Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed it?

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Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed it?

Post by TVfan721 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:22 pm

The original broadcast audio for DBZ has been a big topic but Funimation has already cleaned it up a lot on the Blu Ray Season Sets and it sounds really good. It may not be AS good as the original audio but still a great improvement and pretty close to the quality of the original. I don't think the original audio is good enough to warrant buying the entire series again. Considering how bad it is on the Dragon Boxes, what Funimation was light years ahead of that.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:28 pm

Mild EQ and noise removal is not a fix nor does it come even remotely close to the broadcast audio. It's a cheap bandaid over a rotting wound. It's better, sure, but you can't turn a turd into gold.

I sincerely question your ability to discern audio quality if you think the work FUNi did was significant, let alone close, to the original quality.

There's enough comparisons out there that showcase the rare audio. I highly suggest going back and listening again.

The new source that Kei acquired sounds fantastic. Previous sources required some low end boost to counteract the filter used on broadcast. This new stuff barely requires that. It could have been recorded yesterday.
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Bananape » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:45 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:The new source that Kei acquired sounds fantastic. Previous sources required some low end boost to counteract the filter used on broadcast. This new stuff barely requires that. It could have been recorded yesterday.
Wait, what? A new source?

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by AnimeMaakuo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:07 pm

Bananape wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:The new source that Kei acquired sounds fantastic. Previous sources required some low end boost to counteract the filter used on broadcast. This new stuff barely requires that. It could have been recorded yesterday.
Wait, what? A new source?
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by bkev » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:04 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote: I sincerely question your ability to discern audio quality if you think the work FUNi did was significant, let alone close, to the original quality.
Quite snarky, don't you think? While it's not perfect, the FUNi improved audio is quite good considering the source. Definitely better than I could EQ on the fly myself with previous releases.

Though you are of course right that it doesn't quite hold a candle to the broadcast audio, I'd call it at least significant.
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by kei17 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:53 am

Personally I don't find FUNi's restoration decent. It does sound "better" than untouched optical soundtrack, but that doesn't justify their remaster. The way optical audio originally sounds is one of the final forms intended by audio engineers at the time. They should respect it. It's similar to "grain or no grain" arguments.

Artistic things aside, I think their decision matches the demand, though. For casual fans, one of the drawbacks of the original version must be inferior sound quality.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Metalwario64 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:21 am

kei17 wrote:Personally I don't find FUNi's restoration decent. It does sound "better" than untouched optical soundtrack, but that doesn't justify their remaster. The way optical audio originally sounds is one of the final forms intended by audio engineers at the time. They should respect it. It's similar to "grain or no grain" arguments.

Artistic things aside, I think their decision matches the demand, though. For casual fans, one of the drawbacks of the original version must be inferior sound quality.
My problem is that the high ends were boosted too much, so anything with higher frequencies is too sharp and hurts my ears.
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:21 am

bkev wrote: Quite snarky, don't you think? While it's not perfect, the FUNi improved audio is quite good considering the source. Definitely better than I could EQ on the fly myself with previous releases.

Though you are of course right that it doesn't quite hold a candle to the broadcast audio, I'd call it at least significant.
Oh yeah, deliberately so. It's not 'light years ahead'.

It is not even remotely close to this. Kikuchi's score sounds warped and empty on FUNi's release and the Dragon Boxes.

You can't fix that with EQ and noise removal. You can't fix the distorted screams, punches, and loudest parts of the music.
I don't think the original audio is good enough to warrant buying the entire series again.
That's why this thread annoys me. After all the work that's been put into getting this audio to the right people, this gets right under my skin. Especially since it's so patently incorrect.
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Tzigi » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:44 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote: That's why this thread annoys me. After all the work that's been put into getting this audio to the right people, this gets right under my skin. Especially since it's so patently incorrect.
I appreciate your effort but I don't notice any difference - maybe I have some problem with hearing (though I've been tested and nothing wrong has been found) and I suspect that there are other people like me. I have listened to kei's samples and compared them to different versions of the show and I heard no difference. Mind you: if you say that you hear a difference, then I guess your hearing is better then mine but were it not for my having read the thread regarding your finding and delivery of the tapes, I'd think that all this is just much ado about nothing and I guess that the OP simply didn't read it in the first place.

But then again my husband can't understand how there's no difference for me between HD ready and Full HD resolution so maybe I'm just quality-decerning-challenged...

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:06 am

I'm not home right now but I can post very stark comparisons from the Bardock special. The part where Bardock rushes Freeza's ship is great for comparisons. You've got that thumping music, screams and sound effects, which all showcase some of the worst parts of optical audio. I find the differences incredibly clear there so hopefully it'll help those who are struggling in the more subtle scenes.

I'll also throw up some stuff from Episode 95. Goku's transformation is similarly useful. Nozawa's screams are pretty distorted, the lightning strikes are quite painful, and it all sounds quite empty. The broadcast audio is significantly better.

I wish I could talk about why this audio is especially useful after Sabat's talks with AnimeMaakuo. I feel like there'd be a better understanding of why the audio is so useful outside of a pure quality upgrade. Unfortunately, I've been asked to keep that under wraps for the time being.
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:26 pm

Here we go!

A few things to note - the Bardock audio is from an older source (Kei can correct me if I'm wrong) and I don't believe it's the original file that was sent to me. I'm fairly sure it's a version I was playing around with which is why it's a lacking a little low end. I could be wrong, I honestly don't know where that original file has gone. Either way, #95's audio is what you would expect from a home release. The difference there is astounding.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Tzigi » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:43 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:Here we go!
OK, so I listened to it and literally the only place where I've noticed a difference is when Goku says: "Gohan what-ever-the-beginning-of-this-verb-is-shiro". There one voice was like a normal movie and another like a real human speaking (I'm not sure which one I'd like more). But apart from this one moment everything else was the same for me.
I now feel terribly sorry for my inability to appreciate your hard work but that's the truth: for me there's no difference. Then again it shouldn't really matter since I don't like animes in general and where there's a manga, I tend to stick to it so I'd mostly likely never use the updated anime anyway.

Still, I'm happy that you've managed to track those recordings down and that you are enjoying them.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:46 pm

Tzigi wrote: OK, so I listened to it and literally the only place where I've noticed a difference is when Goku says: "Gohan what-ever-the-beginning-of-this-verb-is-shiro". There one voice was like a normal movie and another like a real human speaking (I'm not sure which one I'd like more). But apart from this one moment everything else was the same for me.
Out of curiosity, what are you listening through? Laptop speakers, headphones or 'proper' speakers?
Still, I'm happy that you've managed to track those recordings down and that you are enjoying them.
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by sangofe » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:44 pm

Tzigi wrote:
AjayLikesGaming wrote:Here we go!
OK, so I listened to it and literally the only place where I've noticed a difference is when Goku says: "Gohan what-ever-the-beginning-of-this-verb-is-shiro". There one voice was like a normal movie and another like a real human speaking (I'm not sure which one I'd like more). But apart from this one moment everything else was the same for me.
I now feel terribly sorry for my inability to appreciate your hard work but that's the truth: for me there's no difference. Then again it shouldn't really matter since I don't like animes in general and where there's a manga, I tend to stick to it so I'd mostly likely never use the updated anime anyway.

Still, I'm happy that you've managed to track those recordings down and that you are enjoying them.
What, are you serious? Even on a laptop with crappy speakers I heard a clear difference.... Put on a head set, and the difference's glaring.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by TVfan721 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:24 pm

This is my first time seeing this thread since my initial post. I'm just seeing AjayLikesGaming's messages now. My original opinion still stands despite his snarky remarks towards me. (I'm respecting VegettoEX's rules for this forum and I will not be replying to his remark, I simply notified the moderators about it, I know those kind of comments are not tolerated here and I'm not getting into a fight with him)

Is the quality on the DBoxes and Orange Bricks shit? Absolutely.

Is it STILL listenable and manageable to deal with? Absolutely.

The general opinion I'm getting is that the audio quality is so bad, that it's simply unbearable to listen to and I just can't support that because I simply don't agree. Even at it's worst, it's still decent enough. It's shit compared to the original audio which I first heard in 2011 but STILL listenable.

So for the Blu Ray's, Funimation took an audio that was already listenable and improved upon it even more and I'm perfectly content with that. In my opinion, it sounds much better than what it was before. a lot less muffled and more clear. Yes, it's still not as good as the original audio Kei posted but it's GOOD ENOUGH that I have no reason in my opinion to buy the series with original audio if it ever happened. I simply don't care, what we have now is good enough. That's just my opinion and if I'm the only one who thinks, then that's perfectly cool.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:46 pm

tvfan721 wrote:This is my first time seeing this thread since my initial post. I'm just seeing AjayLikesGaming's messages now. My original opinion still stands despite his snarky remarks towards me. (I'm respecting VegettoEX's rules for this forum and I will not be replying to his remark, I simply notified the moderators about it, I know those kind of comments are not tolerated here and I'm not getting into a fight with him)
That's fine. It's no more snarky than comments made by sitewide moderators so I see no issue. If you're really upset by it then have an apology. This is a subject I feel strongly about so I tend to speak strongly.
The general opinion I'm getting is that the audio quality is so bad, that it's simply unbearable to listen to and I just can't support that because I simply don't agree. Even at it's worst, it's still decent enough. It's shit compared to the original audio which I first heard in 2011 but STILL listenable.
I don't think many call it unbearable to listen to. If anything, that crowd is a minority. Either way, I am with you on that - it's perfectly listenable.

I just take issue with this thread. You've said you don't find the original audio to be worth an upgrade. Okay? So what's the point of this thread if only to state your opinion so adamantly.

Is there genuine discussion to be had or no? Despite one off-hand remark, I've tried to post comparisons to actually have a conversation.

What are you looking to get out of this thread?
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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by NitroEX » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:43 pm

For what it's worth I think the bad audio quality can dissuade some people from choosing to watch the original version simply because it sounds like something from a cassette tape. I've seen people on social networks and various other websites comment on how they won't watch an old anime because of some minor nitpick like film grain so it wouldn't surprise me. The audio is a big part of the presentation and if their first impression is coupled with "old sounding" audio that could turn some (especially younger people) off right away.

At the same time a lot of people won't care at all about the audio quality and some might not even be able to tell the difference but that's to be expected. You're always going to get a large majority of people who have low standards about this kind of stuff but it's good that there are plenty of people out there who care and want to try to fix it.

I'm not sure if Funimation will see enough money incentive to have another release just for improved Japanese audio though.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Tzigi » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:31 am

AjayLikesGaming wrote: Out of curiosity, what are you listening through? Laptop speakers, headphones or 'proper' speakers?
Laptop speakers (I don't have 'proper' speakers and probably won't be able to afford them for the next decade or so) - Lenovo Thinkpad X131e.
sangofe wrote: Put on a head set, and the difference's glaring.
That won't do - given the fact that I destroy about a headset a month (just by the fact of carrying it around in my backpack), I don't spend more then 20 zł (that's $5.5 for you) so they are just ok for listening to audiobooks but for nothing else. I have no clearer way of listening to audio then using my laptop speakers.

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by TVfan721 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:16 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:
tvfan721 wrote:This is my first time seeing this thread since my initial post. I'm just seeing AjayLikesGaming's messages now. My original opinion still stands despite his snarky remarks towards me. (I'm respecting VegettoEX's rules for this forum and I will not be replying to his remark, I simply notified the moderators about it, I know those kind of comments are not tolerated here and I'm not getting into a fight with him)
That's fine. It's no more snarky than comments made by sitewide moderators so I see no issue. If you're really upset by it then have an apology. This is a subject I feel strongly about so I tend to speak strongly.
The general opinion I'm getting is that the audio quality is so bad, that it's simply unbearable to listen to and I just can't support that because I simply don't agree. Even at it's worst, it's still decent enough. It's shit compared to the original audio which I first heard in 2011 but STILL listenable.
I don't think many call it unbearable to listen to. If anything, that crowd is a minority. Either way, I am with you on that - it's perfectly listenable.

I just take issue with this thread. You've said you don't find the original audio to be worth an upgrade. Okay? So what's the point of this thread if only to state your opinion so adamantly.

Is there genuine discussion to be had or no? Despite one off-hand remark, I've tried to post comparisons to actually have a conversation.

What are you looking to get out of this thread?
Not upset at all man, just trying to follow the rules and didn't want to risk getting into an argument. I've been given the OK though to reply back so here we go!

What's with you dude, are you trying to be a moderator or something? This is a discussion forum, people post opinions, others reply and either agree or disagree. This thread is no different than any other on here. I don't need to answer to you about why or why not a certain thread exists, your reply just reeks of arrogance. I simply posted a opinion and people can either agree or disagree. Clearly nothing wrong was done as evident by the fact that no moderators have replied here.

And seriously man, I'd suggest you simply stop this now. You're making yourself look obnoxious and self-righteous and I don't want you to do that to yourself. I respect that this is a cause that you believe really strongly in and if getting the original audio out there is something that means that much to you, then I really hope it happens. Your sensitivity and arrogance in this thread are not helping your case though man. From what I gather, you seem to be the leader and voice (or at least one of them) for the group of fans out there who want the original audio and you're making that whole group look bad right now. It's silly to get worked up because someone doesn't share the same opinion as you.

Anywho, I'm done. Good luck with your cause and I really mean that :thumbup:

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Re: Why does original audio matter when Funi's already fixed

Post by Ajay » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:54 pm

I'm not trying to be a moderator by attempting to discern where a thread is meant to be going. I do mean that sincerely and I'm not sure how else to phrase it at the risk of coming across as 'arrogant', 'obnoxious', 'self-righteous' or whatever else you'd like to call me. Which, I have to say, I find far more antagonistic than a genuine (albeit snarky) remark about quality judgement. Please don't call my character into question.

You've stated a dissenting opinion, other's have responded in turn and...that's it? I just struggle to see what's meant to come of this, other than a circular "you're wrong, I'm right" rhetoric from either party. If there's more to it and I'm totally missing that then I can only apologise.

I have nothing to do with the group responsible for collecting the broadcast audio. I'm not a mouthpiece, I'm not a leader, nor do my comments have any bearing on anything but myself. I'm simply a fan with (what I hope is) a reasonable understanding of audio, who sees a significant enough difference, alongside the potential to create something spectacular with it.

If you don't find the jump to be significant from FUNi's attempts to the raw broadcast audio then that's fine, I should at least make efforts to respect that even if I do find it hard to comprehend. But, if you don't mind, please consider this:

Taking near-pristine Fuji TV audio, pushing dialogue into a center channel, while putting effects and CD quality BGM into the remaining channels to create a 5.1 mix. That's not a fan dream, that's a genuine idea Chris Sabat was planning to attempt should he get the go ahead. A modern 5.1 mix of Dragon Ball?! Original monaural intentions (and morality debates) aside, that's exciting stuff!

But look at it from my perspective - someone then claims that FUNi's work was good enough and they don't want to buy a new release for audio. That's really tough to take in. I don't want to see a slew of people settling for less and potentially harming the chance of the audio being used - all from, what I can only consider a lack of understanding and interest, as a result. That's precisely what happened with the Season Blu-rays and that's exactly what I worry will happen here, yet again.

Off-colour comments from myself certainly don't help genuine concerns like that come across well, and I do apologise for that - I really do. I have a vested interest because I want nothing more than for this audio to get an official release. I know I get over-passionate and that does sometimes result in behavior that's not the most savory thing in the world. I just hope you understand where I'm coming from.

You're probably right to leave things as they are. I guess we're on two different ends of the spectrum. I'm certainly open to continue if you'd like, though.
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