was he was grew up under the evil tyrant Freeza, was forced to do his bidding, and had to experience the genocide of his entire race at a young age. Things like that would be pretty psychologically damaging to anyone, let alone a young kid.

He came to Earth and he didn't exactly do anything that was much worse than Piccolo and his "family". By the end of the Freeza Saga we did start to see Vegeta mellowing, notably when he poured his heart out on his deathbed, but in typical Vegeta fashion, his pride didn't allow him to accept this change in himself, and he continued to fight it across the Android and Cell Sagas, before seemingly settling into family life during the seven years of peace and accepting it. Goku's return reverted Vegeta back to his old ways and led to the massacre of many humans at the World Martial Arts Tournament. However, Vegeta had most definitely changed, and sacrificed himself in a failed attempt to stop Majin Buu, a massive indication of a change in him.

Was Vegeta forgiven too easily in the end? I don't think so. Obviously, in the real world, Vegeta's crimes would've led to capital punishment, but this isn't the real world. Piccolo was forgiven and accepted into the Z Fighters and he was similar to Vegeta in a sense. Goku would've forgiven Vegeta a million times for anything, again and again, because that it what Goku is like. However, it was a greater forgiveness than that. Vegeta was forgiven by the gods. He was bought back to life in the wish to bring back all the good hearted people who had died since Babidi's arrival on Earth. Is there a greater redemption than that?

I don't agree. Vegeta was portrayed as being worse than Nappa. Nappa actually suggested reviving Raditz with the Dragon Balls, Vegeta didn't even consider it. And when Nappa was hurt, he fully expected Vegeta to help him, showing us that even for a saiyan, that was an expected behavior, and yet Vegeta just killed him.

Vegeta was a bastard, even for saiyan standards.