Things that grind your gears

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zarmack
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:11 pm

ABED wrote:I'm saying people don't care that much about lore and the world of the story beyond what it takes to clarify the story.
How the hell are you supposed to be engaged to any work of fiction if they are aren't interested in the story that makes it happen?
The engaging characters, dialog, acting. I don't need to know everything about the world and the characters beyond what the story needs to tell me. I don't need to know the ins and out of Freeza's planetary empire. I just need to know they exist, in essence what they do, and who the leader is.
Saiyan and Namek arcs wouldn't held in such a high regard in Japan and much of the world's audience if the story/lore didn't matter to them.
Yes, STORY, not LORE. People don't tune in for exposition.
Concepts and ideas are not neutral. Some are inherently better than others and that effects the quality of any possible execution of them. Some ideas are simple unsalvageable.
While I can agree somewhat, I've seen plenty of bland sounding ideas end up great because it was executed well. This all is very vague. Could you give specific examples?
That's are big part of what got Japan (and other regions that saw Early DB first) hooked on the Saiyan and Namek arcs.
So what got people into the story is something that explained what happened earlier in the story they didn't watch?
1. Way to make a strawman bro. I never said a story needed to go into pointless details like the full extent of Freeza's empire if the plot has nothing to do with it.

2. Also, lore and setting are literally the same thing. The main STORY of the Saiyan and Namek arc is centered around the LORE surrounding both races and how Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Freeza are relate to it. So you are committing the false-dichotomy fallacy.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:16 pm

1. Way to make a strawman bro. I never said a story needed to go into pointless details like the full extent of Freeza's empire if the plot has nothing to do with it.

2. Also, lore and setting are literally the same thing. The main STORY of the Saiyan and Namek arc is centered around the LORE surrounding both races and how Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Freeza are relate to it. So you are committing the false-dichotomy fallacy.
1. Then I don't think you understand what lore is.

2. Lore and Setting are NOT the same thing. Setting is the time and place the story takes place in. Lore is about the history and the background. It's also concerned with the facts surrounding it, like Saiyans getting stronger after near death.

People weren't tuning into the lore of the Saiyans. They tuned in to see the conflict between the invaders trying to destroy Earth and the heroes defending it. We didn't tune in for the lore of the Saiyans' history with Freeza and his empire. That exposition gave some cool context, but the reason we tuned in was to see things like fights, characters, tension, and humor.

If I'm committing a false-dichotomy fallacy, why not just say people watch for the story instead of telling us people tuned in for the lore?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zarmack » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:30 pm

ABED wrote:
1. Way to make a strawman bro. I never said a story needed to go into pointless details like the full extent of Freeza's empire if the plot has nothing to do with it.

2. Also, lore and setting are literally the same thing. The main STORY of the Saiyan and Namek arc is centered around the LORE surrounding both races and how Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Freeza are relate to it. So you are committing the false-dichotomy fallacy.
1. Then I don't think you understand what lore is.

2. Lore and Setting are NOT the same thing. Setting is the time and place the story takes place in. Lore is about the history and the background. It's also concerned with the facts surrounding it, like Saiyans getting stronger after near death.

People weren't tuning into the lore of the Saiyans. They tuned in to see the conflict between the invaders trying to destroy Earth and the heroes defending it. We didn't tune in for the lore of the Saiyans' history with Freeza and his empire. That exposition gave some cool context, but the reason we tuned in was to see things like fights, characters, tension, and humor.

If I'm committing a false-dichotomy fallacy, why not just say people watch for the story instead of telling us people tuned in for the lore?
1. The "history and background" of a setting has everything to do with the time and place its in. You just commit another false-dichotomy fallacy.

2. Again, you don't speak for everyone. A lot of viewers in fact were tuned into the lore of the Saiyans. Hell, Vegeta's entire beef with both Freeza and Goku is partly rooted in it. We wouldn't get so much "Saiyan history" material in the franchise (like the 90s Bardock film, DB Legends, the 1st and newest Broly films, GT's Baby arc and whole Yamoshi stuff, etc) if a lot people weren't interested in Saiyan lore. Why wouldn't you want to learn more about the characters you are interested in? Why do you think there's so many fans that want to see a Planet Sadala arc? Its common sense.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:46 pm

2. Again, you don't speak for everyone. A lot of viewers in fact were tuned into the lore of the Saiyans. Hell, Vegeta's entire beef with both Freeza and Goku is partly rooted in it. We wouldn't get so much "Saiyan history" material in the franchise (like the 90s Bardock film, DB Legends, the 1st and newest Broly films, GT's Baby arc and whole Yamoshi stuff, etc) if a lot people weren't interested in Saiyan lore. Why wouldn't you want to learn more about the characters you are interested in? Why do you think there's so many fans that want to see a Planet Sadala arc? Its common sense.
ANd neither do you. Why do you get to say people tuned into for the lore and I can't say they didn't?

They wouldn't tune in for the exposition. The background helped give context, but if Toriyama couldn't deliver on characterization and action, no amount of exposition would've mattered. Tying Freeza with Vegeta and Goku is interesting to a point. Toriyama still has to come up with a cool design and characterization. That's what keeps their interest.

I am interested in learning more about the characters I like, but that's such a broad question and your implied answer to it is reductive. I'm interested in learning more about them through their actions, not just background info.

The Broly film is pure nostalgia.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:00 pm

When people make a big deal out of what is canon and what isn't. There is no true official canon. :evil:
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:37 pm

Hulk10 wrote:When people make a big deal out of what is canon and what isn't. There is no true official canon. :evil:
THe manga is canon. What would it mean to say the main story isn't canon?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:39 pm

ABED wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:When people make a big deal out of what is canon and what isn't. There is no true official canon. :evil:
THe manga is canon. What would it mean to say the main story isn't canon?
Everyone says that the manga is canon. My point is that there is no official canon.
Last edited by Hulk10 on Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:55 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
ABED wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:When people make a big deal out of what is canon and what isn't. There is no true official canon. :evil:
THe manga is canon. What would it mean to say the main story isn't canon?
Everyone says that the manga is canon.
It doesn't even need to be said. It should be a given that the original run is canon. And not to get into the whole issue of what is an isn't canon, my big issue with people stating DB doesn't have one it's unclear what they mean by that.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:
ABED wrote: THe manga is canon. What would it mean to say the main story isn't canon?
Everyone says that the manga is canon.
It doesn't even need to be said. It should be a given that the original run is canon. And not to get into the whole issue of what is an isn't canon, my big issue with people stating DB doesn't have one it's unclear what they mean by that.
True it should be a given. Its the highest level of canon. Or at least should be. I assume you mean the manga version of the anime and not those of games?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:38 pm

I was referring to the original run of Toriyama's manga, i.e. his 42 volumes.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Grimlock » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:05 am

Lord Beerus wrote:"Show, don't tell" is one of the important techniques in writing. As banal as some stories in the Dragon Ball franchise can be, even those kinds of stories had a basic grasp of concept of "Show, don't tell". 99.8%* of the stories told in the franchise have the basic understanding to storytelling. Which is to develop characters, meet new people, get into personal conflict(s) including said new people, evolve the personalities of the cast based on the unique environments or scenarios they are involved in, and resolve the conflict(s). Dragon Ball Online does not have that. Dragon Ball Online doesn't understand basics of storytelling as it relies on you being invested in a laundry list of information with no pretense of how any of the information affects anything about anyone.
Dragon Ball Online does have some of the things you mentioned, and probably the other ones it didn't have because it shut down too soon, which his why is extremely idiotic to accuse the game of lacking something since it didn't even had chance/time to show. Conversely, Dragon Ball Super had the chance and it failed...

... What you said is funny because that perfectly applies to 99.9%* of Dragon Ball Super, yet, I do not see you saying that the series lack all those things. And no, there is not even a story to be told in two of its three original sagas (I will not give credits to Dragon Ball Super when it comes to the retellings because the movies are part of the Dragon Ball Z brand, but even if I were to take them into consideration, it would just make things worse for Dragon Ball Super because Golden Freeza saga also has no story at all, and I remember seeing characters regressing in their supposed character development throughout the entire series/de-evolving the personalities). So again, where are the basics of storytelling in this beloved series?

Like I said above, regressing characters, most of the new people they met were forgettable, a false sense of personal conflict in tournaments but Beerus himself once put it in a way that perfectly describes modern Dragon Ball: "it's just all an excuse to fight". And the resolve of the conflicts were generally cheap. Where are you stating those things about the series? Or does it just become a problem when games are the ones coming up with more interesting stuff?

*The 1% left is Future Trunks saga.
Lord Beerus wrote:Let me use this analogy: Imagine you see an incredibly decorative and visually appealing exterior for a mansion. Then you go inside the mansion and there's nothing there. No paintings, no furniture, no rooms of interest. Nothing. It's an empty mansion. Then you leave nothing caring about how pretty the mansion looks on the outside, as there is nothing insider to retain your attention. That what Dragon Ball Online is... a pretty mansion that is devoid of anything internally interesting.
Yep, that pretty much sums up modern Dragon Ball too. Fancy mansion with no substance.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:34 pm

Grimlock wrote:Dragon Ball Online does have some of the things you mentioned, and probably the other ones it didn't have because it shut down too soon, which his why is extremely idiotic to accuse the game of lacking something since it didn't even had chance/time to show. Conversely, Dragon Ball Super had the chance and it failed...

... What you said is funny because that perfectly applies to 99.9%* of Dragon Ball Super, yet, I do not see you saying that the series lack all those things. And no, there is not even a story to be told in two of its three original sagas (I will not give credits to Dragon Ball Super when it comes to the retellings because the movies are part of the Dragon Ball Z brand, but even if I were to take them into consideration, it would just make things worse for Dragon Ball Super because Golden Freeza saga also has no story at all, and I remember seeing characters regressing in their supposed character development throughout the entire series/de-evolving the personalities). So again, where are the basics of storytelling in this beloved series?

Like I said above, regressing characters, most of the new people they met were forgettable, a false sense of personal conflict in tournaments but Beerus himself once put it in a way that perfectly describes modern Dragon Ball: "it's just all an excuse to fight". And the resolve of the conflicts were generally cheap. Where are you stating those things about the series? Or does it just become a problem when games are the ones coming up with more interesting stuff?
I really don't understand what the point of contention is. I merely pointed out how Dragon Ball Online has no characterisation, no personal conflicts, no character development, no character arcs and no resolution of personal. That is state Dragon Ball Online was/is in. There isn't single new or even old character in Dragon Ball Online that is well defined or even basically characterised.

The journey that the character(s) goes on, how he/she/they progress and how their personalities evolves based on the environments they're exposed to and certain scenarios they encounter, how the character's actions mold and change the dynamic of their surroundings and anyone involved in it... that is story. The original manga has this, all the Dragon Ball movies and TV specials to varying degrees have this, Dragon Ball GT has this, Dragon Ball Super has this, a good chunk of the videogames have this... Dragon Ball Online does not have anything of the sort. It has background information on certain events leading up to the beginning of Dragon Ball Online, but that is not a story. That's information. And I've already said... lore is not substitute for an actual narrative.

The world and universe does not tell the story. The character(s) inside the world and universe tell the story. And the characters in Dragon Ball Online have no story to tell because they have no character to even begin with.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:25 pm

The whole canon vs non canon debate is really bugging me these days because many people now believe there is an official canon when there never has been for this franchise. And when I point this out people on the dragon ball wiki reply with answers that seem to show contempt towards me, telling me I'm wrong. :evil: But then again they probably don't like being told they are wrong too. And many of their points are valid.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:30 pm

Pointing out how the new and improved Broly is just a screaming raging idiot like his predecessor and wanting to have some actual characterization for it apparently makes you some sour puss who wants the whole movie spoiled.

Yes, wanting to see the title character fucking speak is apparently an unreasonable request. This fandom never fails to find new ways to make me detest it.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:53 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Pointing out how the new and improved Broly is just a screaming raging idiot like his predecessor and wanting to have some actual characterization for it apparently makes you some sour puss who wants the whole movie spoiled.

Yes, wanting to see the title character fucking speak is apparently an unreasonable request. This fandom never fails to find new ways to make me detest it.
I understand how you feel. I feel the same way when I say that SSJ4 should be or is equal in power to SSJB.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Shaddy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:57 pm

Those two things don't relate at all?

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:15 am

Shaddy wrote:Those two things don't relate at all?
What two things?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Shaddy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:28 am

Talking about what powerscaling is or should be has nothing to do with being called a buzzkill for hoping Broly is properly characterized.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:11 am

The relation point was the feelings. Not the topics.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Shaddy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:40 am

That...makes it less similar.

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