Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Puaru wrote:The lamest thing to come out of modern Dragon Ball is definitely Gohan. I feel like I wanna go inside the Dragon Ball universe and kick his weak ass and yell at him for being so goddamn lame.
*Inhales* Gohan right from the get go was set up to be a more scholarly type who hates fighting and only resorts to it when needed. Him settling down is perfectly in character, the cast isn't just a bunch of violence obsessed freaks who sit around waiting for the next bad guy to show up.
The opposite, really..Gohan was led through several challenges where he had to tap into his power in order to protect his friends and family. From Raditz, to the saiyans, to Frieza, and especially Cell - Gohan was slowly progressing towards embracing his power and role as protector of Earth. This climaxed in the Buu Saga, when he stopped training and all of a sudden the fate of the entire planet rested on his shoulders again. And he lost. Again.
If anything, Gohan being constantly bailed out my his father and the rest of the cast is a missed opportunity for the writing team. He can be conflicted with his role, he can still fight against the role that he is constantly pushed into playing, but for him to just give up training after failing so miserable to protect the ones he loves over and over again despite the hidden potential in him is just nonsensical.
Probably a small thing, but I loved the golden tail while in the Super Saiyan state:
And I HATE that the modern media ignores that:
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Thanks for reviving this thead, I have some more stuff to add:
Dragon Ball Super movie can potentially be one of the lamest thing to come out in modern Dragon Ball. It is the first movie of the latest series and it is about anyone other than a crap old movie character returning once again... I've already said and I'll say again: if this is some kind of a joke, it's the worst one I've ever heard. They better deliver a good chunk of information, explanation, screentime and character development for certain Saiyans of the past, only then this movie has a chance to save itself.
Bringing back Freeza and wasting an entire movie for him just to kill him at the end wasn't enough, we need to have another unncessary character on the screen again. By the gods, what the series have become?
Last edited by Grimlock on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
• We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into. •
Grimlock wrote:Bringing back Freeza and wasting an entire movie for him just to kill him at the end wasn't enough, we need to have another unncessary character on the screen again.
Look on the bright side, they probably won't kill Broly off so in the future he (and Freeza) can hang with everyone at capsule corp. All that's left is to bring Cell back and the gang will all be reunited.
By the gods, what the series have become ?
A cash cow.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
sintzu wrote:Look on the bright side, they probably won't kill Broly off so in the future he (and Freeza) can hang with everyone at capsule corp. All that's left is to bring Cell back and the gang will all be reunited.
Bringing back Cell would be better than all this nonsense that we've been getting lately. He has more to offer, he has Saiyans, Freeza and Piccolo cells, you can do whatever you want with the character and explore whatever concept through him.
No, let's just bring back characters that don't add anything valuable to the franchise instead...
A cash cow.
• We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into. •
Grimlock wrote:Let's just bring back characters that don't add anything valuable to the franchise instead...
He adds $$$ value.
We are SO fucking beyond the stage to be rightfully complaining about Dragon Ball being exploited for extra profit.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:We are SO fucking beyond the stage to be rightfully complaining about Dragon Ball being exploited for extra profit.
That's been the case since BOG and things are just going to continue down that road. Once this movie breaks RF's record you're going to see all kinds of crazy things we thought we'd never see be front and center moving forward. I completely understand not being happy about where things have ended up but that's modern DB for you. DB didn't come back because it had this grand story to tell (not that it hasn't been good), it simply needed new content for merchandise and games. I do believe things would've been a lot worse without Toriyama cause at least with him we can get fun stories and characters.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Lord Beerus wrote:We are SO fucking beyond the stage to be rightfully complaining about Dragon Ball being exploited for extra profit.
That's been the case since BOG and things are just going to continue down that road. Once this movie breaks RF's record you're going to see all kinds of crazy things we thought we'd never see be front and center moving forward. I completely understand not being happy about where things have ended up but that's modern DB for you. DB didn't come back because it had this grand story to tell (not that it hasn't been good), it simply needed new content for merchandise and games. I do believe things would've been a lot worse without Toriyama cause at least with him we can get fun stories and characters.
This has been going on since the late 80s. It's didn't just start with Battle Of Gods. Hell, Battle Of Gods was meant to be a one time thing. What really got the ball rolling more Dragon Ball being produced in last few years was Resurrection F... which Toriyama's idea from day one. And that snowballed into Dragon Ball Super... which Toriyama was heavily involved in.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:This has been going on since the late 80s. It's didn't just start with Battle Of Gods.
I know it got merchandise in the 80s and 90s but it never impacted the story, at least not in a way I know of.
The story ended back in 1995.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
perucho1990 wrote:With all respect but it has to be Post BoG movie Akira Toriyama, his latest interview proves that he is really in a mentally bad shape, the fact Roshi got more focused than 50% of U7 is a big example of that.
In 2017, the likes of Tite Kubo and Hiro Mashima would be an upgrade for writing the outlines, at least we couldve gotten a better antagonist than Jiren.
So Roshi getting more focus than other stronger characters is an example of Toriyama's being in mentally bad shape? What's wrong with you?
Between you and the Namekian I think I've lost my touch at genocide. -PSN Xenoverse 2 account: Yonedge-HP. Freeza's race Ki blast avatar: Yonedge.
Filler and canon discussions are "meh"
sintzu wrote:That's been the case since BOG and things are just going to continue down that road. Once this movie breaks RF's record you're going to see all kinds of crazy things we thought we'd never see be front and center moving forward. I completely understand not being happy about where things have ended up but that's modern DB for you. DB didn't come back because it had this grand story to tell (not that it hasn't been good), it simply needed new content for merchandise and games. I do believe things would've been a lot worse without Toriyama cause at least with him we can get fun stories and characters.
Let's not kid ourselves from the fact that Dragon Ball has been a cash cow the moment it went beyond the first arc and sold thousand of volumes with that arc in a single volume.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.
perucho1990 wrote:With all respect but it has to be Post BoG movie Akira Toriyama, his latest interview proves that he is really in a mentally bad shape, the fact Roshi got more focused than 50% of U7 is a big example of that.
In 2017, the likes of Tite Kubo and Hiro Mashima would be an upgrade for writing the outlines, at least we couldve gotten a better antagonist than Jiren.
So Roshi getting more focus than other stronger characters is an example of Toriyama's being in mentally bad shape? What's wrong with you?
I wouldn't say that's a "proof", but he got a point: Roshi passed the torch to the new generation in the 22nd TB arc and it feels off that he suddens wants to take take part of the action again, when we could actually see more Yamcha or Chaozu
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
perucho1990 wrote:With all respect but it has to be Post BoG movie Akira Toriyama, his latest interview proves that he is really in a mentally bad shape, the fact Roshi got more focused than 50% of U7 is a big example of that.
In 2017, the likes of Tite Kubo and Hiro Mashima would be an upgrade for writing the outlines, at least we couldve gotten a better antagonist than Jiren.
So Roshi getting more focus than other stronger characters is an example of Toriyama's being in mentally bad shape? What's wrong with you?
I wouldn't say that's a "proof", but he got a point: Roshi passed the torch to the new generation in the 22nd TB arc and it feels off that he suddens wants to take take part of the action again, when we could actually see more Yamcha or Chaozu
Agreed, but I think the other person was talking the comment on Toriyama's mental health. For example, if the first person had said "his talent degrading" or something like that instead of talking about his mental health, I doubt he would have had an issue.
The lamest thing about modern DB is the amount of people that complain angrily about modern DB.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
PFM18 wrote:The lamest thing about modern DB is the amount of people that complain angrily about modern DB.
And where would we be without that?
Ummm exactly where we are now? Their complaints don't change anything
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
They better deliver a good chunk of information, explanation, screentime and character development for certain Saiyans of the past, only then this movie has a chance to save itself.
