Things that grind your gears

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:59 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:One Piece might shove villain back stories down your throat, but they usually amount to more than 2 minutes of the barest bones, generic anime villain, diet One Piece fluff.
This is another problem. Dragon Ball isn't One Piece or Naruto. We should compare Jiren's backstory to other DB antagonist/villains which as I pointed out most of them don't even have one. A bad backstory will always be better than nothing and Jiren's backstory works because we don't have one like that in this franchise.
A bad backstory actively hurts your character, Cell's is an absolute mess of bad time travel mechanics piled on top of one another and Black is arguably even worse.

It is better to have nothing than something bad and Jiren's is Minus levels of undercooked. Not even effectively minimalistic like Daimao's or Majin Boo's where you get a sense for who and what they are juts fine with little information given. The backstory for Jiren is little more than an abridged Wikipedia synopsis with pictures, music and voice acting.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:11 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:One Piece might shove villain back stories down your throat, but they usually amount to more than 2 minutes of the barest bones, generic anime villain, diet One Piece fluff.
This is another problem. Dragon Ball isn't One Piece or Naruto. We should compare Jiren's backstory to other DB antagonist/villains which as I pointed out most of them don't even have one. A bad backstory will always be better than nothing and Jiren's backstory works because we don't have one like that in this franchise.
A bad backstory actively hurts your character, Cell's is an absolute mess of bad time travel mechanics piled on top of one another and Black is arguably even worse.

It is better to have nothing than something bad and Jiren's is Minus levels of undercooked. Not even effectively minimalistic like Daimao's or Majin Boo's where you get a sense for who and what they are juts fine with little information given. The backstory for Jiren is little more than an abridged Wikipedia synopsis with pictures, music and voice acting.
THere are no good time travel mechanics. If even James Cameron admittedly can't make sense of it, then stop putting so much thought into something that's inherently fantasy.

Cell's character isn't defined by his backstory nor should any character really. People place entirely too much emphasis on backstories. Characters are defined by what they want and how they go about getting it.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:22 am

ABED wrote: Cell's character isn't defined by his backstory nor should any character really. People place entirely too much emphasis on backstories. Characters are defined by what they want and how they go about getting it.
But backstories can help understand better a character's logic, emotions and motives,
while it's not strictly necessary it can contribute to enrich the character and more importantly the connection we can have with said character as a viewer/reader lol

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:23 am

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote: This is another problem. Dragon Ball isn't One Piece or Naruto. We should compare Jiren's backstory to other DB antagonist/villains which as I pointed out most of them don't even have one. A bad backstory will always be better than nothing and Jiren's backstory works because we don't have one like that in this franchise.
A bad backstory actively hurts your character, Cell's is an absolute mess of bad time travel mechanics piled on top of one another and Black is arguably even worse.

It is better to have nothing than something bad and Jiren's is Minus levels of undercooked. Not even effectively minimalistic like Daimao's or Majin Boo's where you get a sense for who and what they are juts fine with little information given. The backstory for Jiren is little more than an abridged Wikipedia synopsis with pictures, music and voice acting.
THere are no good time travel mechanics. If even James Cameron admittedly can't make sense of it, then stop putting so much thought into something that's inherently fantasy.

Cell's character isn't defined by his backstory nor should any character really. People place entirely too much emphasis on backstories. Characters are defined by what they want and how they go about getting it.
DB had a good time travel mechanic setup where the time line splits when you go back and change something, they just screwed it up with Cell then Black and it's a real big problem when the context for how and why someone exists makes no sense.

Like I said earlier, backstory is a narrative device, it can be a good or bad thing. There's plenty of examples where having one adds or detracts from someone and others where lacking it does the same.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:25 am

The time travel mechanics weren't screwed up by Cell. Trunks somehow went back to the future of HIS timeline even after he changed the past. The mechanics of time travel will never work. There's always an issue.

Of course, backstory is like anything else, a matter of execution. I don't like that some think it's the end all be all.
But backstories can help understand better a character's logic, emotions and motives,
Keyword being "CAN".
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:28 am

FortuneSSJ wrote:Fans complaining about how bad Jiren's backstory is in a franchise that is known for not giving backstories to most of its antagonists/villains, in the first place...
I'm actually glad they bother to came up with one this time and it fits his character.

Tao Pai Pai, Raditz, Nappa, Dodoria, Zarbon, Ginyu Force, Dr Gero, C17, C18, Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabra, Babidi, Beerus, Whis and Hit don't have backstories for example and yet I see fans acting like this franchise was high standards when it comes to this.

Even Freeza, the most iconic villain of this franchise, doesn't have a proper backstory. All we see from his past is his interactions with the Saiyans.
20+ years later we still don't even know where he came from, how he met the Saiyans and what's the official name of his race.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't think people annoyed at Jiren's backstory are crazy about backstories in general. At the end of the day, backstory is not the same as story. Story is much more important, but backstory can be used to supplement a story. You're right. Those other villains don't have backstories either. And that's okay, because most of those other examples have personality, motivation, charisma. Jiren was a boring blank slate. The series was trying so hard to hype him up as this huge threat we should all be in awe of, but he was far too dull to carry the story. Viewers like me were casting out for something, ANYTHING to grab on to in order to connect with this character. I was holding out hope that maybe, once everything came together, he would work as a character. That maybe, just maybe, this would all be worth it once I had the whole puzzle. And then, finally, after months of his underwhelming presence, we finally get a bit of information on him: a by-the-numbers tale delivered with tepid dialogue breaking the flow of a moment that should be urgent (they're only supposed to have two minutes left of this tournament, their side is losing, so their god wastes precious time through exposition? Ridiculous!).

So, yeah, the backstory sucks, and its execution is even worse. After all those months of nothing, it was the final slap in the face. Jiren was never going to be compelling. He was never going to be more than the best insomniac cure Dragon Ball had ever invented. And it was at that moment that it became clear. So, yeah, I think it's understandable why so many people take issue with it while not raising the same complaints against other Dragon Ball antagonists.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ricky84 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:34 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:One Piece might shove villain back stories down your throat, but they usually amount to more than 2 minutes of the barest bones, generic anime villain, diet One Piece fluff.
This is another problem. Dragon Ball isn't One Piece or Naruto. We should compare Jiren's backstory to other DB antagonist/villains which as I pointed out most of them don't even have one. A bad backstory will always be better than nothing and Jiren's backstory works because we don't have one like that in this franchise.
A bad backstory actively hurts your character, Cell's is an absolute mess of bad time travel mechanics piled on top of one another and Black is arguably even worse.

It is better to have nothing than something bad and Jiren's is Minus levels of undercooked. Not even effectively minimalistic like Daimao's or Majin Boo's where you get a sense for who and what they are juts fine with little information given. The backstory for Jiren is little more than an abridged Wikipedia synopsis with pictures, music and voice acting.
Goku Black's origin isn't really all that confusing, neither is Cell's (he is from the 1st timeline)
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ricky84 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:35 am

When people complain about things in Super, yet make hypocritical excuses when the same things happened in DB(Z).
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:07 pm

ABED wrote:The time travel mechanics weren't screwed up by Cell. Trunks somehow went back to the future of HIS timeline even after he changed the past. The mechanics of time travel will never work. There's always an issue.
I don't see the problem of him going back. When he interfered with the past he split the time line and made it go back to its original one later.

What I don't get is how two separate future timelines even exist to spawn two separate altered timelines from. Some people say Cells is the original one but that wouldn't work since he'd wreck the past so much by showing up and eating 17 & 18 that there's no way the Earth would survive long enough to end up in a similar apocalyptic future.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:32 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:The time travel mechanics weren't screwed up by Cell. Trunks somehow went back to the future of HIS timeline even after he changed the past. The mechanics of time travel will never work. There's always an issue.
I don't see the problem of him going back. When he interfered with the past he split the time line and made it go back to its original one later.

What I don't get is how two separate future timelines even exist to spawn two separate altered timelines from. Some people say Cells is the original one but that wouldn't work since he'd wreck the past so much by showing up and eating 17 & 18 that there's no way the Earth would survive long enough to end up in a similar apocalyptic future.
Funnily enough, I never really bothered to learn the details until I was doing research for yesterday's episode of Dragon Ball Dissection. Since Cell is also a time traveler, and he stole the time machine at a later point in time than Trunks had used it, that means there had to be a version of the timeline that existed before he traveled to it. As in, there would be a timeline where Trunks went back to warn the others, but Future Cell wasn't already there in hibernation. It's not one we ever see, but it has to exist. In that one, #16, #17, and #18 are activated just as they are in the series. But with no Cell arriving to distract them, the conflict is resolved, and Trunks returns to his time with the Emergency Shutdown Controller, which he uses to defeat #17 and #18. Presumably they used it to defeat them in the past as well. Then Cell matures, finds his other components destroyed, and travels back in time, which creates the main series timeline.

So, as Daizenshuu 7 explains it: Timeline 1 is the timeline of the main story. Timeline 2 is Trunks's final timeline, where he defeats #17, #18, and Cell through the power he gained in the Room of Spirit and Time. Timeline 3 is Trunks's prior timeline, where he defeats #17 and #18 but is killed by Cell. And Timeline 4 is the timeline where the heroes have been warned by Trunks, but Cell never arrived. Exceeeeeeept... Daizenshuu 7's explanation of Timeline 4 contradicts itself. They describe it as a timeline where Trunks is not present for the Cell Games because he'd already left with the shutdown controller. But the only reason he would have left early is because there was no Cell to distract them from defeating the Artificial Humans, and it would make absolutely no sense for Cell to be able to exist in both iterations. Basically, Daizenshuu 7 explains a problem while creating a new one at the same time. But it's a very needless problem. You just need to dismiss the whole Cell Games reference as a mistake. There was really no need to include that detail in the first place. Suffice it to say, that's what I meant in the video when I said it had its own problems that I wasn't even going to get into. It could be the reason the Chozenshuu (I believe?) omits the 4th timeline entirely. But from what I understand, you do need a 4th timeline to make this work.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by OhHiRenan » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:35 pm

ricky84 wrote:When people complain about things in Super, yet make hypocritical excuses when the same things happened in DB(Z).
On that note, when people try to defend Super by criticizing the original series. Different contexts, different tones, and different stories lend themselves to different criticisms. What worked in the original series might not work in Super. And often doesn't.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:43 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:The time travel mechanics weren't screwed up by Cell. Trunks somehow went back to the future of HIS timeline even after he changed the past. The mechanics of time travel will never work. There's always an issue.
I don't see the problem of him going back. When he interfered with the past he split the time line and made it go back to its original one later.

What I don't get is how two separate future timelines even exist to spawn two separate altered timelines from. Some people say Cells is the original one but that wouldn't work since he'd wreck the past so much by showing up and eating 17 & 18 that there's no way the Earth would survive long enough to end up in a similar apocalyptic future.
Funnily enough, I never really bothered to learn the details until I was doing research for yesterday's episode of Dragon Ball Dissection. Since Cell is also a time traveler, and he stole the time machine at a later point in time than Trunks had used it, that means there had to be a version of the timeline that existed before he traveled to it. As in, there would be a timeline where Trunks went back to warn the others, but Future Cell wasn't already there in hibernation. It's not one we ever see, but it has to exist. In that one, #16, #17, and #18 are activated just as they are in the series. But with no Cell arriving to distract them, the conflict is resolved, and Trunks returns to his time with the Emergency Shutdown Controller, which he uses to defeat #17 and #18. Presumably they used it to defeat them in the past as well. Then Cell matures, finds his other components destroyed, and travels back in time, which creates the main series timeline.

So, as Daizenshuu 7 explains it: Timeline 1 is the timeline of the main story. Timeline 2 is Trunks's final timeline, where he defeats #17, #18, and Cell through the power he gained in the Room of Spirit and Time. Timeline 3 is Trunks's prior timeline, where he defeats #17 and #18 but is killed by Cell. And Timeline 4 is the timeline where the heroes have been warned by Trunks, but Cell never arrived. Exceeeeeeept... Daizenshuu 7's explanation of Timeline 4 contradicts itself. They describe it as a timeline where Trunks is not present for the Cell Games because he'd already left with the shutdown controller. But the only reason he would have left early is because there was no Cell to distract them from defeating the Artificial Humans, and it would make absolutely no sense for Cell to be able to exist in both iterations. Basically, Daizenshuu 7 explains a problem while creating a new one at the same time. But it's a very needless problem. You just need to dismiss the whole Cell Games reference as a mistake. There was really no need to include that detail in the first place. Suffice it to say, that's what I meant in the video when I said it had its own problems that I wasn't even going to get into. It could be the reason the Chozenshuu (I believe?) omits the 4th timeline entirely. But from what I understand, you do need a 4th timeline to make this work.
There has to be 4 yes but I'm not sure how another Future Trunks one is spawned.

Let's say Cell's time-line is the original one, his Trunks goes back and causes the split. Then Cell goes back too and makes another split. So far so good until you think a little harder about this third timeline: how does the Earth even survive to have a Future Trunks of its own? By all common reasoning, Cell being there to devour 17 and 18 with no one there to stop him should result in the Earth being destroyed and him becoming perfect. Why is there another Future Trunks around when events should make it impossible for him to exist in another time line.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:16 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:There has to be 4 yes but I'm not sure how another Future Trunks one is spawned.

Let's say Cell's time-line is the original one, his Trunks goes back and causes the split. Then Cell goes back too and makes another split. So far so good until you think a little harder about this third timeline: how does the Earth even survive to have a Future Trunks of its own? By all common reasoning, Cell being there to devour 17 and 18 with no one there to stop him should result in the Earth being destroyed and him becoming perfect. Why is there another Future Trunks around when events should make it impossible for him to exist in another time line.
Cell never travels back to a timeline ravaged by #17 and #18. He only ends up in what is ultimately the actual timeline of the story. The Cell that kills Trunks in what Daizenshuu 7 calls Timeline 3 is not a time traveler, or, rather, hasn't become one yet. That's just the natural course of his development. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work. I think I understand what you're saying, because there's still a problem. Cell splits the timeline at a point earlier than Trunks's initial visit. So theoretically, the timeline Cell travels to couldn't be a timeline that Trunks visits. Is that what you're saying?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:27 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:There has to be 4 yes but I'm not sure how another Future Trunks one is spawned.

Let's say Cell's time-line is the original one, his Trunks goes back and causes the split. Then Cell goes back too and makes another split. So far so good until you think a little harder about this third timeline: how does the Earth even survive to have a Future Trunks of its own? By all common reasoning, Cell being there to devour 17 and 18 with no one there to stop him should result in the Earth being destroyed and him becoming perfect. Why is there another Future Trunks around when events should make it impossible for him to exist in another time line.
Cell never travels back to a timeline ravaged by #17 and #18. He only ends up in what is ultimately the actual timeline of the story. The Cell that kills Trunks in what Daizenshuu 7 calls Timeline 3 is not a time traveler, or, rather, hasn't become one yet. That's just the natural course of his development. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work. I think I understand what you're saying, because there's still a problem. Cell splits the timeline at a point earlier than Trunks's initial visit. So theoretically, the timeline Cell travels to couldn't be a timeline that Trunks visits. Is that what you're saying?
I'm saying Future Trunks can't exist in an apocalyptic version of the main timeline to travel from.

For a Future Trunks to exist, a timeline has to have the same events happen in order to facilitate his existence, Cell arriving at the main timeline makes these events impossible. The series acts as though a Future Trunks traveling back is a default, pre-ordained thing to happen no matter what but it can't in the main timeline.

What should, by all rights happen in the main timeline is this: Goku dies from the heart virus, 17, 18 and the time traveling Cell show up, Cell eventually absorbs the latter two, becomes perfect, destroys the Earth. Future Trunks has no chance of existing in the history of this timeline.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:43 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I'm saying Future Trunks can't exist in an apocalyptic version of the main timeline to travel from.

For a Future Trunks to exist, a timeline has to have the same events happen in order to facilitate his existence, Cell arriving at the main timeline makes these events impossible. The series acts as though a Future Trunks traveling back is a default, pre-ordained thing to happen no matter what but it can't in the main timeline.

What should, by all rights happen in the main timeline is this: Goku dies from the heart virus, 17, 18 and the time traveling Cell show up, Cell eventually absorbs the latter two, becomes perfect, destroys the Earth. Future Trunks has no chance of existing in the history of this timeline.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying you're saying. The Daizenshuu timelines treat Trunks's initial trip as if it happens in more than one timeline, but that's not possible given how they explain time travel works. If Cell had traveled back to a time after Trunks had already visited, then it would make sense. That would give a reason for that event to be duplicated. But since Cell's visit causes the timeline to branch earlier, it just duplicates Trunks's visit into that timeline for no reason. The timeline Cell travels into SHOULD be a timeline where there's no Future Trunks and, therefore, no Dragon Team. But instead, he travels into a timeline where Trunks shows up too. In essence, Cell's trip acts like it overwrites the timeline Trunks made, even though that's not how time travel is supposed to work in Dragon Ball. And it can't work that way since the Daizenshuu claims there's a timeline where Future Trunks and the gang defeat the Artificial Humans and he goes home early.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:44 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
ricky84 wrote:When people complain about things in Super, yet make hypocritical excuses when the same things happened in DB(Z).
On that note, when people try to defend Super by criticizing the original series. Different contexts, different tones, and different stories lend themselves to different criticisms. What worked in the original series might not work in Super. And often doesn't.
Even without that, the fact original series has problems does not excuse Super problems, even the more so if it's repetition of a problem from the past lol

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:55 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I'm saying Future Trunks can't exist in an apocalyptic version of the main timeline to travel from.

For a Future Trunks to exist, a timeline has to have the same events happen in order to facilitate his existence, Cell arriving at the main timeline makes these events impossible. The series acts as though a Future Trunks traveling back is a default, pre-ordained thing to happen no matter what but it can't in the main timeline.

What should, by all rights happen in the main timeline is this: Goku dies from the heart virus, 17, 18 and the time traveling Cell show up, Cell eventually absorbs the latter two, becomes perfect, destroys the Earth. Future Trunks has no chance of existing in the history of this timeline.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying you're saying. The Daizenshuu timelines treat Trunks's initial trip as if it happens in more than one timeline, but that's not possible given how they explain time travel works. If Cell had traveled back to a time after Trunks had already visited, then it would make sense. That would give a reason for that event to be duplicated. But since Cell's visit causes the timeline to branch earlier, it just duplicates Trunks's visit into that timeline for no reason. The timeline Cell travels into SHOULD be a timeline where there's no Future Trunks and, therefore, no Dragon Team. But instead, he travels into a timeline where Trunks shows up too. In essence, Cell's trip acts like it overwrites the timeline Trunks made, even though that's not how time travel is supposed to work in Dragon Ball. And it can't work that way since the Daizenshuu claims there's a timeline where Future Trunks and the gang defeat the Artificial Humans and he goes home early.
That is more or less the crux of the issue. As far as proposed solutions to this go, there aren't many without rewriting or inserting fan ideas into the text. The only one I can come up with that's sort of rooted in the series is the Super manga implying someone invented time travel and split the various timelines up years before Trunks got the chance:

Image
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:16 pm

It's sad that all you need to do to fix this is simply put Cell's time travel trip to a year after Trunks showed up rather than a year before and have Cell say it takes two years for him to regrow. Problem solved. It makes it possible for those timelines to coalesce. Not only that, but it somewhat mitigates the illogic of Cell's time machine being set by Trunks to a time before he'd met the Dragon Team. While it would make more sense for him to tell them his good news at a point in time after they'd beaten their Artificial Humans, it's less implausible than the way it's presented in the story.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:03 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:It's sad that all you need to do to fix this is simply put Cell's time travel trip to a year after Trunks showed up rather than a year before and have Cell say it takes two years for him to regrow. Problem solved. It makes it possible for those timelines to coalesce. Not only that, but it somewhat mitigates the illogic of Cell's time machine being set by Trunks to a time before he'd met the Dragon Team. While it would make more sense for him to tell them his good news at a point in time after they'd beaten their Artificial Humans, it's less implausible than the way it's presented in the story.
I hadn't thought of that but you're right. Not to harp on the modern stuff again but the time travel there would also get fixed by simply having Trunks split the timelines again by interfering instead of the nonsense with Beerus killing Zamasu.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:20 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:The time travel mechanics weren't screwed up by Cell. Trunks somehow went back to the future of HIS timeline even after he changed the past. The mechanics of time travel will never work. There's always an issue.
I don't see the problem of him going back. When he interfered with the past he split the time line and made it go back to its original one later.

What I don't get is how two separate future timelines even exist to spawn two separate altered timelines from. Some people say Cells is the original one but that wouldn't work since he'd wreck the past so much by showing up and eating 17 & 18 that there's no way the Earth would survive long enough to end up in a similar apocalyptic future.
How did he make it go back to HIS future? That's my point. Time travel is an inherently illogical idea. All this talk about time travel reminds me of this scene from Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me

Austin Powers: Basil, if I travel back to 1969 and I was frozen in 1967... presumably, I could go visit my frozen self. But if I'm still frozen in 1967... how could I have been unthawed... in the Nineties and traveled back-- Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed.

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