Question to the JPN fans and Pro-JPN fans(regarding opnings)

[Theophrastus]

One Piece doesn't even do it that often. It's pretty much just opening 13 (One Day) and 14 (Fight Together) where they go out of their way to choose a "thematically appropriate" song for what's going on in that particular part of the series.

The vast majority of One Piece openings are stuff like this:
15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su8lupHl0OQ
16: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wSvrBxzX4o
17: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6qxTus6sqk
18: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaRzGrQJ5A0

And that's fine, because they fit the general atmosphere of the series, just like most Dragon Ball openings.

[theoriginalbilis]

Dragonball is not a "shiny happy people holding hands" story, despite the constant burning desire of the fanbase here to make it so.

No disrespect intended, but if you really believe the most of the members here are like that, I personally feel you are quite misconstruing a lot of these posts.

DragonBall started as a comedy/adventure geared towards adolescent boys. Along the course of it's initial run, it evolved into an action/adventure franchise geared towards adolescent boys. The primary focus is on battle, but also balances elements of fantasy, sci-fi, wuxia, comedy, and drama. Even when the series was at it's darkest and most dramatic, it never really lost sight of it's positive attitude.

At the end of the day, you can say whatever you think DragonBall "is", but I feel that my above statement sums up the series quite fittingly.

[EXBadguy]

Dragonball is not a "shiny happy people holding hands" story, despite the constant burning desire of the fanbase here to make it so.

THANK! YOU!

It isn't all about "love and friendship." We Gotta Power is not all about love and friendship. Neither is Chala Head Chala, which is more about the spirit of adventure and a carefree attitude. It's referencing things like soaring through clouds and feeling free, being excited by the aspect that you could go anywhere and do anything. That includes going off to distant lands and planets to face against intimidating foes. It mixes this with a bit of humor too. It's basically a perfect song to celebrate Goku's personality and perspective which makes it fine. The movies have some more "action" oriented songs if I remember correctly.

And that's okay, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be like that all the time. Switch some tings up.

What you are really saying is, you just think it should be this way instead of that. But neither is wrong. I just find your complaint sort of unjustified. It doesn't really need to be literally matching the tone of whatever arc you are watching. You are saying they need to be innovative? But the show's been over for like 20 years? Innovative for what, 20 years ago?

Perhaps, I wasn't being specific enough. What I'm saying is that Toei should've been more innovative like that with Kai, have the beginning opening song be a cheery "pump-up" adventurous tone, the middle two have their opening songs have a tone of danger and lives are at stake, and the last saga have a crazily comedic tone that matches Buu's attitude(though I do like "Fight it Out" so that can do for the Buu saga).

You keep bringing up One Piece, but that's One Piece's thing to do it that way. It would only be copying them if they did it now, and that wouldn't make it "innovative."

That's stupid if you ask me.

One can say that One Piece is copying DB when it comes to adventure opening songs, but that's not the whole point, what I'm trying to say is to switch things up, don't just stick to one lyrical theme or tone. Heck, Toei can only switch up some stuff for only one opening song, I don't care.

[LuckyCat]

Not to take either side, but Kai 2.0 at least changes things up with its EDs:

#1- Dear Zarathrusta -- The Z fighters prepare for the battle with Babidi
#2- Pure Heart -- The duel between Goku and Vegeta
#3- Oh Yeah!!!!!! -- The powerful and mischievous Gotenks
#4- GALAXY -- The legend of Son Goku
#5- Don't Let me Down -- The Tournaments leading to End of Z

All these ED themes musically are pretty hit and miss, but I don't think we can say Toei isn't trying to be creative or switch things up.

[Mewzard]

I understand FUNi's effrots to localize the show for the sake of marketing strategies, but I still strongly despise them for making it so cheesy to appeal to early teens who love "badass" things that make them feel matured. It destroyed Toriyama's universalistic and lighthearted tastes that can appeal to people of all ages and all genders. And I also despise people preferring such a cheesy and childish rendering over the original intentions even after growing up.

I even prefer the Westwood dub over FUNi's when it comes to DBZ because it caught the adventurous and lighthearted side of the series better at least.

Hey Kei, I'm curious, how do you feel about FUNi's Kai dub? It made quite an effort to do the series justice than the original FUNi dub (marketing or not, I feel it could have been at least as successful as the old dub while also being a great dub in the process).

As for "What the show's about" vs "Atmospheric.", I think Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles were two American shows that focused nicely on atmospheric intros (Japan actually added some voice bits to the Batman: TAS opening, but Disney later added narration to the Gargoyles OP for Season Two, so I suppose it can go either way):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjA443qGvh8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQVC2zCC5qA

[Duo]

Dragonball is not a "shiny happy people holding hands" story, despite the constant burning desire of the fanbase here to make it so.

No disrespect intended, but if you really believe the most of the members here are like that, I personally feel you are quite misconstruing a lot of these posts.

DragonBall started as a comedy/adventure geared towards adolescent boys. Along the course of it's initial run, it evolved into an action/adventure franchise geared towards adolescent boys. The primary focus is on battle, but also balances elements of fantasy, sci-fi, wuxia, comedy, and drama. Even when the series was at it's darkest and most dramatic, it never really lost sight of it's positive attitude.

At the end of the day, you can say whatever you think DragonBall "is", but I feel that my above statement sums up the series quite fittingly.

Very well said. Not sure why anybody would disagree with that.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Dragonball is not a "shiny happy people holding hands" story, despite the constant burning desire of the fanbase here to make it so.

No disrespect intended, but if you really believe the most of the members here are like that, I personally feel you are quite misconstruing a lot of these posts.

DragonBall started as a comedy/adventure geared towards adolescent boys. Along the course of it's initial run, it evolved into an action/adventure franchise geared towards adolescent boys. The primary focus is on battle, but also balances elements of fantasy, sci-fi, wuxia, comedy, and drama. Even when the series was at it's darkest and most dramatic, it never really lost sight of it's positive attitude.

At the end of the day, you can say whatever you think DragonBall "is", but I feel that my above statement sums up the series quite fittingly.

Very well said. Not sure why anybody would disagree with that.

I second that.

As for why somebody would disagree with that...I think there are some fans who insist that Dragon Ball is a dark show because they have difficulty acknowledging that they like a show that is not particularly dark (it has dark moments, but it's not a dark show), and aimed at kids. There is nothing wrong with either. I'm in my late 20's, and I unabashedly love this adventurous cartoon aimed at Japanese kids.

[Rocketman]

On the other hand, I think some people have gotten so dug into their positions of "it's for kids!" from years of dubbies claiming the show is SRS4REALS that they willfully ignore the outright brutality of the manga and attempt to paste the "super shonen" friendly friends friending friendily ~adventure~ wallpaper over it.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

On the other hand, I think some people have gotten so dug into their positions of "it's for kids!" from years of dubbies claiming the show is SRS4REALS that they willfully ignore the outright brutality of the manga and attempt to paste the "super shonen" friendly friends friending friendily ~adventure~ wallpaper over it.

I cannot imagine there not being some of that.

Here's one other trend I tend to see on this topic:

Those who understand Dragon Ball as a lighthearted series with a couple of dark streaks usually do so by looking at it in the grand scheme; even if Dragon Ball were not an inherently silly property by its own merits, there are plenty far more genuinely darker and grislier properties out there even in its own genre. To see Dragon Ball as a serious, violent series is dishonest.

Those who are drawn to (or in this case, defend the legitimacy of) Dragon Ball as a legitimately violent, occasionally foreboding series tend to take it at its word; that is to say they look at it in a vacuum, with what their immediate sensibilities at the time are telling them. This is usually dismissed as the person somehow "misreading the series", as if they didn't know any better. But here's the thing. No one, at least no one in this discussion, denies Dragon Ball's place in the grand scheme of fiction. No one is trying to make Dragon Ball darker than it actually is, for whatever reason you might suspect them of wanting to. They are merely acknowledging that there is a great deal of violence, death, and dismemberment in this series that the story acknowledges as such.

Too long, didn't read: is Gero's decapitating civilians, Broly's using Goku as a human trampoline, and so on and so forth, suddenly something you'd show your six-year old because having the Dragon Ball logo on it suddenly renders it whimsical?

[kei17]

Too long, didn't read: is Gero's decapitating civilians, Broly's using Goku as a human trampoline, and so on and so forth, suddenly something you'd show your six-year old because having the Dragon Ball logo on it suddenly renders it whimsical?

At least in the Japanese standards, any of these instances can fall into the shonen level of violence that is appropriate for people of all ages. I'd be totally okay with showing it to my little children if I had them.

To me, it still seems like you're just one of those who keep citing "extreme" instances as if they're a big deal to deny Dragon Ball's place in the grand scheme of fiction.

[Big Momma]

Too long, didn't read: is Gero's decapitating civilians, Broly's using Goku as a human trampoline, and so on and so forth, suddenly something you'd show your six-year old because having the Dragon Ball logo on it suddenly renders it whimsical?

At least in the Japanese standards, any of these instances can fall into the shonen level of violence that is appropriate for people of all ages. I'd be totally okay with showing it to my little children if I had them.

To me, it still seems like you're just one of those who keep citing "extreme" instances as if they're a big deal to deny Dragon Ball's place in the grand scheme of fiction.

To add onto that, it all goes back to context. Within Dragon Ball, as far as I'm concerned, it's presented in a less serious light than, say, a suspenseful action film. It's like Star Wars. Those films have some pretty gruesome stuff, too, and they don't try to say otherwise. However, within the context of the story and the universe it's set in, it's presented in a more age-appropriate way.

In short; Depending on context, not all decapitations are equal. I'd show my kid Dragon Ball, but I certainly wouldn't show them an ISIS decapitation.

[EXBadguy]

On the other hand, I think some people have gotten so dug into their positions of "it's for kids!" from years of dubbies claiming the show is SRS4REALS that they willfully ignore the outright brutality of the manga and attempt to paste the "super shonen" friendly friends friending friendily ~adventure~ wallpaper over it.

Too long, didn't read: is Gero's decapitating civilians, Broly's using Goku as a human trampoline, and so on and so forth, suddenly something you'd show your six-year old because having the Dragon Ball logo on it suddenly renders it whimsical?

Both of yall deserve a gold medal!

So to the people think I'm implying that Dragon Ball is a very dark anime, try again. I think Dragon Ball's in the middle, lighthearted and times but dark when shit gets real. Like I said again, it's only the tone and lyrical themes I have a problem with regarding the openings. Why does Dragon Ball has to be one of the few that doesn't get on point? One Piece has some, Bleach has some, Naruto has some, Hokuto No Ken has some(somewhat, but at least they don't sound babyish), and they're all aimed at kids. Please can somebody just answer the question?

To me, it still seems like you're just one of those who keep citing "extreme" instances as if they're a big deal to deny Dragon Ball's place in the grand scheme of fiction.

You act like there's only a few "extreme" parts, when there's clearly not. Again, I don't think Dragon Ball is very dark, but it sure as hell isn't very kid-friendly and lighthearted as some of you guys here think.

OH and tell me, why did YOUR COUNTRY'S television broadcast had to censor some stuff in Kai, hmm?

[rereboy]

At least in the Japanese standards, any of these instances can fall into the shonen level of violence that is appropriate for people of all ages. I'd be totally okay with showing it to my little children if I had them.

To me, it still seems like you're just one of those who keep citing "extreme" instances as if they're a big deal to deny Dragon Ball's place in the grand scheme of fiction.

Shonens can focus on the older end of their demographic (like Death Note, Bakuman and such), or in lower younger end of their demographic (like Beyblade or Pokemon Adventures), or have changes in tone during their running.

Dragon Ball is more like that last classification and has changes in tone, while never completely focusing on one tone.

Besides that, there's manga that is directed towards kids who are supposed to be younger than shonen demographic (Kodomomuke manga).

Dragon Ball is not a Kodomomuke manga, nor does it focus on the younger end of shonen demographic, so I don't agree with the notion that it's "for kids". Kids can enjoy it just like adults can but overall I would say it's directed more towards young teens.

And I think its undeniable that modern Dragon Ball is trying to be more focused on the younger end of shonen demographic. In the latest movie, the gang doesn't even kill Freeza's soldiers and that make a point of making that clear in the movie. So, I understand that criticism.

[ParkerAL]

You're right, not only Dragon Ball, as there's also THIS SONG that made me wanna puke when I first heard it. The only thing good about the song(and has over any of the Dragon Ball openings) were its lyrics, as it fitted the atmosphere and the events.

Catchy song. I'll add it to my playlist. I'm not a big Naruto fan, so thanks for linking to it.

[MagicBox]

Like I said again, it's only the tone and lyrical themes I have a problem with regarding the openings. Why does Dragon Ball has to be one of the few that doesn't get on point? One Piece has some, Bleach has some, Naruto has some, Hokuto No Ken has some(somewhat, but at least they don't sound babyish), and they're all aimed at kids. Please can somebody just answer the question?

People have been answering the question. I can't imagine what else you're looking for. You say that all these other shows have opening themes that "get on point," yet people have been showing you examples (in these exact same shows) of light-hearted, peppy opening themes as well. It's what modern Shōnen does. For every theme song in One Piece that's "hardcore" (or whatever it is you're looking for), there's a song like "Crazy Rainbow" that goes for a feel-good, happy vibe.

I assume you're mainly complaining about "modern" Dragon Ball, so let's look at that. The two Dragon Ball Kai openings themes and (especially) every video game opening since 1997 have been nothing but "Let's show fighting! FIGHT! Punches! Kick that guy!" Sometimes the songs are light-hearted and more generically "Shōnen" ("Dragon Soul," "Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go"), while others are far more aggressive in composition and lyrics ("Kiseki no Honō Yo Moeagare!!," "Super Survivor"). Without even getting into an argument about what the prevailing tone in Dragon Ball is, you can't deny that the songs released over (nearly) the past two decades have collectively covered the entire emotional spectrum of the show. If you can't find a single song that you believe is "on point" with this series (whether it's "happy" or "hardcore" or "dark" or whatever), then I simply don't know what to tell you.

There's never, ever going to be a "Okay, let's focus on the GENOCIDE and GORE" opening theme in a series with a protagonist like Son Goku or Luffy or Naruto. Despite the violence that Freeza causes, it's not prevalent enough to say that it decides the tone of the franchise.

As for why we occasionally get the pop idols, it's just corporate synergy. There's your reason. It's not hard. No animated series coming out of Japan is exempt from this. It's not even exclusive to Japan. Why do you think every Disney movie nowadays has a licensed pop song instead of an original theme like they used to make? It's an attempt to get as many demographics as possible into your product. One Piece, Bleach, Detective Conan, and other long-running Shōnen series have been running without a break for years and years. Dragon Ball hasn't been coming out with new animation as consistently. Maybe that gives the marketing staff at Toei the idea that they can be more "experimental" with the bands they choose. "Hmm, let's try FLOW. Okay, now let's see what kind of revenue Momoiro Clover Z can bring us." They know that longtime fans will endure a band like that because they love Dragon Ball, and they know that Momoiro Clover Z fans who would otherwise never be interested in Dragon Ball might discover the series. Dragon Ball makes enough money worldwide for Toei to be able to play around with that. Modern marketing. You've got to take the good with the bad.

I personally consider us lucky. Dragon Ball is one of the few franchises I know of (aside from... Pokémon and Digimon?) that still has theme songs composed specifically for the franchise itself. "Dragon Soul" and "Kuu-Zen-Zetsu-Go" aren't just licensed rock songs. They were written solely for Dragon Ball. If you don't enjoy any of what we've been getting over the past few decades, then I'm very sorry, but I don't know what to tell you. You might just have to be less self-conscious about watching a "babyish" show.

[TheBlackPaladin]

So to the people think I'm implying that Dragon Ball is a very dark anime, try again. I think Dragon Ball's in the middle, lighthearted and times but dark when shit gets real. Like I said again, it's only the tone and lyrical themes I have a problem with regarding the openings. Why does Dragon Ball has to be one of the few that doesn't get on point? One Piece has some, Bleach has some, Naruto has some, Hokuto No Ken has some(somewhat, but at least they don't sound babyish), and they're all aimed at kids. Please can somebody just answer the question?

Are you asking why the Dragon Ball animes didn't, on occasion, have a darker opening theme to reflect the darker time periods of the series, even if it was relatively lighthearted in the grand scheme of things?

Well, the super-literal answer is...because Toei wanted it that way, and didn't feel like spending the money to create a darker opening theme.

Personally, I'm not sure what else to say. Toei are the ones you'd have to ask to get an actual answer. Having said that, I think what a lot of us here are saying is that we don't particularly mind that, because the lighthearted opening themes reflect the overall tone of the show. Even the animes you've brought up only have some darker themes, the vast majority of them still have the "adventurous shonen, exciting, lighthearted" feel. Too many darker songs, and the mangaka and animation companies run the risk of rebranding the show and its intended demographic. Granted, that has been done successfully before with other properties, but it has also failed before, sometimes only serving to alienate the current audience and weird out any potential new audiences.

[SaiyaJedi]

I feel like some of the people who take offense to the "for kids" idea seem to blush at the notion of it being aimed at an extremely young demographic — say, Anpanman-level (3-to-5 or thereabouts) — when what we mean by "for kids" is a more all-encompassing thing (and not skewing quite that young). In my mind, I picture something like 6-to-18 years as the broader demographic, and 9-to-14 as a more targeted one. (Not that people outside that demographic can't like it, of course; otherwise, we wouldn't be here.)

Maybe it's an age thing? When I say "kids", I mean teenagers, too. (To any teens reading this: you'll understand when you're older.)

[TheBlackPaladin]

I feel like some of the people who take offense to the "for kids" idea seem to blush at the notion of it being aimed at an extremely young demographic — say, Anpanman-level (3-to-5 or thereabouts) — when what we mean by "for kids" is a more all-encompassing thing. In my mind, I picture something like 6-to-18 years as the broader demographic, and 9-to-14 as a more targeted one. (Not that people outside that demographic can't like it, of course; otherwise, we wouldn't be here.)

Maybe it's an age thing? When I say "kids", I mean teenagers, too. (To the teenagers reading this: you'll understand when you're older.)

Yeah, I agree. To use American productions as a reference, I wouldn't say Dragon Ball is for kids in the sense that Barney the Dinosaur is for kids, but rather, for kids in the sense that Star Wars is...the primary audience is kids, but it's not so light that teenagers and adults would have their intelligence insulted by watching it. It's aimed at kids, but any age group can watch it and enjoy it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Dragonball is not a "shiny happy people holding hands" story, despite the constant burning desire of the fanbase here to make it so.

Well, BoG would say otherwise, with everyone surrounding Goku holding hands

[MagicBox]

That's why I always use "family show" as my preferred term. I'm well aware that the most important demographic is children (for the precious merchandise sales they bring in), but it's a show that can (and does) appeal to everyone. The cast and crew even state in interviews that this is their intent.

Not offended or embarrassed by the "kid show" label or anything. I just think there are better ways of describing it.