Positive changes/Woolseyisms

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by johnboy1 » Sun May 10, 2015 12:38 am

VegettoEX wrote:I would argue that none of these are "positive" changes, made no positive impact on the product at the time, and should be looked at with historical scorn and general irrelevance.
"Scorn"? As in, "indignant or passionate contempt"? Isn't that a bit strong of an emotion for what is, at worst, a poor attempt at cross-cultural adaptation? I mean, Christ, I don't even look at Evolution with "scorn". I just think, "Wow, that was a really bad movie". I don't stew over it.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Fionordequester » Sun May 10, 2015 1:29 am

ABED wrote:
Vegeta: WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF MEANINGLESS!? Argh! Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful...and then, tell me what has more meaning than your own strength! I have in me the blood of a Saiyan prince. He is nothing but a joke! Yet, I've had to watch him surpass me in strength...my destiny, thrown to the wayside! He's...he's even saved my life as if I were a helpless child. He has stolen my honor. And his debts...must be paid!
While it's certainly not a bad line, by that point, Vegeta is over his past of being ruled over by Freeza, and while he's a proud Saiyan, he's never loved the other members of his race.

And while the words are a little different, the meaning of the things you mentioned are VERY similar. It's because it was closer to the original that it was better.
Eh...I disagree with you there. For one thing, as someone with my Associates in Psychology, trauma like what Vegeta describes is NOT, and I mean NOT something that goes away that easily. There are war veterans who can go 20 years, and STILL be just as haunted by what they went through as they were just a few days after the event. In fact, there can even be times where someone will seem to have gotten over something, only to slide right back into their shell-shocked state for seemingly no reason.

I mean, I pride myself on being a fairly agreeable guy, and I think you're a smart guy...but you're wrong on this one. Or at the very least, you're wrong to be so certain about what Vegeta still was and wasn't dealing with, especially given his tendency to never want to appear vulnerable. Heck, we only saw the guy for like, what, a day before he became Majin Vegeta? Who knows where he was at mentally during those 7 years that we didn't see?

And I think he did feel attachment to his race while we're at it. Yes, he is completely callous about Raditz and Nappa...but those guys were murderous villains anyway, so I don't imagine almost anyone would have been too broken up about their deaths. And if you look toward the rest of the series, he continually calls himself the Prince of all Saiyans rather than the King, he goes on and on about Saiyan pride, and he practically begs Goku to defeat Frieza, that way he would be able to say that a Saiyan defeated Frieza...

I mean, obviously Vegeta isn't the most loving person around, but it seems to me like he would have had SOME attachment to his lost people, even if only a little. Although, wait, how does he react to Tarble when he comes back? Look at his reaction there, and that might actually answer our question (I haven't watched that special).
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Kid Buu » Sun May 10, 2015 3:23 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:Tri Beam is one of my least favorite attack name changes. Aside from the fact that it in no way even tries to be even the loosest of translations, it really doesn't make any sense. What is three-sided about it? Whenever it's used on the ground, the impact is always a four-sided shape! Yeah, the way he puts his hands together *kinda* looks triangular, but even that is actually four-sided.
Funny thing is, I used to always name my Dodrio in Pokemon Red/Blue "Tien" as a kid because Dodrio had a move called Tri-Beam and Tenshinhan was the only Z-Fighter to use that move.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by MCDaveG » Sun May 10, 2015 3:45 am

KameRule wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:These examples tend to live beyond their expected lifetime and take on a new life and meaning of their own (generally not in a meme-type status like "Over 9000!", however).
I'm pretty sure that "You spoony bard!" is still, even now, a well recognised meme.

While I can't think of any positive "Woolseyisms" as such, I will say that, like the OP, I do prefer some dub names for attacks. While "Special Beam Cannon" is kind of lame, Tri-Beam and Wolf Fang Fist are some of my personal favourites. Not sure if they're strictly positive for the series though.
Aaaand it is still in the game. I had the look it up in dictionary when playing FF IV on PSP.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Sun May 10, 2015 6:48 am

In terms of something that's intentionally funny (which I think is what we're talking about), it's always laughing at it as opposed to laughing with it, unfortunately. I don't watch a lot of anime these days -- are FUNimation generally funnier (get it?) than they used to be?

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2015 7:35 am

Eh...I disagree with you there. For one thing, as someone with my Associates in Psychology, trauma like what Vegeta describes is NOT, and I mean NOT something that goes away that easily. There are war veterans who can go 20 years, and STILL be just as haunted by what they went through as they were just a few days after the event. In fact, there can even be times where someone will seem to have gotten over something, only to slide right back into their shell-shocked state for seemingly no reason.
I'm not basing this off of real psychology because it's not real. I'm basing it off of what we're presented in the series. Vegeta isn't shown as being haunted by his experiences. The only thing that bothers him is when someone is stronger than him, hence why Goku is the object of his obsession.
And I think he did feel attachment to his race while we're at it. Yes, he is completely callous about Raditz and Nappa...but those guys were murderous villains anyway, so I don't imagine almost anyone would have been too broken up about their deaths.
Vegeta wasn't callous towards Nappa and Raditz because they were bad guys. He was callous towards them because he thought they were weak. He kills Nappa unnecessarily because he considered him weak and useless and never shows a hint of remorse.

Vegeta's attachment doesn't seem to be concrete, it seems more to the idea. Bottom line, while I think they're good lines, I don't think they fit the character, and the Americans were ironically trying to make him deeper than he truly is. As changes go, it's not the worst, but I still would keep as close to the text as possible. Perhaps a few flourishes, but not change an underlying motivation even if you think it's more realistic.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun May 10, 2015 8:24 am

Fionordequester wrote:And I think he did feel attachment to his race while we're at it. Yes, he is completely callous about Raditz and Nappa...but those guys were murderous villains anyway, so I don't imagine almost anyone would have been too broken up about their deaths.
This makes me think maybe you're not quite being objective about Vegeta. Yes, Nappa and Raditz are murderous villains... but Vegeta is a bigger murderous villain than both of them put together. I doubt Vegeta wasn't broken up by Nappa's death because he felt Nappa was a murderous villain, especially given that Vegeta was the one who murdered him for not being good enough at being a murderous villain!

But I say all that to say I don't think Vegeta is suffering from shell shock. Freeza used Vegeta to do exactly what Vegeta wanted to do: kill and conquer. Vegeta's ego was just wounded because he had to be subservient to the guy, not because Freeza was forcing him to do traumatic things.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Fionordequester » Sun May 10, 2015 9:06 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:This makes me think maybe you're not quite being objective about Vegeta. Yes, Nappa and Raditz are murderous villains... but Vegeta is a bigger murderous villain than both of them put together. I doubt Vegeta wasn't broken up by Nappa's death because he felt Nappa was a murderous villain, especially given that Vegeta was the one who murdered him for not being good enough at being a murderous villain!
Eh, I don't think I'm biased here, at least not with this argument. I mean think about it, who's easier to love? Someone who is actually nice, or someone who is just as much of a murderous scumbag as you? Heck, you saw Nappa's reaction to how Vegeta wanted to use the Dragon Balls. At first he wanted to revive Raditz, but then the moment Vegeta suggests immortality instead, Nappa's just like "oh, ok, cool! I'm totally fine with doing that! Pfft, who needs that loser anyway?" So even just from that, we know that Nappa was just as callous toward his teammates as Vegeta was. Ergo, why would Vegeta have any sort of emotional connection with that sort of person?

To me, that would be like expecting Ted Bundy to have a really deep attachment to Charles Manson just because they happened to grow up together.
But I say all that to say I don't think Vegeta is suffering from shell shock. Freeza used Vegeta to do exactly what Vegeta wanted to do: kill and conquer. Vegeta's ego was just wounded because he had to be subservient to the guy, not because Freeza was forcing him to do traumatic things.
There's a difference between doing what you want, and being essentially forced into slavery. Good guy or bad guy, you're still going to be traumatized having to work for a slave master as cruel as Frieza and his men (not so much because of WHAT you do, but rather because of the things you have done TO you if you don't display absolute obedience). Ergo, "you tell me what has more meaning than your own strength?" I mean, seriously, the guy was literally reduced to tears on Namek when he failed to surpass Frieza. And that's from the same guy who wouldn't even beg for his own life when Krillin was about to kill him...

So really, I have a hard time believing that at least some of Vegeta's insecurities weren't due to all the stuff that's happened to him rather than ALL of that being his own nature. Human beings aren't that cut and dry (yes, I know he's technically a Saiyan...but honestly, they're basically human anyway, aside from some physiological differences).
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2015 9:13 am

Fionordequester wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:This makes me think maybe you're not quite being objective about Vegeta. Yes, Nappa and Raditz are murderous villains... but Vegeta is a bigger murderous villain than both of them put together. I doubt Vegeta wasn't broken up by Nappa's death because he felt Nappa was a murderous villain, especially given that Vegeta was the one who murdered him for not being good enough at being a murderous villain!
Eh, I don't think I'm biased here, at least not with this argument. I mean think about it, who's easier to love? Someone who is actually nice, or someone who is just as much of a murderous scumbag as you? Heck, you saw Nappa's reaction to how Vegeta wanted to use the Dragon Balls. At first he wanted to revive Raditz, but then the moment Vegeta suggests immortality instead, Nappa's just like "oh, ok, cool! I'm totally fine with doing that! Pfft, who needs that loser anyway?" So even just from that, we know that Nappa was just as callous toward his teammates as Vegeta was. Ergo, why would Vegeta have any sort of emotional connection with that sort of person?
But I say all that to say I don't think Vegeta is suffering from shell shock. Freeza used Vegeta to do exactly what Vegeta wanted to do: kill and conquer. Vegeta's ego was just wounded because he had to be subservient to the guy, not because Freeza was forcing him to do traumatic things.
There's a difference between doing what you want, and being essentially forced into slavery. Good guy or bad guy, you're still going to be traumatized having to work for a slave master as cruel as Freeza and his men (not so much because of WHAT you do, but rather because of the things you have done TO you if you don't display absolute obedience). Ergo, "you tell me what has more meaning than your own strength?" I mean, seriously, the guy was literally reduced to tears on Namek when he failed to surpass Freeza. And that's from the same guy who wouldn't even beg for his own life when Krillin was about to kill him...

So really, I have a hard time believing that at least some of Vegeta's insecurities were due to all the stuff that's happened to him rather than ALL of that being his own nature.
Vegeta was the one who first scoffed at the idea of reviving Raditz because he thought he was useless and weak. Nappa just agreed. He doesn't seem to have any emotional attachment to anyone, even Nappa. He was fine with Nappa only as long as he served a purpose and was helpful.

Vegeta did do what he wanted, there's nothing to suggest Vegeta didn't enjoy killing and subjugating planets. No one's arguing that in reality Vegeta wouldn't be psychologically scarred, but Toriyama doesn't go that real and deep. Vegeta kills because he enjoys it and his raison d'etre is to be the strongest. Living under someone else's thumb felt like an inconvenience, moreso than a psychologically damaging experience.

Vegeta was reduced to tears because for the first time in his life, he felt helpless. He's been defeated before, but never where he felt like all hope was lost.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "his own nature". His own nature is to do whatever it takes to be the strongest, regardless of whom he hurts.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Fionordequester » Sun May 10, 2015 9:27 am

ABED wrote:Vegeta was the one that scoffed at the idea of reviving Raditz because he thought he was useless and weak. Nappa just agreed. He doesn't seem to have any emotional attachment to anyone, even Nappa. He was fine with Nappa only as long as he served a purpose and was helpful.
Nappa didn't just "agree" out of fear or anything though. He was all for it once Vegeta mentioned the prospect of immortality! Seems to me that he wasn't really attached to Raditz so much as he just wanted another saiyan around to make things easier. I mean, suppose Vegeta was the one who got paralyzed for life, and Nappa was the one who got to choose whether Vegeta lived or died. Would Nappa have really chosen to spare Vegeta, considering all that we saw him do? I'm not sure he would have gone as far as to kill him, but I can't imagine him not just dropping Vegeta like a bad habit.
ABED wrote:Vegeta did do what he wanted, there's nothing to suggest Vegeta didn't enjoy killing and subjugating planets. No one's arguing that in reality Vegeta wouldn't be psychologically scarred, but Toriyama doesn't go that real and deep. Vegeta kills because he enjoys it and his raison d'etre is to be the strongest. Living under someone else's thumb felt like an inconvenience, moreso than a psychologically damaging experience.
So suppose this was the 1800's, back when black slavery was still a thing, and you're, say, a murderer and pillager in Africa, and you're the biggest jerk ever. You're a bad man, and one day, you get kidnapped by the colonialist slave traders. Even considering that, would you seriously consider your enslavement as only "an inconvenience"? Or would you be shell shocked at suddenly having your whole world torn out from under you, subjected to regular beatings for even the slightest hint of defiance, and always living in fear that you might one day be murdered if you ever fail to do what your master orders you to do? Because that's basically what happened to Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz.

I mean, you can be someone who loves doing horrible things to people, and yet, still be traumatized when someone else does those same things to you.
ABED wrote:Vegeta was reduced to tears because for the first time in his life, he felt helpless. He's been defeated before, but never where he felt like all hope was lost.
Eh, that's definitely part of it. But I think another part of it is that he spent his whole life trying to finally break free from Frieza's grip, only for his hopes to come crashing down around him.
ABED wrote:I'm not sure what you mean when you say "his own nature". His own nature is to do whatever it takes to be the strongest, regardless of whom he hurts.
His natural temperament of course. His personality.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Eire » Sun May 10, 2015 9:39 am

I've never quite understood USA graduation system besides my own field, but someone knowledgable in psychology should remember that transplanting mechanisms and diagnoses between cultures is highly discouraged- environment, values, religion forms us to the point when our reactions for the same stimuli varies drastically.

Vegeta is not even human to begin with- even as a small child he behaves drastically different from our expectations. He wasn't a child solider that was drugged, given arms and told to kill people before he could know better, nor American slave in Deep South forced to work in sugar cane plantation. From what we have seen from a young age he was A-OK with killing. His only problem was a fact that he was subordinate when he should be a boss and that his own people were eaten by bigger fish. Not that he let latter bother him too much.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2015 9:52 am

Fio, I'm not arguing that in real life that his experiences wouldn't have scarred him, I'm saying that there's nothing in the fictional series that shows that he was.
Because that's basically what happened to Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz.
There's nothing I can recall that suggests that any of those men were beaten.

We haven't seen enough from Nappa, but it does say something about him that his first reaction to hearing that DB's can grant any wish is to resurrect a fallen comrade. Sure, he doesn't argue the point nor seem eaten up by Vegeta's callousness, but I don't think that means he wouldn't have helped Vegeta had their roles been reversed and Goku broke Vegeta's back.

I fail to see how Vegeta's experiences with Freeza are important to why he allowed Babidi to somewhat take him over. It's far stronger to keep it on point, Vegeta hates Goku and saw a way to become stronger. Maybe we should create a new thread for this.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sun May 10, 2015 1:42 pm

Goku: You're not the first to try to rule the world with a sword of injustice. They all failed... and so will you.

*Thunder Crash*

Goku: I've come a long way, Cell.

Cell: ...so have I.

Superhero Goku, plain as day, and needless poetry, but it speaks to Cell's love of being feared, inadvertently answers King Furry's earlier call for the boy who killed King Piccolo to save the world again, and Goku gets a nigh-threat of "I know your strength has been jumping like mad over the past couple days, but you best believe I will live up to hype."
Fionordequester wrote:Aw man...I know it's not the popular opinion that the dub has anything positive about it...but nobody can think of anything? As someone who likes the dub better than the Original (though that may change someday), I personally know TONS of scenes I like better! Case in point? Goku's speech to Vegeta right before they fused into Vegetto...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeB7pkXitc4 (Japanese Version)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfSdF2fGcxo (English Version)
I do believe this is the big one. It brought the two full circle by leaving Goku the one to tell Vegeta how a Saiyan should live, by parroting back Vegeta's own language back at him- both trying to put Goku in the right while reminding us that Goku himself still lacks any attachment to his ancestors.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by bkev » Sun May 10, 2015 5:08 pm

The only one I can think of is people popcorn. It's one of those few moments that I think the Z dub captures Goku's stupidity and childish nature.
[quote="Brakus"]For all the flack that FUNimation gets on this forum for their quote about DBZ, there's some modicum of truth to it: a 9-year-old is born every day. Or in some cases, "reborn". DBZ may be a kids' show, but it's been so close to so many hearts all over Japan, America, and quite possibly, even the world.[/quote]

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Fionordequester » Sun May 10, 2015 7:56 pm

Eire wrote:I've never quite understood USA graduation system besides my own field, but someone knowledgable in psychology should remember that transplanting mechanisms and diagnoses between cultures is highly discouraged- environment, values, religion forms us to the point when our reactions for the same stimuli varies drastically.
That is true. However, in the case of Vegeta, we don't really know enough about his culture to say for sure whether there would be any drastic differences in how Saiyans should be diagnosed. All we know is that they're basically space vikings, and that many believe that Saiyans have an enhanced bloodlust for battle (which could easily be a simple myth, in the same way that some of us INSIST that white European Americans are superior to all other races).

Because of that, I don't think we really have a choice but to either make at least some assumptions by "filling in the holes" ourselves, or just throw up our hands and give up on even trying to analyze a character.
Eire wrote:Vegeta is not even human to begin with- even as a small child he behaves drastically different from our expectations...
Really? How's that? I mean, first of all, Bardock: Father of Goku isn't even canon, so you can't use anything from that movie. Dragon Ball Minus only shows Vegeta for like, one panel, and even there, all he does is say "nah, I don't feel like following orders by heading back to Planet Vegeta". So where else would we be able to see kid Vegeta?
ABED wrote:Fio, I'm not arguing that in real life that his experiences wouldn't have scarred him, I'm saying that there's nothing in the fictional series that shows that he was.
Well sure. But there's also nothing in the series that proves that Nappa was NOT a virgin. I mean, we never see the guy with a girlfriend/consort or anything like that. Does that mean he never had any interest in sex, or that he never at any point hired a prostitute or anything like that? Perhaps, but I think we both know how unlikely THAT is. We don't need to have something explicitly shown to us to reasonably assume that, yeah, Nappa was probably not someone who would have been content being a virgin for the rest of his life. We can assume that simply because of how violent conquerors like him tend to be.

In fact, speaking of Nappa, I'm not even sure how you could say that Nappa had any sort of attachment to Vegeta or anyone else if we go only by what is explicitly shown. Because again, when Nappa brings up reviving Raditz, there's no indication that he actually does care about him. For all we know, he only suggested bringing him back because it would have been convenient to have three Saiyans instead of two Saiyans in their group. I mean heck, he certainly doesn't seem sad about his death at all if their intro scene is to be believed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMDk8xCqREk

I mean, don't get me wrong, your argument that MY argument is based off of stuff that is not explicitly shown in the story itself is valid. However, aren't you also doing the same thing with Nappa?
ABED wrote:There's nothing I can recall that suggests that any of those men were beaten.
You really don't think they were though? I mean, Vegeta and Nappa, being as temperamental as they were, HAD to have done SOMETHING to enrage Frieza or one of their other superiors at some point or another during their ~20 years of servitude. And if that's the case...well, I'm pretty sure that Frieza would have given them a bit more than just a stern talking to.
ABED wrote:We haven't seen enough from Nappa, but it does say something about him that his first reaction to hearing that DB's can grant any wish is to resurrect a fallen comrade. Sure, he doesn't argue the point nor seem eaten up by Vegeta's callousness, but I don't think that means he wouldn't have helped Vegeta had their roles been reversed and Goku broke Vegeta's back.
Yeah. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's implausible. Like you said, we don't really know enough about Nappa to say whether or not he has the faintest glimmer of light in him. However, I think we definitely know Vegeta and his history well enough to at least make some pretty reasonable theories as to what he probably did and didn't experience.
ABED wrote:I fail to see how Vegeta's experiences with Freeza are important to why he allowed Babidi to somewhat take him over. It's far stronger to keep it on point, Vegeta hates Goku and saw a way to become stronger. Maybe we should create a new thread for this.
Nah. I don't think we need a new thread, as I think we're drawing to a close here. Even if I don't convince ABED and Gaffer, I'm not too interested in turning this discussion into this long, multi-day ordeal. So you don't have to worry about that :wink: !

Anyways though, Vegeta's time with Frieza, along with his upbringing as a Saiyan, is probably WHY he valued strength so much. It may have been the only way he had ANY control over his life until Frieza finally bit the dust. Getting stronger and stronger was the only way he could ever hope to finally break free from what was basically a life of slavery...

And, that draws me back to why I liked that particular speech by Majin Vegeta better in the FUNI dub than in the Japanese version. It's precisely BECAUSE Vegeta is so cut and dry there (not to mention, kind of whiny) that I dislike it compared to the FUNI version. The FUNI version just gives his character way more pathos by really making you think about what kind of life Vegeta had. Plus, it managed to make him stay completely in-character unlike that stupid speech he had in Season 3 about "not letting Frieza turn anyone else into a monster".
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2015 8:22 pm

We're not arguing the arbitrary, you're saying something is better because it's psychologically more real, and Vegeta's psychological state informs the story and his dialog far more than Nappa's sex life informs his, so your point is at best a reach.

You don't seem to have genuine views, you are making arbitrary assertions with things like "They didn't say he did, but they also didn't say he didn't." If that's the case, then there's little reason to deviate from the text. No, Nappa wasn't broken up about Raditz's death, but his first reaction to getting any wish he wants was the revival of his comrade.
You really don't think they were though?
Arbitrary assertion.

Saiyans by their nature value strength, that's not arbitrary, that's shown to be the case as Goku wasn't raised on Planet Vegeta, but he and the other Saiyans LOVED battle. Vegeta's reason for being was to become as strong as possible, to an unhealthy degree. I like that Vegeta comes across as whiny instead of having pathos, he's not in the least bit sympathetic in this instant. He's completely insecure and has allowed someone else to take him over partially just so he can end an irrational grudge. He's pathetic.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by jcogginsa » Sun May 10, 2015 8:24 pm

i think people have lost the point of the thread, which is Positive changes

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2015 8:27 pm

While it's arguably tangential, it stems from a post claiming that the dub made a positive change by having Vegeta explicitly state that his reasons for allowing Babidi to turn him into Majin Vegeta stemmed from his childhood trauma suffered at the hands of Freeza.

By the way, I vaguely recall Freeza claiming that he took a shine to Vegeta and protected him, or something to that effect.
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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sun May 10, 2015 8:34 pm

Fionordequester wrote:
ABED wrote:
Vegeta: WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF MEANINGLESS!? Argh! Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful...and then, tell me what has more meaning than your own strength! I have in me the blood of a Saiyan prince. He is nothing but a joke! Yet, I've had to watch him surpass me in strength...my destiny, thrown to the wayside! He's...he's even saved my life as if I were a helpless child. He has stolen my honor. And his debts...must be paid!
While it's certainly not a bad line, by that point, Vegeta is over his past of being ruled over by Freeza, and while he's a proud Saiyan, he's never loved the other members of his race.

And while the words are a little different, the meaning of the things you mentioned are VERY similar. It's because it was closer to the original that it was better.
Eh...I disagree with you there. For one thing, as someone with my Associates in Psychology, trauma like what Vegeta describes is NOT, and I mean NOT something that goes away that easily. There are war veterans who can go 20 years, and STILL be just as haunted by what they went through as they were just a few days after the event. In fact, there can even be times where someone will seem to have gotten over something, only to slide right back into their shell-shocked state for seemingly no reason.

I mean, I pride myself on being a fairly agreeable guy, and I think you're a smart guy...but you're wrong on this one. Or at the very least, you're wrong to be so certain about what Vegeta still was and wasn't dealing with, especially given his tendency to never want to appear vulnerable. Heck, we only saw the guy for like, what, a day before he became Majin Vegeta? Who knows where he was at mentally during those 7 years that we didn't see?

And I think he did feel attachment to his race while we're at it. Yes, he is completely callous about Raditz and Nappa...but those guys were murderous villains anyway, so I don't imagine almost anyone would have been too broken up about their deaths. And if you look toward the rest of the series, he continually calls himself the Prince of all Saiyans rather than the King, he goes on and on about Saiyan pride, and he practically begs Goku to defeat Freeza, that way he would be able to say that a Saiyan defeated Freeza...

I mean, obviously Vegeta isn't the most loving person around, but it seems to me like he would have had SOME attachment to his lost people, even if only a little. Although, wait, how does he react to Tarble when he comes back? Look at his reaction there, and that might actually answer our question (I haven't watched that special).
The only problem I have is that it would make more sense for Bardock to say something like that. He actually watched his friends and culture die the instant he realized he was being manipulated, Dadoria admitted it to him that Freeza thought they were overdue for disposal despite everything Bardock thought they did to earn Freeza's respect beyond just being perpetual peons. Where as Vegeta didn't actually see anything happen to his people and didn't even care about it, he was treated better than his own Father to Freeza who never had his respect. He doesnt even care his own son is a Super Saiyan as well nor teaches him anything about it as a peak for his race within that "handful." The only thing that mattered to him was not being the strongest in their reign of space. Which the mystery of Freeza was the constant obstacle for him. Now since, it was Goku who replaced that frustration and his life's purpose as royalty.

The way his pride was described in the dub suggests that he was a nationalist for Sayians, when he really wasn't. Hes really mad that he cant accept his embarrassment of a reject constantly besting him at such a gap no matter how hard he worked. If anything his anger should be placed at the fact Goku was the one who beat Freeza over him and he doesnt even care about its significance.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Sun May 10, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Positive changes/Woolseyisms

Post by Fionordequester » Sun May 10, 2015 8:39 pm

ABED wrote:While it's arguably tangential, it stems from a post claiming that the dub made a positive change by having Vegeta explicitly state that his reasons for allowing Babidi to turn him into Majin Vegeta stemmed from his childhood trauma suffered at the hands of Freeza.
Well...actually, I never believed that said trauma was the MAIN reason Vegeta let Babidi control him. The guy is still a selfish stinkwad at that point in time after all. I was simply stating that the speech itself was improved by pointing out some interesting things about Vegeta's past, and how strength really would have been the only thing Vegeta would have learned to value until he came to live on Earth.

I mean, people are complicated. Just because Vegeta was driven primarily by pettiness, insecurity, and selfishness, that doesn't mean there isn't room for other psychological factors to be at play there.

But, anyways, I think that's it for me, unless you want to take it to the PMs. Don't want to derail the topic after all!
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".

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