General "Canon/Filler" Debate/Discussion

[ABED]

I think that you want some reassurance that when people refer to "headcanon," that they're not trying to say that it's actually part of the canon just because we think it is. That's all well and good.

Partly, but also understand why it's a dumb term. The concept is fine, but no one ever had a problem with saying "I wish..." or "in my head..." There was absolutely zero need to put the concepts of personal preference and canon together to create a word that doesn't have to do with half the words that were combined into one.

Alright, so it's a "dumb term". It's still in usage by fandoms everywhere. And sure, there was no need to put those concepts together, but somebody somewhere decided they wanted it, so here we are. I'm just curious at this point: what do you hope to accomplish with this discussion?

Not to sound like a smartass, but what did you hope to accomplish by responding constantly?

I wanted people to at least acknowledge that it's a ridiculous term and maybe, just MAYBE, at least one person will stop and realize how asinine it is and stop using it.

[MetaMoss]

Alright, so it's a "dumb term". It's still in usage by fandoms everywhere. And sure, there was no need to put those concepts together, but somebody somewhere decided they wanted it, so here we are. I'm just curious at this point: what do you hope to accomplish with this discussion?

Not to sound like a smartass, but what did you hope to accomplish by responding constantly?

To establish that I find headcanon to be a useful term and to help you understand why it was made and how useful it is in fandom discussions, at least at first. Now, I'm trying to understand why you think stopping a word from being used is a productive use of your time and why you believe this is relevant to the discussion of Dragon Ball canon.

I wanted people to at least acknowledge that it's a ridiculous term and maybe, just MAYBE, at least one person will stop and realize how asinine it is and stop using it.

And I was hoping that you'd at least understand why the term is in usage, then maybe you'd just let people have their discussions about it, even if you didn't like it. But now we have pages of this thread solely dedicated to whether or not we can use a word. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

[SSJ Human]

I love it how people try to make some of the movies fit into continuity and then concede that they are all not canon in comparison to Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'.

[ABED]

To establish that I find headcanon to be a useful term

But how is it anymore useful than "in my head..."?

And I was hoping that you'd at least understand why the term is in usage, then maybe you'd just let people have their discussions about it, even if you didn't like it. But now we have pages of this thread solely dedicated to whether or not we can use a word. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

That was never the issue. I know why it was in usage. And I'm stopping no one from discussing anything so stop putting this all on me. You didn't have to respond. That more than anything does actually bother me beyond the realm of this forum, when people put blame on one person for a discussion/debate when it takes at least two to have one.

I love it how people try to make some of the movies fit into continuity and then concede that they are all not canon in comparison to Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'.

That's something I don't understand. It's either canon or it's not, it's not a comparative concept.

[SSJ Human]

That's something I don't understand. It's either canon or it's not, it's not a comparative concept.

Exactly. You'll see fans who make the claim that Dead Zone can fit in but then point out the continuity errors that make it impossible for it to have taken place within the series.

[TheGreatness25]

I think it's just hard for people to grasp the concept of something like that. What story have you ever seen where some of the official material that comes out isn't considered part of the story? Before Dragon Ball -- and I guess anime in general -- I've never encountered this either. Thankfully I was quick to grasp the concept, but I can understand how people want to fit everything into a package.

[ABED]

I think it's just hard for people to grasp the concept of something like that. What story have you ever seen where some of the official material that comes out isn't considered part of the story? Before Dragon Ball -- and I guess anime in general -- I've never encountered this either. Thankfully I was quick to grasp the concept, but I can understand how people want to fit everything into a package.

But how does the term make that any clearer? If anything, it makes it less clear. It's just as, if not more clear to say something like, "In my opinion, GT should be considered in continuity with the rest of Dragon Ball."

Comics do this all the time. They have elseworlds tales. Take The Killing Joke. It wasn't written with the intent of being in continuity with the monthly Batman titles, but someone decided it should.

[TheGreatness25]

I think it's just hard for people to grasp the concept of something like that. What story have you ever seen where some of the official material that comes out isn't considered part of the story? Before Dragon Ball -- and I guess anime in general -- I've never encountered this either. Thankfully I was quick to grasp the concept, but I can understand how people want to fit everything into a package.

But how does the term make that any clearer? If anything, it makes it less clear. It's just as, if not more clear to say something like, "In my opinion, GT should be considered in continuity with the rest of Dragon Ball."

Comics do this all the time. They have elseworlds tales. Take The Killing Joke. It wasn't written with the intent of being in continuity with the monthly Batman titles, but someone decided it should.

What are you talking about? I got off the "headcanon" thing several posts ago when it became clear that it doesn't contribute anything to this thread. I was referring to the people who tried to stuff the movies into canon.

You seem to think that everyone should abide by your preferences. "In my opinion GT should be considered canon" is the exact same thing as "GT is my headcanon" as in the canon according to my head (thoughts). Get off of it dude.

[MetaMoss]

What story have you ever seen where some of the official material that comes out isn't considered part of the story?

I can think of a few off the top of my head, but it's almost always a case where the authority goes out of their way to deem the non-canonical installments as such, either right when they're released (ie Marvel's What-If? series) or after the fact (see Star Wars Legends, formerly the Star Wars Expanded Universe). With Dragon Ball, we have a manga that has its linear narrative that (generally) is internally consistent, an anime adaption that (mostly) follows that manga, but adds in its own material that may or may not be contradicted later (as well as its own original continuation), movies that premiered alongside both that doesn't seem to have much of a care about fitting in with either, newer movies that are called "the continuation to the official story", a newer original anime that re-tells those movies, but changes things, then goes off on its own, and all various spinoff materials. All this, and no official word on how these are meant to fit together, save for a slight mention here or there.

[TheGreatness25]

I mean it also doesn't help that the movies would air on Toonami as if they were any other episode lol I remember before Toonami, once DBZ would get to that last episode that they dubbed on Namek, the next episode would be Tree of Might. In fact, I think that's how Toonami did it also.

[ABED]

I mean it also doesn't help that the movies would air on Toonami as if they were any other episode lol I remember before Toonami, once DBZ would get to that last episode that they dubbed on Namek, the next episode would be Tree of Might. In fact, I think that's how Toonami did it also.

I don't remember it that way. I remember that in syndication, but I recall Toonami explicitly stating if it was a feature.

[MetaMoss]

I mean it also doesn't help that the movies would air on Toonami as if they were any other episode lol I remember before Toonami, once DBZ would get to that last episode that they dubbed on Namek, the next episode would be Tree of Might. In fact, I think that's how Toonami did it also.

I don't remember it that way. I remember that in syndication, but I recall Toonami explicitly stating if it was a feature.

Tree of Might was special because of how it was placed as a three-episode "mini-arc" in the middle of the Ocean dub, which I don't remember if it was included in the Toonami airing. The "Pioneer" dub of the movie did air as its own feature.

[ABED]

I know that it happened in syndication without any note or warning. I remember watching the Tree of Might "episodes" and being confused. Wait, they're on Namek, now they're on Earth? But that confusion was transient. I can't imagine anyone who is wondering about canon wouldn't be the type to look on the net for answers. I did back then and the net was in its infancy.

The video you linked to wasn't the "Pioneer" dub of those movies.

[MetaMoss]

The video you linked to wasn't the "Pioneer" dub of those movies.

Is it the 3-episode version, then? I'm not too familiar with the differences.

EDIT: Just heard Goku say "Kay-o Ken". I think I get which one it is now.

[TheGreatness25]

There are two dubs of "Tree of Might": the edited one with dub music and Ian James Corlett as Goku and the other is Pioneer's uncut one with the Japanese music and Peter Kelamis as Goku. The Pioneer dub had its own DVD release while the edited one was part of the "Rock the Dragon" set. Truth be told, I was actually very happy to finally have the edited version of "Tree of Might" since that's the one I saw on Toonami and regardless of how faithful it is, I think that Ian Corlett's portrayal of Goku was phenomenal. I don't know why; it's just how he delivers the lines. The line in "Tree of Might" where he says, "You planted this tree on our land? Well it's gotta go!" it just sounds so powerful. As much as I like Sean Schemmel, I think that the very first choice they ever had was a slam dunk.

[MetaMoss]

There are two dubs of "Tree of Might": the edited one with dub music and Ian James Corlett as Goku and the other is Pioneer's uncut one with the Japanese music and Peter Kelamis as Goku. The Pioneer dub had its own DVD release while the edited one was part of the "Rock the Dragon" set. Truth be told, I was actually very happy to finally have the edited version of "Tree of Might" since that's the one I saw on Toonami and regardless of how faithful it is, I think that Ian Corlett's portrayal of Goku was phenomenal. I don't know why; it's just how he delivers the lines. The line in "Tree of Might" where he says, "You planted this tree on our land? Well it's gotta go!" it just sounds so powerful. As much as I like Sean Schemmel, I think that the very first choice they ever had was a slam dunk.

I guess I should have said "I couldn't tell which one it was from the short voice clips", I'm actually pretty aware of the where the two are different. That's what I get for trying to post after a long day of work...

[ABED]

If it has Ian Corlette in it, it's the Saban dub of The Tree of Might.

[TheGreatness25]

There are two dubs of "Tree of Might": the edited one with dub music and Ian James Corlett as Goku and the other is Pioneer's uncut one with the Japanese music and Peter Kelamis as Goku. The Pioneer dub had its own DVD release while the edited one was part of the "Rock the Dragon" set. Truth be told, I was actually very happy to finally have the edited version of "Tree of Might" since that's the one I saw on Toonami and regardless of how faithful it is, I think that Ian Corlett's portrayal of Goku was phenomenal. I don't know why; it's just how he delivers the lines. The line in "Tree of Might" where he says, "You planted this tree on our land? Well it's gotta go!" it just sounds so powerful. As much as I like Sean Schemmel, I think that the very first choice they ever had was a slam dunk.

I guess I should have said "I couldn't tell which one it was from the short voice clips", I'm actually pretty aware of the where the two are different. That's what I get for trying to post after a long day of work...

I mean, it's fine. I'm just saying that a sure-fire way to tell is by Goku's voice and the music. If it's not Kikuchi, it's the edited Saban dub.

Thanks to you, I popped in the Saban "Tree of Might" DVD last night. How I miss those voices. They really are much better than FUNimation's later work But then you watch the Westwood stuff and it sounds terrible. I can imagine if FUNimation kept the Ocean cast and did their directing with the Ocean cast. Would've been great. Not to mention, that recycled Mega Man music wouldn't be there. Then again, I came to the party for Ian James Corlette and he was replaced anyway and I wasn't a big fan of Kelamis.

[ABED]

You mean Kai when you say later work?

[TheGreatness25]

I meant the dub for the rest of the Z series, but yeah, tack on Kai as well. Ian James Corlette, in my opinion, sounds better than any other English-speaking Goku. I like Ocean Kuririn much more than Sonny Strait. Scott McNeil's Piccolo? Come on, that's awesome. Saffron Henderson nailed Gohan (not in a sexual way) and kid Goku in a way that Nadolny NOR Clickenbeard have. I really like Brian Drummond's early Vegeta work because I feel that he had incredible delivery and sounded natural (not like he's constipated), but for a more mature Vegeta, he sounds a bit out of place to me.

But hell yeah, I think the performances by the Ocean cast, even in the mid-late 90's spanks even FUNimation's most recent Kai/movies performances. From the delivery to the natural-sounding voices, they were incredible. For a moment, I forgot how great they really were (being used to the current FUNimation cast for so long), but going back and watching the old Ocean dub of the Saiyan and Namek arcs really hit home for me just how great they were. Yeah, watching the Westwood dub of DBZ, it sounds terrible. But you know what? The music doesn't really help. On top of that, I'm convinced that they had some bad directing because comparing their later work to when they did the first two arcs is like comparing chicken shit to chicken salad.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKRjlg8kAAs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tteDn8Sn7qA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJIFjW9lVwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLEzZGosqe8


I mean take your pick. I think the Ocean dub spanks even the Kai dub and makes the Kai dub call it "Daddy."