Things that grind your gears

[ulisa]

If he wants to tell me Goku is a bad husband to Chi-Chi and doesn't even see her in the same extent as one usually would with a wife, then he should show it in the story and not say it in an interview. And if his story is done and he can't go back in change it... well, then I'll continue to interpret the story outside of that interview. (although in this case, I think he has shown that in the story to some extents).
.

That's just it though, it doesn't really contradict it. Goku's commitment to family life has always been on the iffy side, and it's something that has been pretty evident in the manga. It just wasn't in your face at all times because the author just didn't care to focus on that.

This is what I mean. The author introduces a concept people are unhappy or uncomfortable with and look for ways to discredit it. Not saying this isn't worth the discussion: Toriyama is forgetful, he has changed his mind on a few things, what exactly does a bad husband/father mean here, and what role did the anime play in creating this image of Goku as an lovable,loving klutz instead of a good-natured but ultimately crass man-child.

You're right. That's why I said that he has shown this to some extent in the main series though. But there are a few other examples where his answers during interviews seem to contradict what was shown in the writing. I merely used Goku's relationship to his family as more of an example to use as a springboard.

I think that’s also one of those things that is open to interpretation too. What makes a good father/friend etc is something that is widely varied! In some cultures, Goku simply having a strong Papa Wolf instinct is all that would be required to make him a good parent but he seems to have more to it than just that. Is Goku gonna win Father Of the Year? No. However, there do seem to be instances in the beginning of Z particularly where you could interpret it either way. I’ve never seen Goku as a terrible father though not the greatest one either. I will admit though that the anime especially the filler episode do tend to add more to his character than the manga. Though, I don’t necessarily view that as a bad thing. I enjoy Manga-Goku and Anime-Goku.

On the topic at hand though, one thing I think authors in general have to be aware of is that unless you state something completely factually in your work, people are always going to make their own conclusions based on what they read and interpret that work to mean. No one is going to necessarily get the same view. So, that’s why authors making statements after a work is done tends to bother me. If it’s that important, it should be presented as such in the work itself. Sometimes Toriyama is good at this, sometimes not so much.

[ABED]

So, that’s why authors making statements after a work is done tends to bother me. If it’s that important, it should be presented as such in the work itself.

Sometimes viewers miss things. That's why I find statements such as "it shoul be in the work itself" a tad reductive.

[ulisa]

So, that’s why authors making statements after a work is done tends to bother me. If it’s that important, it should be presented as such in the work itself.

Sometimes viewers miss things. That's why I find statements such as "it shoul be in the work itself" a tad reductive.

True enough. It’s not one of those things that make me completely livid but more of a “Oh, well, why wasn’t this brought up in X chapter?” Sometimes, I do go back, re-read and find I missed something, while other times, even if I’m looking for it, I still can’t see it.

[GamerSkull]

So, that’s why authors making statements after a work is done tends to bother me. If it’s that important, it should be presented as such in the work itself.

Sometimes viewers miss things. That's why I find statements such as "it shoul be in the work itself" a tad reductive.

Small things that we may miss is fine. It's when something directly seems like a retcon or a "change" that this becomes a problem.

Stuff like "Goku views his family as a bit different than normal" is not the same as contradictory information. That's why I'm fine with that one in particular, I guess... although I still disagree with it on some level.

And while Toriyama doesn't do this tooooo much... it does happen all the time when it comes to fiction and authors.

[ekrolo2]

So, that’s why authors making statements after a work is done tends to bother me. If it’s that important, it should be presented as such in the work itself.

Sometimes viewers miss things. That's why I find statements such as "it shoul be in the work itself" a tad reductive.

Small things that we may miss is fine. It's when something directly seems like a retcon or a "change" that this becomes a problem.

Stuff like "Goku views his family as a bit different than normal" is not the same as contradictory information. That's why I'm fine with that one in particular, I guess... although I still disagree with it on some level.

And while Toriyama doesn't do this tooooo much... it does happen all the time when it comes to fiction and authors.

Goku having a weird view on his family in that he doesn't really prioritize them much isn't that weird, it fits with the material. Toriyama saying that Freeza knows what a fucking Super Saiyan God is and apparently always did is what irks me, because why the hell does he never eeeevvvveeerrrr talk about it on Namek? Even to himself when he's mussing about Super Saiyan's? Why does he not use it to mock Vegeta or Goku? Hell, Freeza doesn't even acknowledge it in Super! There's no moment in F or the ToP where Freeza hears or sees SSGod and mentions "Oh great, THAT monkey legend was true too...."

[GamerSkull]

Sometimes viewers miss things. That's why I find statements such as "it shoul be in the work itself" a tad reductive.

Small things that we may miss is fine. It's when something directly seems like a retcon or a "change" that this becomes a problem.

Stuff like "Goku views his family as a bit different than normal" is not the same as contradictory information. That's why I'm fine with that one in particular, I guess... although I still disagree with it on some level.

And while Toriyama doesn't do this tooooo much... it does happen all the time when it comes to fiction and authors.

Goku having a weird view on his family in that he doesn't really prioritize them much isn't that weird, it fits with the material. Toriyama saying that Freeza knows what a fucking Super Saiyan God is and apparently always did is what irks me, because why the hell does he never eeeevvvveeerrrr talk about it on Namek? Even to himself when he's mussing about Super Saiyan's? Why does he not use it to mock Vegeta or Goku? Hell, Freeza doesn't even acknowledge it in Super! There's no moment in F or the ToP where Freeza hears or sees SSGod and mentions "Oh great, THAT monkey legend was true too...."

I agree with that. It's like Vegeta having that Beerus flashback from when he was a child watching his father getting picked on. Why did Vegeta never mention this in the main series? Granted, that is just a retcon and implemented within the series but... it's continuity problems like that that really irk me. In fact, it's by far my biggest issue with Dragon Ball Super.

You could argue that it's just because it never came up but... it still feels off to me. I know the series is made up as it goes along but sometimes it just gets to be too much for me.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

I agree with that. It's like Vegeta having that Beerus flashback from when he was a child watching his father getting picked on. Why did Vegeta never mention this in the main series? Granted, that is just a retcon and implemented within the series but... it's continuity problems like that that really irk me. In fact, it's by far my biggest issue with Dragon Ball Super.

You could argue that it's just because it never came up but... it still feels off to me. I know the series is made up as it goes along but sometimes it just gets to be too much for me.

I don't see a problem here because it doesn't contradict anything prior, while it can be weird why he never brough that up before still:

Inserting something that flat out contradicts something within the work =/= Inserting something that's questionable/weird within the work but doesn't flat out contradict what's shown.

[ABED]

I agree with that. It's like Vegeta having that Beerus flashback from when he was a child watching his father getting picked on. Why did Vegeta never mention this in the main series? Granted, that is just a retcon and implemented within the series but... it's continuity problems like that that really irk me. In fact, it's by far my biggest issue with Dragon Ball Super.

You could argue that it's just because it never came up but... it still feels off to me. I know the series is made up as it goes along but sometimes it just gets to be too much for me.

I don't see a problem here because it doesn't contradict anything prior, while it can be weird why he never brough that up before still:

Inserting something that flat out contradicts something within the work =/= Inserting something that's questionable/weird within the work but doesn't flat out contradict what's shown.

I agree. I get what you guys were getting at, but it doesn't bother me as much as a flat out contradiction.

[GamerSkull]

I agree with that. It's like Vegeta having that Beerus flashback from when he was a child watching his father getting picked on. Why did Vegeta never mention this in the main series? Granted, that is just a retcon and implemented within the series but... it's continuity problems like that that really irk me. In fact, it's by far my biggest issue with Dragon Ball Super.

You could argue that it's just because it never came up but... it still feels off to me. I know the series is made up as it goes along but sometimes it just gets to be too much for me.

I don't see a problem here because it doesn't contradict anything prior, while it can be weird why he never brough that up before still:

Inserting something that flat out contradicts something within the work =/= Inserting something that's questionable/weird within the work but doesn't flat out contradict what's shown.

Agreed. Those are just nitpicks that bother me. They just add up sometimes and I feel the need to vent.

But real contradictions do bother me immensely. I'm not too big of a fan when it comes to Super but I can say that it's enjoyable enough despite some questionable decisions.

[ProtoTrunks76]

This personally bugs me every time I sit through the later half of the Ocean dub, but...

I just find that stock explosion sound effect when characters power up or transform to utterly annoying, due to it trying to be edgy. Not only is it seriously not needed, but it really does sound like a stock sound effect that they just took from something. Hell, sometimes, it's used multiple times in the same scene (like Gohan powering up against Cell for instance, where it's used four times in the same scene).

[GamerSkull]

This might be a bit of fanboyism but:

I don't particularly like when the dubs go out of their way to change the dialogue to make fun of another character (namely: Yamcha).

This has happened in the DBS dub and it seems to be there in the FighterZ dub as well.

Now, this might be okay for others and that's cool but I want to be able to escape the meme in OFFICIAL material at the very least. I guess the baseball episode can pass since that's probably just a one-time thing (although the death pose at the end was a bit excessive imo).

And if we're gonna be more broad about it: I dislike unnecessary dub changes. Nothing wrong with the voices but they should still be as close as possible unless there is a language barrier that cannot be translated.

[Michsi]

I sort of remember a quote from another user here that perfectly sums up Goku's parentage: he's got a good papa wolf instinct where he'll go to hell and back to save his family or help them in a bind but he's next to useless for anything besides that. He definitely doesn't help them study, he only has a job because Chi-Chi nags him about it and probably wouldn't even know what year or school his kids went/are going to.

Yup, that sounds right to me.

You're right. That's why I said that he has shown this to some extent in the main series though. But there are a few other examples where his answers during interviews seem to contradict what was shown in the writing. I merely used Goku's relationship to his family as more of an example to use as a springboard.

I see. This particular case is usually what people mean when they say Toriyama doesn't pay attention to his previous work and use that to undermine his answers. The whole 'Piccolo best dad/Goku is not a real father' thing has gotten so heated it's ridiculous.

On the topic at hand though, one thing I think authors in general have to be aware of is that unless you state something completely factually in your work, people are always going to make their own conclusions based on what they read and interpret that work to mean. No one is going to necessarily get the same view. So, that’s why authors making statements after a work is done tends to bother me. If it’s that important, it should be presented as such in the work itself. Sometimes Toriyama is good at this, sometimes not so much.

Problem is, it's usually about stuff the author never bothered or even wanted to cover. He once explained what it was that drew #18 to Krillin in an interview, but then immediately said that he would never draw it due to his aversion to romance or something, and that he would leave such a thing to the anime to expand upon. These interview answers generally feature trivia.

[Freeza9000]

Have I mentioned just how much of a brainless clusterfuck of a fanbase the DB Fandom can be at times?

[Dbzfan94]

Have I mentioned just how much of a brainless clusterfuck of a fanbase the DB Fandom can be at times?

Not to mention sheep.

[King13s]

The creator has spoken, and that is God telling you how the world works.

Death of the Author. It's a legitimate thing in literature and writing.

Oh, I love that thought process. Viewing the artist simply as a vehicle for their creation to take life and form. Once it exists the art is akin to a child and it's creator a parent. The parent may say one thing but the friends of the child - the fans - know the truth better.

It allows for debate of meaning beyond actual intent. To that I say, fair enough. Just understand that is only one perspective of interpretation.

One argument in DBZ that sees no end is the origin of the Super Saiyan.

Externally, we know this to be Toriyama not wanting to ink more black, and denote a rapid shift in tone as well as power. A writing tool as a power up, which is genius in it's own regard.

Internally, we can speculate many things. Artistically could this golden form be based on Sun Wukong being traditionally depicted as having golden hair? Does it have to do with yellow or golden chi? Why does the form bring on such a shift in tone and personality, especially when you get into Super Saiyan 2 and beyond?

My only issue with this at times is that the former is an answer. Maybe not as glamorous and insightful as latter, but still it is an answer. Unlike older poems, novels, movies, and any art where documents of the artist's intent does not exist, for a lot of modern creations we have listed intent and logic.

Again though, your manner of dissection is still legit, and can be fun.

[GamerSkull]

Another thing that grinds my gears...

Certain parts of the fanbase considering characters to be worthless if they don't have a high power level/strength or never get as much accomplished.(People like Krillin, Android 16, etc.)

[ABED]

the fans - know the truth better.

That's a perspective I wholeheartedly disagree with.

[ekrolo2]

the fans - know the truth better.

That's a perspective I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Amazing how fanbases mistake knowing trivia and facts better than the author as being better then him at everything.

[TheGreatness25]

Another thing that grinds my gears...

Certain parts of the fanbase considering characters to be worthless if they don't have a high power level/strength or never get as much accomplished.(People like Krillin, Android 16, etc.)

I agree. But to be fair, that's how they're portrayed in the series. Kurilin retires, suddenly he's barely relevant. Yamucha gives up fighting and is reduced to literally standing in the background. Same with Tenshinhan. I don't know how Super handles these characters, but toward the end of Z, anyone who isn't a big time fighter, is pretty much left standing around waiting to be killed.

[ekrolo2]

How Makankosappo can't have a translated name that isn't either awkward as hell or sounds like it could fit any generic ki blast in the series.