Trans/Gay/Bi-sexual villians

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What are you? I mean, you were the one who acted as if Toriyama needs defending from demands like if gay fans were picketing in front of his house

I don't want to sound as if I'm against the existance of gay characters, but these types of topics always tend to get people triggered in some way. I just don't like the new counter culture of today where people want to insert and force themselves into things they like rather than just allowing or encourage new things to be made in their consideration. Like what modern sub-cultural Feminists do. Insert =/= Invert. Characters/media aren't credited for being well written while a minority. Instead they have to be praised for being one. Thats what would have happened if Whis was outed in his creation rather than not creating the token bias.

I'm sure thats not what the poster intended, but it just came across as one of those types of things. I just don't know where this can go at this point. Either people can tolerate Gay characters or they don't. I don't see that fight happening here.

Nothing needs to be proritized and there's no huge effort here. Grown-up Bra is walking down the street with her girlfriend in DBS and a new villain attacks Earth, commence 20 episodes of fighting. The point is in hoping that gay characters in DB will exist in other forms than solely dated western (or eastern) stereotypes.

Fair enough.

Yet next to Kammesenin or Oolong there are also 'average straight Joes' like Gohan. No reason why straight characters can exist both as gag characters and normal relevant characters yet gay characters can get relegated exclusively to the former.

Well no "average" gay characters are opernly confirmed. If they revealed Zarbon was gay, would that change anything? The only character seems to be accepted as legitamently gay is when they are overexaggerated.

There's nothing that contradicts the idea of 17, Chiaotzu or Marron being gay, for example.

Well, Toriyama did say 17 is a park ranger, married, and has kids.

Marron is a little girl. By EoZ, she's prob still too young to know her orientation.

And Chiaotzu is perpetually a child, and treated as such.

= P

#17, and Tenshinhan could have very well been introverted and gay if their heterorelationships don't seem to progress anywhere relevant to their development. Especially for #17.

[ShaneisMC]

I think it's a lot like others have said, the entire concept just isn't generally of particular importance outside of humor. As far as anything else goes you could make a case of it not being "normal". And by "normal" I mean from a statistical perspective. The topic itself is a large issue brought up a lot in today's time. But as far as actual lbgt people go there really aren't a whole lot. Its what like 4% identify in America or something? I suppose "common" would be a more accurate term than normal. It really would seem more or less like some product placement/fan service/whatever you wanna call it for Toriyama to throw in a character like that. I don't see how it would particularly benefit or hurt considering the way he writes stories.

[Basaku]

Characters/media aren't credited for being well written while a minority. Instead they have to be praised for being one. Thats what would have happened if Whis was outed in his creation rather than not creating the token bias.

Sorry but who's fault is that? Minorities' that have "forced themselves in" or popular media/art/entertainment's which has been conciously excluding the minorities 99% of the time for decades? Inclusion is still making news and getting praised because it's still not even close to even vague reflection of diversity among humans.

I'm sure thats not what the poster intended, but it just came across as one of those types of things. I just don't know where this can go at this point. Either people can tolerate Gay characters or they don't. I don't see that fight happening here.

You mean the OP? He just wanted to stir the pot and take a jab at minorities that ask for inclusion in mass culture. Few hours before this thread he posted another bait topic that got deleted but since this one was a bit better veiled I guess it passed with mods so hopefully at least some good discussion can be despite troll intentions of the OP.

Well no "average" gay characters are opernly confirmed. If they revealed Zarbon was gay, would that change anything?

Of course it would change the situation as it would be openly said, just as the series is perfectly blunt and open when it comes to heterosexuality. You obviously do realize the difference here, right?

[Gyt Kaliba]

Just wanted to say first off that, while I can see how the way he put it might have been a bit 'blunt', I have to give major props to VegettoEX's stance on this matter, as well as appreciating that it seems like he's now watching this thread like a hawk. Living where I live, I am surrounded by bigotry of all kinds (racism, sexism, whatever you would call it when it's based on orientation, hell, even AGEISM) on an almost daily basis. None of it (other than occasional ageism, albeit very slight) is ever aimed at me, but it's still absolutely disgusting. I cannot wait until I have my own place so that I can even more freely speak my mind on these matters without family or others being able to really say anything about my stance, which is basically this - everyone should be able to live life the way they want so long as they're not harming anyone else. That's the bottom line for me, period.

On topic, I have to agree with the idea of having a trans character come up back when Goku was still in his pat-pat period would definitely have been an interesting way to do things. Goku being completely and utterly perplexed by them would be hilarious and be more likely be able to be played straight rather than making the character a butt of the joke per say. As has been said though, Toriyama is far from a master of doing even heterosexual romance, so...it's even less likely that he would ever be able to handle anything else with any more class.

That and, given his age, the time he's from, for all we know Toriyama himself could very possibly be against equal rights as well. I certainly hope that's not the case, but it is a distinct possibility. I kind of honestly hope it never comes up, cuz while it wouldn't make me abandon his works, it would definitely taint something a bit for me - I'm still not as fond of Ender's Game anymore ever since finding out about Orson Scott Card's views in the past.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

I only really have three thoughts about the discussion.

1. As a Christian, I find the other people claiming to share my beliefs in this thread to be terribly embarrassing and a poor representation of how we should act, and I apologize that this is the view of Christianity that gets portrayed to everyone here. Though I acknowledge that this behavior among Christians is unfortunately very common.

2. Considering that one of the last characters created for the manga was a character literally named Otokosuki (otoko=man, suki=like/love), and the major example of a homosexual character that we have is General Blue, I don't really have much faith that more characters would necessarily be handled with any subtlety or care, and would more likely be some kind of outrageous stereotype. I'd enjoy being proven wrong, however.

3. And there actually has been a point in a recent Toei show where there was a slightly progressive (for Japan) homosexual character. The 2013-2014 series Kamen Rider Gaim actually featured a character who, while being extremely stereotypically gay, was also one of the most interesting characters on the show. He always tended to skirt on this line between self-interested hero and villain, and it took a while before he consistently fought alongside the heroes. He is also one of the most competent and badass fighters, being able to beat all of the main fighters (with one exception) in an equal fight. Once certain characters started getting new powered up forms, it wasn't quite as fair, but such is power creep in a Japanese boys' action series.

[Zenkai]

I only really have three thoughts about the discussion.

1. As a Christian, I find the other people claiming to share my beliefs in this thread to be terribly embarrassing and a poor representation of how we should act, and I apologize that this is the view of Christianity that gets portrayed to everyone here. Though I acknowledge that this behavior among Christians is unfortunately very common.

Are you talking about me? If so, how was my behavior inappropriate? I was simply calling sinful behavior sinful without attacking actual people. I stated numerous times that being attracted to someone of the same sex is not sinful, but that sinful behavior, such as gay sex, is sinful.

Shouldn't Christians stand up for their faith when attacked and mocked?

Sorry VegettoEX, I'd really prefer to have this thread stay on topic, but people keep bringing the off-topic-ness back.

[DemonRin]

Anyway, DemonRin, I had no idea you were trans. Your story sounds fascinating, and I would love to talk with you about it some time.

I don't exactly advertise it, but I don't shy away from it when it becomes relevant either. Shoot me a PM sometime if you wana chat. ^_^


About the topic on hand, a lot of people seem to misunderstand what it is we're talking about here.

A Token LGBT character for the sake of being LGBT would in fact be a bad thing IMHO, I don't think anyone should force Toriyama to shoehorn one in, but I also don't think it would be out of place or impossible to naturally introduce and include one.

I mean, just imagine Bulma and Yamucha's relationship from early Dragonball, portrayed EXACTLY As it is in early Dragonball, but replace Bulma with a male character.

That's the part that I and some of the other folks in here are talking about. Gay people are still being treated as an icky wrong thing, and nobody can fathom that you can treat a Gay character EXACTLY like you would a straight character and have the character's gayness be represented in a naturally written way. Some people in their heads immediately equate "Gay" with "Weird", and therefore if you include a Gay person in your story, the weirdness MUST be pointed out and treated like a special thing, when in reality, you can just have the character act like a freaking person.

I mean, Bulma and Yamucha outright state in the start of Dragonball that their ultimate goals are to find a mate. In Bulma's case, it's a boyfriend, in Yamucha's it's a girlfriend, then they end up finding each other, and aaaw.

That's essentially the same as a straight male character saying "I like girls" all hamfisted like people are saying a gay character would be. But that's ok, a Straight character's motivation can totally be "I want a girlfriend/boyfriend" and it's not in any way weird or funny, but if you portrayed a gay character saying EXACTLY the same thing, it's SOMEHOW suddenly a hamfisted travesty....

So yeah, tl;dr:

I'm not saying I necessarily want Toriyama to do this, I in fact fear what he'd do given his track record, but it's not something that's entirely impossible or would be weird or out of place in DB.

Are you talking about me? If so, how was my behavior inappropriate?

As a person who was driven to near suicide by behavior such as yours, I would very much like to explain why your hateful rhetoric is harmful, but we're trying to veer back on topic.

[Kamiccolo9]

Anyway, DemonRin, I had no idea you were trans. Your story sounds fascinating, and I would love to talk with you about it some time.

I don't exactly advertise it, but I don't shy away from it when it becomes relevant either. Shoot me a PM sometime if you wana chat. ^_^


About the topic on hand, a lot of people seem to misunderstand what it is we're talking about here.

A Token LGBT character for the sake of being LGBT would in fact be a bad thing IMHO, I don't think anyone should force Toriyama to shoehorn one in, but I also don't think it would be out of place or impossible to naturally introduce and include one.

I mean, just imagine Bulma and Yamucha's relationship from early Dragonball, portrayed EXACTLY As it is in early Dragonball, but replace Bulma with a male character.

That's the part that I and some of the other folks in here are talking about. Gay people are still being treated as an icky wrong thing, and nobody can fathom that you can treat a Gay character EXACTLY like you would a straight character and have the character's gayness be represented in a naturally written way. Some people in their heads immediately equate "Gay" with "Weird", and therefore if you include a Gay person in your story, the weirdness MUST be pointed out and treated like a special thing, when in reality, you can just have the character act like a freaking person.

I mean, Bulma and Yamucha outright state in the start of Dragonball that their ultimate goals are to find a mate. In Bulma's case, it's a boyfriend, in Yamucha's it's a girlfriend, then they end up finding each other, and aaaw.

That's essentially the same as a straight male character saying "I like girls" all hamfisted like people are bitching a gay character would be. But that's ok, a Straight character's motivation can totally be "I want a girlfriend/boyfriend" and it's not in any way weird or funny, but if you portrayed a gay character saying EXACTLY the same thing, it's SOMEHOW suddenly a hamfisted travesty....

So yeah, tl;dr:

I'm not saying I necessarily want Toriyama to do this, I in fact fear what he'd do given his track record, but it's not something that's entirely impossible or would be weird or out of place in DB.

Well, I'd like to redirect you to my post I made earlier today, which inevitably got swamped by the chucklefuckery in this thread.

Well, I used the example of the shop/inn/whatever keeper in Frozen earlier.
Nothing in the dialogue or script says that the man is gay. He makes an offhand reference to his family at one point, and it shows his partner and children, and, and hear me out here, doesn't dwell on it. The movie just portrays a friendly man with his family, which, I think, is the most progressive way to do this.

"Progressive" in terms of sexual identity, in my opinion, shouldn't be about calling attention to it. It should be about society viewing it as normal, so there's no need to draw attention to it.

Someone please tell me I'm making sense here

Back to Dragon Ball, I don't think Toriyama has shown us that he can pull this off, and I'd rather he not try on the off-chance that he missteps, and starts some kind of fandom firestorm. Best to let the man stick to what he enjoys doing.

I think this is much better than holding a big neon sign pointing at the character that says GAY in giant flashing letters. I mean, if you're going to make it an important aspect of the character, (I keep mentioning Kamatari from Rurouni Kenshin) then that's different, but if it's just an aspect of the character that doesn't really call for fleshing out, just treat it like you would any other bit of background info. Show the character holding hands with a partner before flying off to save the day or something.

[DemonRin]

Well, I'd like to redirect you to my post I made earlier today, which inevitably got swamped by the chucklefuckery in this thread.

Yeah, lost your post in the maelstrom haha.

Well, I used the example of the shop/inn/whatever keeper in Frozen earlier.
Nothing in the dialogue or script says that the man is gay. He makes an offhand reference to his family at one point, and it shows his partner and children, and, and hear me out here, doesn't dwell on it. The movie just portrays a friendly man with his family, which, I think, is the most progressive way to do this.
[...]
I think this is much better than holding a big neon sign pointing at the character that says GAY in giant flashing letters. I mean, if you're going to make it an important aspect of the character, (I keep mentioning Kamatari from Rurouni Kenshin) then that's different, but if it's just an aspect of the character that doesn't really call for fleshing out, just treat it like you would any other bit of background info. Show the character holding hands with a partner before flying off to save the day or something.

Yeah. That's a real good way to do it. Also, like how Superman The Animated Series handled Maggie Sawyer, an out lesbian in the comics.

You could easily have a new DB Character who happens to share tenderish moments on screen with someone of the same sex, like visiting them when they're sick, or mourning a lost friend where it's implied they are together, but you never outright see them smooching and the like. Nice and subtle.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

You could easily have a new DB Character who happens to share tenderish moments on screen with someone of the same sex, like visiting them when they're sick, or mourning a lost friend where it's implied they are together, but you never outright see them smooching and the like. Nice and subtle.

Heck, Dragon Ball would be perfect for this, considering that that's pretty much all we see from the straight characters anyway!

[Puto]

Not really Dragon Ball-related, but one instance I noticed of a gay character being handled right was in the Flash TV series — the police head honcho, Captain Singh, is gay, and the only reason we even know that is because his boyfriend went to visit him at the hospital when he was hurt by a supervillain. It's never made out to be anything special or unusual. A similar thing could be possible in DB, I suppose.

[Eire]

IIRC in Big Hero 6 one male character casually mentioned that his boyfriend is into historical romance. Doctor Who also did a decent job showing several gay couples in everyday context (complaining about money, house arrangement etc.). While nobody has courage to put mainstream main characters in that position I think that's a step forward in good direction.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I only really have three thoughts about the discussion.

1. As a Christian, I find the other people claiming to share my beliefs in this thread to be terribly embarrassing and a poor representation of how we should act, and I apologize that this is the view of Christianity that gets portrayed to everyone here. Though I acknowledge that this behavior among Christians is unfortunately very common.

Are you talking about me? If so, how was my behavior inappropriate? I was simply calling sinful behavior sinful without attacking actual people. I stated numerous times that being attracted to someone of the same sex is not sinful, but that sinful behavior, such as gay sex, is sinful.

Shouldn't Christians stand up for their faith when attacked and mocked?

Sorry VegettoEX, I'd really prefer to have this thread stay on topic, but people keep bringing the off-topic-ness back.

If all you care about is sin and blasphemy according to the Bible, how come you're not complaining that a green alien is 'God' on the show, and that there are multiple gods, and that the afterlife includes a reincarnation system (and is based somewhat on Buddhist cosmology), or that no one on the show is Christian? Or how about the fact that a man named Satan is the world's hero?

If you want to object to LGBT characters based on the Bible, you have to be consistent and object to everything in the series that would be Biblically sinful or blasphemous.

It seems to me that most people who cite religious reasons to engage in gay-bashing are just using it as an excuse, because saying 'gay people are icky' wouldn't sound as good.

[Demon of Light]

IIRC in Big Hero 6 one male character casually mentioned that his boyfriend is into historical romance.

I think you're a bit confused, there was no such thing in Big Hero 6. I believe you're thinking of Paranorman, where one of the main characters indeed casually mentions his boyfriend. It's also worth noting that said character is a big, buff football player, and his mention of his boyfriend is in response to a female character inviting him to see a movie after low-key lusting over him for the entire movie.

To be honest, I could name at least three current cartoons that have LGBT characters who are portrayed very well (they're all Cartoon Network originals, incidentally), but this is completely irrelevant to Dragon Ball. There's a big difference between western culture and Japan, still, and we need to look at how Japan treats LGBT individuals in current media to get a hint of what kind of portrayal we could expect. And then you need to consider then Toriyama is a 60-year-old man, so his views on the matter might still be a little outdated and offensive. Which is why I still think having new LGBT characters in Dragon Ball is a bad idea.

[Puto]

Well, for what it's worth, Tōya and Yukito in Cardcaptor Sakura were handled pretty well. Then again, that was CLAMP.

[sailorspazz]

Well, for what it's worth, Tōya and Yukito in Cardcaptor Sakura were handled pretty well. Then again, that was CLAMP.

It's not uncommon for shoujo (and other genres aimed at women) to feature LGBT characters and portray them fairly. But in big shounen action series like Dragon Ball, the portrayals tend to be over-the-top stereotypes. I know One Piece has a few examples of examples of wacky gay men (though, to be fair, pretty much everyone in the series is wacky), not really sure if Bleach ever included any characters like that, and Naruto...well, on one of the early missions they encountered a couple characters (Zabuza & Haku) that seemed likely to be homosexual, so that's something. Not really sure about what other shounen series are big right now and if/how they portray LGBT characters. I think it would be nice if Dragon Ball could have a gay character who is just one of the guys and not shown as being "weird" for being that way, but in the culture of shounen series--not to mention Toriyama's own track record--I'm not sure it would be handled tactfully. No one is looking for, as other posters have said, a Token Gay Shoehorned in for Political Reasons. Just an LGBT person being...a person! Not a joke, or something to be feared, just a regular (super-powered ) person like everyone else.

[Kid Buu]

Wasn't Haku a transgendered person? Been a while since I read that arc. Also, Ranma 1/2 is technically a Shonen, and featured quite a bit of transgendered characters. To relate this back to Dragon Ball, if other Shonens can have trans characters, then I'm sure Dragon Ball can to if it wanted.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Wasn't Haku a transgendered person? Been a while since I read that arc. Also, Ranma 1/2 is technically a Shonen, and featured quite a bit of transgendered characters. To relate this back to Dragon Ball, if other Shonens can have trans characters, then I'm sure Dragon Ball can to if it wanted.

Haku was just a guy who looked like a girl... to a slightly greater degree than your standard bishounen, that is.

[funrush]

Having sexual diversity would be cool but I think the more pressing issue is that there's like 2 girls and none of them were really main characters except for 18 for a little bit.

Also just a suggestion but having a gay good guy could be better than a villain since it wouldn't participate in the whole "Gay=Villain" trope that shows up in a bit of older media.

Not really Dragon Ball-related, but one instance I noticed of a gay character being handled right was in the Flash TV series — the police head honcho, Captain Singh, is gay, and the only reason we even know that is because his boyfriend went to visit him at the hospital when he was hurt by a supervillain. It's never made out to be anything special or unusual. A similar thing could be possible in DB, I suppose.

I'm up for this kinda thing. I remember when DC made the original Green Lantern Alan Scott gay in the new universe it was making, and I remember thinking it was dumb how it was apparently this huuuge headline even though it wasn't really that newsworthy of a thing when you think of it.

[buutenks]

If there will be one,it will be for humor only.

The only 2 gay chars that i can remember were blue and the guy from the final dbz chapter.

Dbz is a fighting anime.So if you are expecting something romantic or anything different u will be disappointed.