Things that grind your gears

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:42 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:The time travel mechanics weren't screwed up by Cell. Trunks somehow went back to the future of HIS timeline even after he changed the past. The mechanics of time travel will never work. There's always an issue.
I don't see the problem of him going back. When he interfered with the past he split the time line and made it go back to its original one later.

What I don't get is how two separate future timelines even exist to spawn two separate altered timelines from. Some people say Cells is the original one but that wouldn't work since he'd wreck the past so much by showing up and eating 17 & 18 that there's no way the Earth would survive long enough to end up in a similar apocalyptic future.
How did he make it go back to HIS future? That's my point. Time travel is an inherently illogical idea. All this talk about time travel reminds me of this scene from Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me

Austin Powers: Basil, if I travel back to 1969 and I was frozen in 1967... presumably, I could go visit my frozen self. But if I'm still frozen in 1967... how could I have been unthawed... in the Nineties and traveled back-- Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed.

Basil Exposition: I suggest you don't worry about this sort of thing... and just enjoy yourself. (Breaking the fourth wall) That goes for you all, too.
Trunks didn't change the settings so it went back to where it came from. If he did, he would've ended up creating another timeline.

I don't know why Austin powers is relevant here, it's a comedy so it doesn't really matter if the time travel is wonky, it's not taking itself seriously the way the Cell arc is and fails at it.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Waluigiman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:37 pm

Saiyans are the only thing that matter, the animation stinks, hur di hur hur!! :lolno:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:49 am

Trunks didn't change the settings so it went back to where it came from. If he did, he would've ended up creating another timeline.

I don't know why Austin powers is relevant here, it's a comedy so it doesn't really matter if the time travel is wonky, it's not taking itself seriously the way the Cell arc is and fails at it.
It doesn't matter if it was or wasn't a comedy. Time travel logic is NEVER airtight in any story. At least not in any story that goes back in time. Don't get hung up on it. What time travel story can you think of where the logic works under severe scrutiny? Your Trunks point doesn't make a lick of sense. I never said he changed the settings so he went back to where he came from. I'm saying somehow after Trunks killed Freeza and warned Goku about the cyborgs, intentionally or not, he was able to return to HIS timeline. How?

You all haven't fixed anything in the story.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:31 am

ABED wrote:
Trunks didn't change the settings so it went back to where it came from. If he did, he would've ended up creating another timeline.

I don't know why Austin powers is relevant here, it's a comedy so it doesn't really matter if the time travel is wonky, it's not taking itself seriously the way the Cell arc is and fails at it.
It doesn't matter if it was or wasn't a comedy. Time travel logic is NEVER airtight in any story. At least not in any story that goes back in time. Don't get hung up on it. What time travel story can you think of where the logic works under severe scrutiny? Your Trunks point doesn't make a lick of sense. I never said he changed the settings so he went back to where he came from. I'm saying somehow after Trunks killed Freeza and warned Goku about the cyborgs, intentionally or not, he was able to return to HIS timeline. How?

You all haven't fixed anything in the story.
Trunks went back because the machine seemingly locks to its original time line unless someone purposefully alters the settings.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:21 am

It's a time machine, not a timeline machine. Trunks didn't know changing the past creates a different timeline.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:54 am

ABED wrote:It's a time machine, not a timeline machine. Trunks didn't know changing the past creates a different timeline.
His dialogue with the others shows otherwise:
Image
Of course, a line from Trunks earlier implies Toriyama had a more classical Terminator-style to the time travel with Trunks asking Goku not to reveal who his parents are to the others for fear of him not being born but I think you can wiggle around that. It's not like Cell's later inclusion where things flat out can't be happening the way they are.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:20 am

I don't see what bit of dialog implies that at all. Also, that scene takes place AFTER he had traveled to and from his future and discovered that changing the past had no effect. Trunks line doesn't sugges they need to wiggle around that. It just shows Trunks doesn't know how it works.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:21 am

ABED wrote:I don't see what bit of dialog implies that at all. Also, that scene takes place AFTER he had traveled to and from his future and discovered that changing the past had no effect. Trunks line doesn't sugges they need to wiggle around that. It just shows Trunks doesn't know how it works.
There's an exchange between Goku and Trunks just before he leaves where he asks Goku not to reveal Bulma and Vegeta will get together because it might mean he won't be born. That definitely implies that a potential Terminator style was in place with the page I provided above a way for Toriyama to swerve away from that and into the split time line business instead.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:52 am

All it says is he THINKS it might interfere with his birth. And there's nothing said that the time machine can be made to travel to whatever timeline they want. All it gives is a date. Toriyama didn't think it out and it wouldn't matter if he did because no timetravel story is airtight. You just have to go with them. Even Terminator's logic is wonky, yet the first two are still terrific movies. I don't think there's any reason to get hung up on this because it's not really about time travel, in either case. It's just Toriyama changing things up and a new way of giving us an antagonist.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:34 pm

This conversation is so nonsensical and it has gone for so long that I dont even know which side is everyone on.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:59 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:This conversation is so nonsensical and it has gone for so long that I dont even know which side is everyone on.
It's nonsensical because time travel is nonsensical. It's something you have to just suspend your disbelief about. I wish more people understood it.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:18 pm

ABED wrote:It's nonsensical because time travel is nonsensical. It's something you have to just suspend your disbelief about. I wish more people understood it.
It's true that time travel is a fantasy concept. We have no idea how it would work if it did work in real life, so the methods employed in fiction are varied from work to work. And, yes, you have to occasionally let things slide, and the occasional time travel kerfuffle is not going to ruin a good story.

But like any fantasy concept, what sells it as believable isn't the ability to make it completely realistic but rather than ability to make it internally consistent. While erkolo2 and I were discussing the very finer points of the mechanics of time travel, most of Dragon Ball's time travel problems don't come down to that. They're simple problems and plot holes that are a result of Toriyama's inattention to detail as well as how much the story changed as it went while using time travel as a convenient excuse to introduce new things.

But, yeah, Cell traveling back to a year before Trunks warned the heroes of the Artificial Humans doesn't make any sense, because Trunks set the date, and there's no reason he'd travel back to a year before anybody knew who he or Artificial Humans are. While that's a problem tied in to time travel and perhaps obfuscated by its nonlinear nature, it's not a problem caused by "time travel being nonsensical." It's a simple problem of common sense. Likewise, Cell implying that Trunks was present for the battle with Mecha Freeza in his timeline is also a plot hole. Again, because it's tied into time travel, it makes it more confusing to suss out. But it's a not a problem BECAUSE of time travel. Trunks had already told Goku that Goku had defeated Mecha Freeza, so that's just a plot hole.

I get where you're coming from. It's almost impossible, if not entirely impossible, to be entirely perfect with time travel. And you have the benefit of being able say, "Well, it's not real, so who's to say this isn't right?" But that doesn't make it a "get out of jail free" card that allows you to overlook any inconsistency that would otherwise be legitimate to point out.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:23 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ABED wrote:It's nonsensical because time travel is nonsensical. It's something you have to just suspend your disbelief about. I wish more people understood it.
It's true that time travel is a fantasy concept. We have no idea how it would work if it did work in real life, so the methods employed in fiction are varied from work to work. And, yes, you have to occasionally let things slide, and the occasional time travel kerfuffle is not going to ruin a good story.

But like any fantasy concept, what sells it as believable isn't the ability to make it completely realistic but rather than ability to make it internally consistent. While erkolo2 and I were discussing the very finer points of the mechanics of time travel, most of Dragon Ball's time travel problems don't come down to that. They're simple problems and plot holes that are a result of Toriyama's inattention to detail as well as how much the story changed as it went while using time travel as a convenient excuse to introduce new things.

But, yeah, Cell traveling back to a year before Trunks warned the heroes of the Artificial Humans doesn't make any sense, because Trunks set the date, and there's no reason he'd travel back to a year before anybody knew who he or Artificial Humans are. While that's a problem tied in to time travel and perhaps obfuscated by its nonlinear nature, it's not a problem caused by "time travel being nonsensical." It's a simple problem of common sense. Likewise, Cell implying that Trunks was present for the battle with Mecha Freeza in his timeline is also a plot hole. Again, because it's tied into time travel, it makes it more confusing to suss out. But it's a not a problem BECAUSE of time travel. Trunks had already told Goku that Goku had defeated Mecha Freeza, so that's just a plot hole.

I get where you're coming from. It's almost impossible, if not entirely impossible, to be entirely perfect with time travel. And you have the benefit of being able say, "Well, it's not real, so who's to say this isn't right?" But that doesn't make it a "get out of jail free" card that allows you to overlook inconsistencies that would otherwise be legitimate things to point out.
There is no way to make it internally consistent due to the inherent nature of going back in time. The plot holes are there in every time travel story. It doesn't make sense, but that doesn't stop Back to the Future from being a classic.

I do see your point partially, but did Trunks in fact set the date? I know Cell needed a few years to become full grown after going larval again.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:47 pm

ABED wrote:There is no way to make it internally consistent due to the inherent nature of going back in time. The plot holes are there in every time travel story. It doesn't make sense, but that doesn't stop Back to the Future from being a classic.

I do see your point partially, but did Trunks in fact set the date? I know Cell needed a few years to become full grown after going larval again.
I'd say Back to the Future is largely internally consistent. Can you find problems? Sure. I used to frequent a BTTF message board. But they are so far buried in most cases you'd really have to dig to even notice, and by that point, I'd say it has become overly nitpicky.

Cell says that Trunks set the date. That all he did was hop in and go where it was set. So, unless setting the time machine is like setting a digital clock, and Trunks hadn't scrolled to the right number yet, or Cell or Trunks bumped the switch in their scuffle, Trunks deliberately set it for that time. And if you're advocating for either of those, it's getting so far into the realm of fanon speculation and rationalization, I can't imagine that anyone would honestly believe that was the story's intention. But I should also add having the time machine set for four years ago leads to another problem. Cell says it takes three years for him to go from egg to adult. When Trunks examines the time machine, he says it's been here for four years. So what did Cell do with that extra year? His molt is fresh enough to be wet when Trunks finds it, and he was an egg when he arrived, so where does that extra year go? Again, these aren't problems with the mechanics of time travel. It's a simple lack of narrative consistency.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:42 pm

They aren't buried. It's the classic grandfather paradox. You can't go back in time to stop your own existence. If you stop it, then you don't exist and can't go back in time to prevent it.

It's been a while, but I think wasn't it a year for the egg to hatch and then 3 for him to become full grown? Good point about Trunks going back before Freeza, but the mechanics of time travel don't bother me, except for the closed loop theory, but that's a whole other discussion.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:49 pm

ABED wrote:They aren't buried. It's the classic grandfather paradox. You can't go back in time to stop your own existence. If you stop it, then you don't exist and can't go back in time to prevent it.

It's been a while, but I think wasn't it a year for the egg to hatch and then 3 for him to become full grown? Good point about Trunks going back before Freeza, but the mechanics of time travel don't bother me, except for the closed loop theory, but that's a whole other discussion.
To my knowledge, there's no dialogue concerning the egg, Cell just says he got here 3 years ago but Trunks says 4 just a couple chapters earlier. I don't think the anime even corrects this.

What's this loop theory BTW?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:52 pm

ABED wrote:They aren't buried. It's the classic grandfather paradox. You can't go back in time to stop your own existence. If you stop it, then you don't exist and can't go back in time to prevent it.

It's been a while, but I think wasn't it a year for the egg to hatch and then 3 for him to become full grown?
Since it never actually comes to pass, I don't see how that could be considered a problem. Marty never ceases to exist; therefore, a paradox doesn't occur. And that works just fine in the context of the first film alone. If you add the context of the second film, where Doc theorizes that creating a paradox would be so impossible that the galaxy (or universe) would end up destroying itself, it goes even further to cement a self-consistent repercussion for such an action. You could surmise the same thing would have happened in the first film had Marty actually ceased to exist, which doesn't even invalidate the stated stakes of the first film, since, if his galaxy is destroyed, Marty very well would have erased his own existence through his actions. Time travel is like light speed-capable spacecraft. Traveling the speed of light is impossible because the math doesn't work. Some theorize that time travel isn't possible simply because it presents the possibility of a paradox, which is impossible. If you accept that, then, yes, you have to bend your brain just to suspend disbelief. But once you get over that hurdle, that you have time travel, then you address what happens when the impossible is possible. And Back to the Future does just that.

And, no, there is no distinction for the egg. Cell simply says three years to grow, and that's it.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:05 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:They aren't buried. It's the classic grandfather paradox. You can't go back in time to stop your own existence. If you stop it, then you don't exist and can't go back in time to prevent it.

It's been a while, but I think wasn't it a year for the egg to hatch and then 3 for him to become full grown? Good point about Trunks going back before Freeza, but the mechanics of time travel don't bother me, except for the closed loop theory, but that's a whole other discussion.
To my knowledge, there's no dialogue concerning the egg, Cell just says he got here 3 years ago but Trunks says 4 just a couple chapters earlier. I don't think the anime even corrects this.

What's this loop theory BTW?
I'll take your word about the egg.

From Wikipedia: "a sequence of events (actions, information, objects, people) in which an event is among the causes of another event, which in turn is among the causes of the first-mentioned event."
I don't know how to put that in my own words. As best I understand it, an example would be The Terminator where John Connor's father was always Kyle Reese. Reese always came back in time to save Sarah Connor and tell her future was to prepare her son for the war against Skynet, who then would send his father back in time to protect his mother and impregnate her.

Another example is in Supernatural, it was always Dean who went back in time and convinced his father to buy the 67 Impala.

Gaffer, if you go with that theory, there's no tension. All Doc does is posits a theory, one you don't need for the story to work. Marty goes back in time and almost prevents himself from existing. If Doc was right, why would Marty begin fading out of existence? Time travel is just a plot mechanism for most stories. They are rarely about the science and I find that those that do harp on the science are worse off for it. BTTF isn't really a sci-fi movie. The heart of the story isn't about traveling through time, it's Marty meeting his parents and seeing the kind of people they were and how similar or different they were to who they become and to himself. That's an emotion we can all relate to. The plot mechanics don't really matter beyond needing a vehicle (this case literally) to get the protagonist to the past. In DB's case, it's to bring an antagonist from somewhere new. We've had demons, assassins, armies, and aliens, and now we have time traveling genetically engineered monsters.

A better example is Looper. Spoilers, Joe does kill himself. Doesn't stop it from being an entertaining movie.

I'd have to go back and watch/read DB to say any more about the egg. I don't remember the specifics. If you're right, that's lazy writing, but beyond that, the nitpicky stuff about time travel grinds my gears because it's pure fantasy and getting hung up on it and claiming something that's inherently wonky is bad writing is silly to me.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:09 pm

I mean, I can get behind time travel weirdness depending on what we're talking about. Like you said, Terminator and BTTF don't bother me, mostly because the story does a good job of investing me to where I don't care about the wonkiness. The Cell arc doesn't really do this for me, every time I think I might get into it something stupid happens and I'm right back out, rolling my eyes.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:12 pm

My biggest beef with it went away when I finally understood DB isn't a superhero story. They weren't trying to save the world. They let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs because they wanted a fight. It's so weird that it took me 20 years to realize it when it wasn't hidden. Some of that is the dub and a lot of that is my ignorance of genres foreign to western culture.
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