Things that grind your gears

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Grimlock
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:16 pm

If Heroes anime had come out a few years ago, one thing that would grind my gear is how people who don't know anything about Heroes come to its respective threads and say nonsensical things when everything you need to know for understanding is right in front of people's face. They ignore information that have been released but still dare to ask questions when their answers were already revealed in damn characters biographies.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:34 pm

Grimlock wrote:If Heroes anime had come out a few years ago, one thing that would grind my gear is how people who don't know anything about Heroes come to its respective threads and say nonsensical things when everything you need to know for understanding is right in front of people's face. They ignore information that have been released but still dare to ask questions when their answers were already revealed in damn characters biographies.
It's not like I should need to read the biographies or playing the video games to enjoy a show, but there is only so much you can say in the span of 6 minutes lol
IMHO the bare minimum would be to not exclusively do exposition after exposition after exposition, I like to see correlations, even GT which I despise had that lol
I mean I don't even care that much about it but it comes across rather odd when someone says it has amazing plot and story even though any opinion is legit one way or another cheers lol

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by coola » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:44 pm

Actually, thanks to Kai inconsistency, we dont know if Pikkon part is canon or not(Other World part appeared in last episode of original Kai, and then that BS part with Hell in Buu Saga Kai)
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:47 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:It's not like I should need to read the biographies or playing the video games to enjoy a show,
Maybe not to enjoy, but to understand, yes you need. Some works are only understandable if you see it in its full context, which may depend on other kind of medias.

One example is Transformers. The Aligned Continuity is composed of two video-games (Transformers: War for Cybertron and Transformers: Fall of Cybertron), HQ's and the animated series Transformers: Prime and Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015).

If you focus only in the animated series, you won't understand what's really going on. You have to read the HQs, you have to play the video-games.

It is the case with Heroes. Yes! In order to watch the anime, you need at least to have an understanding of the arcade game, you have to know what is going on there. You can't expect a promotional anime based on the arcade to give you everything, otherwise all your complaints are empty. You have to read the manga for a more context, you even have to play Xenoverse 2 because Fu's abilities that he displays in that game will help you understand the anime.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:19 pm

That's bad writing if your story depends on either medium for the audience to understand it.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:40 pm

I can simply watch Iron Man 3, skip whatever else I want, and then go straight into Avengers: Infinity War. I'll understand everything. I can watch the Star Wars animated series and just one or two movies, it is enough for a full understanding. Oh, I can even watch Movie 14 and Movie 15 and don't read the manga at all, I'll still understand what's going on in Dragon Ball just through those two movies.

Those are all example of "bad writing" too.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:02 pm

Grimlock wrote:I can simply watch Iron Man 3, skip whatever else I want, and then go straight into Avengers: Infinity War. I'll understand everything. I can watch the Star Wars animated series and just one or two movies, it is enough for a full understanding. Oh, I can even watch Movie 14 and Movie 15 and don't read the manga at all, I'll still understand what's going on in Dragon Ball just through those two movies.

Those are all example of "bad writing" too.
Iron Man 3 doesn't have much if any discernible impact on IW. It's not all one big story, despite what some will say. And stories aren't meant to be just understood. DB's such a simple story you can jump in the middle and catch up quickly, but you won't emotionally invest because you haven't experienced the story.

And no need to put quotes. It is bad writing if your story is dependent on an entirely different medium, a video game at that, the audience won't have the full context.

This is much more akin to Darth Maul showing up in Solo.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by FortuneSSJ » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:02 pm

"Caulifla/Kale ruined Super Saiyan."
Pretty sure Goten/kid Trunks did it before them.

"Ugh, but they are Goku/Vegeta sons."
Cut the crap. So are Gohan and FT Trunks.

"The power scaling in Super doesn't make sense."

Saiyan arc: 4 years old Gohan gets angry and becomes stronger than anyone ever did in DB.
Freeza arc: Goku's power level goes from roughly 21k in the Saiyan arc to 180k against Ginyu and he beats Freeza 100% Final Form, when his second form had a power level of 1 million. "Zenkai" is not enough to describe these power jumps...
Cell arc: An old man living in a cave built androids/cyborgs stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza using Earth technology.
Buu arc: Goten and Trunks can't even use SSJ2 - Gotenks uses SSJ3 and overpowers Super Buu. SSJ3 Goku can't keep up with Buutenks - Base Vegetto overpowers Buuhan.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:20 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:...
While I disagree with the statements (aside power scaling but whatever) grinding your gears, I also disagree with your counterarguments lol

- Gohan's hidden power is mostly what made him so popular, plus at that time he couldn't do it consciously and it only lasted a few seconds,
- To be able to beat Freeza Goku needed to become SSJ which brought him to a complete other level (yes there is questionable zenkais in that arc but whatever)
- So? Technology has always been very advanced in DB,
- Gotenks can do SSJ3 for only 5 minutes and they benefit from the Fusion power up

To be honest you don't need to criticize the original work to defend Super, it has plenty enough qualities of its own IMO lol

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by sintzu » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:22 pm

coola wrote:Actually, thanks to Kai inconsistency, we don't know if Pikkon part is canon or not.
Does it matter ? It just tells the viewers that Goku had more adventures in the afterlife which had no impact on the overall story.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Forte224 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:34 pm

I don't see how Z's shortcomings are supposed to make me pass over Super's. And Super's power scaling is way, way more out of whack than Z which is an accomplishment. One episode SSB KKX10 Goku can't even lay a hand on Jiren. Another episode he can keep up with Jiren. One moment Goku says he's spent, the next moment he's back at SSB, presumably full power. Same with Vegeta after defeating Toppo. One moment Trunks and Vegeta just barely hold back Fused Zamasu's blast, the next moment Goku does it all by himself.

It's the moment to moment issues that make things annoyingly inconsistent. Z wasn't perfect, but it also didn't constantly contradict itself in each episode. It's the degree of absurdity in Super that bugs me.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:27 pm

Forte224 wrote:Same with Vegeta after defeating Toppo.
Vegeta never said he was out of power after defeating Toppo. That was Beerus, the same guy who claimed he could kill someone across timelines. All Vegeta said was he wasn't dead.

And as bad as Super can be sometimes, it doesn't have anything on the level of Gohan going SS2 at the end of one episode, the inexplicably going back to SS1 and having to be pushed to transform again the next episode.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Forte224 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:44 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Forte224 wrote:Same with Vegeta after defeating Toppo.
Vegeta never said he was out of power after defeating Toppo. That was Beerus, the same guy who claimed he could kill someone across timelines. All Vegeta said was he wasn't dead.

And as bad as Super can be sometimes, it doesn't have anything on the level of Gohan going SS2 at the end of one episode, the inexplicably going back to SS1 and having to be pushed to transform again the next episode.
Dragon Ball isn't a deep show. If Beerus, A.K.A. the peanut gallery said he was out of power, then he was out of power. They're there for exposition. When Vegeta started fighting again, Beerus didn't go "Oh snap sorry guys I was wrong lol". Bringing up him being wrong about the timelines is inconsequential to these points.

And, as regards Gohan going SS2 twice, I don't know what happened on the production side of that, but in the manga he goes SS2 only once. He doesn't transform, de-transform, and then need another rage boost. It's more like the show gave us 2 versions of it. Strange, but plot wise he didn't rage boost to SS2 twice. It was only once.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:38 pm

Forte224 wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Forte224 wrote:Same with Vegeta after defeating Toppo.
Vegeta never said he was out of power after defeating Toppo. That was Beerus, the same guy who claimed he could kill someone across timelines. All Vegeta said was he wasn't dead.

And as bad as Super can be sometimes, it doesn't have anything on the level of Gohan going SS2 at the end of one episode, the inexplicably going back to SS1 and having to be pushed to transform again the next episode.
Dragon Ball isn't a deep show. If Beerus, A.K.A. the peanut gallery said he was out of power, then he was out of power. They're there for exposition. When Vegeta started fighting again, Beerus didn't go "Oh snap sorry guys I was wrong lol". Bringing up him being wrong about the timelines is inconsequential to these points.

And, as regards Gohan going SS2 twice, I don't know what happened on the production side of that, but in the manga he goes SS2 only once. He doesn't transform, de-transform, and then need another rage boost. It's more like the show gave us 2 versions of it. Strange, but plot wise he didn't rage boost to SS2 twice. It was only once.
The fact that Vegeta is able to keep fighting shows you that he's wrong. It is likewise not complicated to have character A say a thing about character B and character B show that said thing is not true. And what about him thinking Goku is finished multiple times in the Battle of Gods arc before Goku actually goes down? He starts getting really angry about it. Beerus is there for exposition but he's shown to be flat out wrong about things on multiple occasions. If you want another example of this happening, Goku vs Frieza on Namek. Goku says to himself that he used up too much power with his 20x Kaioken Kamehameha against Frieza and is so weakened he can't even fight back. After the Spirit Bomb he can barely stand. But when he goes Super Saiyan he magically has enough power to overpower Frieza who is also somehow able to tap into his full power despite saying he almost died a chapter or two before. There is never ANY explanation for how this happens and Goku is never healed at any point between that attack and going Super Saiyan. It's the exact same thing but I see this one get a pass all the time.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Forte224 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:05 pm

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Forte224 wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote: Vegeta never said he was out of power after defeating Toppo. That was Beerus, the same guy who claimed he could kill someone across timelines. All Vegeta said was he wasn't dead.

And as bad as Super can be sometimes, it doesn't have anything on the level of Gohan going SS2 at the end of one episode, the inexplicably going back to SS1 and having to be pushed to transform again the next episode.
Dragon Ball isn't a deep show. If Beerus, A.K.A. the peanut gallery said he was out of power, then he was out of power. They're there for exposition. When Vegeta started fighting again, Beerus didn't go "Oh snap sorry guys I was wrong lol". Bringing up him being wrong about the timelines is inconsequential to these points.

And, as regards Gohan going SS2 twice, I don't know what happened on the production side of that, but in the manga he goes SS2 only once. He doesn't transform, de-transform, and then need another rage boost. It's more like the show gave us 2 versions of it. Strange, but plot wise he didn't rage boost to SS2 twice. It was only once.
And what about him thinking Goku is finished multiple times in Battle of Gods before Goku actually goes down? He starts getting really angry about it. Beerus is there for exposition but he's shown to be flat out wrong about things on multiple occasions. If you want another example of this happening, Goku vs Frieza on Namek. Goku says to himself that he used up too much power with his 20x Kaioken Kamehameha against Frieza and is so weakened he can't even fight back. After the Spirit Bomb he can barely stand. But when he goes Super Saiyan he magically has enough power to overpower Frieza who is also somehow able to tap into his full power despite saying he almost died a chapter or two before. There is never ANY explanation for how this happens and Goku is never healed at any point between that attack and going Super Saiyan. It's the exact same thing but I see this one get a pass all the time.
Once again, I never said Z was perfect. But the degree and consistent inconsistency Super contains far out does it.

And no, Beerus never once corrected himself in regards to Vegeta. There was no point in having Beerus say that line only for him to be wrong. Besides, Vegeta used an attack that killed him in the past, it's to be expected he at least lost a ton of power but he appears to have lost none. Jiren even tells Vegeta he can't be him with those wounds in the next episode, but we never clearly see any consequences of those supposed wounds. Add to that that Super consistently has characters say "Oh I'm so drained" only to be fighting at seemingly full power 2 minutes later and we have ourselves a consistent issue of Super not making anything clear about these character's conditions.

Look at the show objectively please. Stop using contrived explanations like "Beerus was wrong about stuff before so he must be wrong now" to defend something that's not really worthy of defense.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:18 pm

it doesn't have anything on the level of Gohan going SS2 at the end of one episode, the inexplicably going back to SS1 and having to be pushed to transform again the next episode.
I took at as two takes on the same scene. He didn't literally go SS2, revert to SS1 then go SS2 again.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:44 pm

ABED wrote:
it doesn't have anything on the level of Gohan going SS2 at the end of one episode, the inexplicably going back to SS1 and having to be pushed to transform again the next episode.
I took at as two takes on the same scene. He didn't literally go SS2, revert to SS1 then go SS2 again.
It was a screw up. They had to backtrack to add in the stuff with the Cell Jrs who weren't present in the original version
Forte224 wrote:
BlueBasilisk wrote:
Forte224 wrote: Dragon Ball isn't a deep show. If Beerus, A.K.A. the peanut gallery said he was out of power, then he was out of power. They're there for exposition. When Vegeta started fighting again, Beerus didn't go "Oh snap sorry guys I was wrong lol". Bringing up him being wrong about the timelines is inconsequential to these points.

And, as regards Gohan going SS2 twice, I don't know what happened on the production side of that, but in the manga he goes SS2 only once. He doesn't transform, de-transform, and then need another rage boost. It's more like the show gave us 2 versions of it. Strange, but plot wise he didn't rage boost to SS2 twice. It was only once.
And what about him thinking Goku is finished multiple times in Battle of Gods before Goku actually goes down? He starts getting really angry about it. Beerus is there for exposition but he's shown to be flat out wrong about things on multiple occasions. If you want another example of this happening, Goku vs Frieza on Namek. Goku says to himself that he used up too much power with his 20x Kaioken Kamehameha against Frieza and is so weakened he can't even fight back. After the Spirit Bomb he can barely stand. But when he goes Super Saiyan he magically has enough power to overpower Frieza who is also somehow able to tap into his full power despite saying he almost died a chapter or two before. There is never ANY explanation for how this happens and Goku is never healed at any point between that attack and going Super Saiyan. It's the exact same thing but I see this one get a pass all the time.
Once again, I never said Z was perfect. But the degree and consistent inconsistency Super contains far out does it.

And no, Beerus never once corrected himself in regards to Vegeta. There was no point in having Beerus say that line only for him to be wrong. Besides, Vegeta used an attack that killed him in the past, it's to be expected he at least lost a ton of power but he appears to have lost none. Jiren even tells Vegeta he can't be him with those wounds in the next episode, but we never clearly see any consequences of those supposed wounds. Add to that that Super consistently has characters say "Oh I'm so drained" only to be fighting at seemingly full power 2 minutes later and we have ourselves a consistent issue of Super not making anything clear about these character's conditions.

Look at the show objectively please. Stop using contrived explanations like "Beerus was wrong about stuff before so he must be wrong now" to defend something that's not really worthy of defense.
Oh please, could you be any more patronizing? And I will decide what I will or will not defend, thank you very much. Not you. So you want consistent writing, but then you dismiss Beerus having a history of being wrong about things and underestimating peoples' limitations as contrivance? And there's nothing contradictory about what Jiren said. Did Vegeta beat him with those wounds? No. No he did not. Vegeta did absolutely nothing of significance to him in the next two episodes except eat two ass kickings and waste a couple minutes, and Jiren was still sandbagging him.

I had a longer reply typed out but I can recognize this is going to be one of those arguments where we just go around in circles arguing about the same thing and trying to get the last word in over each other. I've had my fill of those during my time in the fandom so the last word here is yours if you want it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:50 pm

It was a screw up. They had to backtrack to add in the stuff with the Cell Jrs who weren't present in the original version
Huh? Do you mean weren't present in episode 184?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Forte224 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:51 pm

I'm not wanting circles or a last word, nor was I trying to upset you. I explained my views in reply to someone else and you replied to me. Did you want me to just say nothing? I truly don't understand.

But, since we're here, can you explain what the plot significance of Beerus assumedly being wrong with that line is? In his other instances of being wrong he acknowledged it. Or we don't have to continue, whatever.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:48 pm

ABED wrote:
It was a screw up. They had to backtrack to add in the stuff with the Cell Jrs who weren't present in the original version
Huh? Do you mean weren't present in episode 184?
Sorry, yeah. The first time Gohan went SS2 in the anime was when 16's head was crushed, but it took the Cell Jrs in the revised version in the next episode so I think somehow they jumped the gun on SS2 and had to revise to match what happened in the manga. HOW they would have done that, I don't know. :S
Forte224 wrote:I'm not wanting circles or a last word, nor was I trying to upset you. I explained my views in reply to someone else and you replied to me. Did you want me to just say nothing? I truly don't understand.

But, since we're here, can you explain what the plot significance of Beerus assumedly being wrong with that line is? In his other instances of being wrong he acknowledged it. Or we don't have to continue, whatever.
My apologies for losing my temper and being a little rude. I've just had arguments like that so many times that it gets to me. You arguing your views was totally fine, but I found that bit at the end to be needlessly condescending and it got me a little heated. :oops: But if that wasn't your intention then I apologize for being rude myself. :)

Here, let me explain my take on things like this. What we have here is a case of show vs. tell. We are told one thing by Beerus (Vegeta is out of energy), but we are shown another (he fights for two more episodes). Since Vegeta is still able to fight and offers no commentary on his own power level and Beerus has a history of misjudging these things, I see it as keeping with his character to be wrong about this. I give priority to the "show" vs the "tell." Now I don't know if that was the intention of the writers or not, and there are instances of little screw-ups like that across the franchise including Super, but I don't see anything contradictory in this particular instance because of the way Beerus has been presented in the past on similar issues. However, I am in agreement with you that Beerus either should have reacted to it in the following episode or not said it at all as it adds unnecessary confusion about what happened, but he did so it is what it is. I personally give more credence to the action we see than the people commenting on it unless it is one of the people directly involved.

I think what's really at the root here is the Stupid Sideline Commentary. You cut that out and the narrative of the fight flows mostly fine with far fewer issues. I watch a lot of pro-wrestling and the commentators there do this kind of stuff aaallll the time, so when Dragon Ball does it I view it the same way. It's just there to goad a reaction from the casual viewer. That's why I bring up the Frieza example whenever this scene is brought up. Most people I've talked to don't even notice that bit of BS with Goku even happened even though him being tired only a couple episodes/chapters before. The example with Vegeta is more obvious because it happens so close to the opposing action and right at the end of the episode prior whereas Goku's was more spread out and dovetailed right into a huge dramatic moment, but I feel like the purpose was fundamentally the same. Does that clarify where I'm coming from a bit?

I don't think you're wrong for calling it out, but I don't think it's a grievous error so much as a bit of badly placed fight fluff.

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