Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
ekrolo2 wrote:Whenever praise is thrown at Super about how it gives lesser characters a chance to shine even if its stupid as fuck as though internal consistency & utilizing the cast well are mutually exclusive things that can't go together.
Yes a thousand times. It's like that's not allowed to exist for some reason. Can't just put some thought into making things work.
I'll also add extreme ignorance to viewpoints, that are misunderstood and distorted from what they actually are.
Indeed, whenever someone sees another person voice criticism about the series doing a bad job of justifying a characters improvements or action in battle, they automatically assume "You're just a power level fan tard! Toei, Toriyama, Toyotaro don't have to listen to your PL lists!".
No mother fucker, good justifications & scaling is important for any battle series and especially shonen that are all about improving and then showing off the fruits of your labor.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
It still kinda bugs me when Buffy struggles to kill a single uber-vampire and nearly gets killed only to kill hoards of them like they were nothing in the finale.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
She's just kind of enhanced human right? I haven't seen Buffy in ages but she honestly doesn't seem a lot stronger then a regular person despite slayer powers.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:She's just kind of enhanced human right? I haven't seen Buffy in ages but she honestly doesn't seem a lot stronger then a regular person despite slayer powers.
She was always shown as clearly being stronger than a regular human, but they weren't always consistent about how much stronger or in how they dramatized it. Point is that I agree with you. This isn't an issue of noticing some small continuity error that is bound to happen in a series with hundreds of episodes, but any story, including Buffy and DB, would do well to pay attention to things like this. Forgetting it can hinder whatever moment or emotion the writers are going for.
Last edited by ABED on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ekrolo2 wrote:She's just kind of enhanced human right? I haven't seen Buffy in ages but she honestly doesn't seem a lot stronger then a regular person despite slayer powers.
She was always shown as clearly being stronger than a regular human, but they weren't always consistent about how much stronger or in how they dramatized it. Point is that I agree with you. This isn't an issue of noticing some small continuity error that is bound to happen in a series with hundreds of episodes, any story including Buffy and DB would do well to pay attention to things like this. Forgetting it can hinder whatever moment or emotion the writers is going for.
Of course, trying to keep perfect consistency & complete internal logic is a tall order even for the best series and dips are going to happen. But when they're happening every episode in pretty big ways, it doesn't leave a great taste in one's mouth
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Nearly everything about Dragon Ball Heroes after a certain point and when people want to put Dragon Ball Heroes content into something like Xenoverse.
It seems like the entire idea of it is to just stuff as many bland transformations and characters as they can without a single thought, and almost none of it is even halfway good. I apologize to anyone who's gears get grinded by this, but... it's fanfiction tier. I don't know a better way to describe it.
Now granted DBXV has SOME ridiculousness to it, but I never felt like it was quite as absurd. Except SSJ3 Time Breaker Bardock. I'm still salty about that.
Fans who relentlessly try to defend the dub and say the alterations don't change anything. I don't hate people for liking the dub, but it genuinely annoys me when they refuse to acknowledge that in general it's not a good representation of the source material. I for one actually have a lot of love for the Ocean dub, but outside of those first three movies, I would never attempt to use it as a representation of the source material.
The better chunk of the FUNImation dub(s) in general.
Power levels.
Fans who attack people who use the Japanese names. I can't count how many times I've been attacked for using "Saiyajin" (ironic, given most of the people who attack me also use the shorthand SSJ abbreviation without wondering where the J came from), or saying Makankosappo instead of Special Beam Cannon. Even more amusing given the Kai dub used Makankosappo.
Kid Vegeta's hair everywhere outside of Battle of Gods and Minus.
...Also, people who bash Minus acting like it has no redeeming quality whatsoever, even though it ultimately does make more sense than the TV special (though I do love the TV special, and consider it a great standalone story much like many of the original 13 movies).
The first two arcs of Dragon Ball Super in the anime (the retellings of the movies), including the universe punching. ESPECIALLY the universe punching.
Fans who defend the Dragon Ball Super manga when it does the same asspulls and/or worse asspulls than the anime, but bash the anime. Why is SSJ Ikari Trunks considered to be too much, but Goku having Mastered SSJ Blue and Hakai out of nowhere is okay?
Also, Toyotaro's "homages" in general. And his weird Super-Saiyajin God fetish. A lot of Toyotaro things actually...
Non-spiking Super-Saiyajin hair in Xenoverse and it's sequel.
People who still refuse to accept that Budokai Tenkaichi 3 had any flaws (let alone the idea the entire thing was a flaw that occasionally had some game-like bits, but I'm being a bit hyperbolic Time Chamber / Room of Spirit and Time there). It's... it's just not a good game.
Much of the anime coloring. Especially the yellow on the Namekian arms. The pink is fugly.
People who bash the Buu arc and Dragon Ball Super for the Super-Saiyjain Bargain Bin Sale and wonky power scaling, but praise the Cell arc despite it doing the same thing.
Censorship. All of it.
Not my own gears getting ground, but Cell stepping on #16's head. There were gears, and I am convinced Cell was grinding them.
The universe punching in the early part of DBS. Again. Not even joking when that nearly made me give up on Dragon Ball in general. I actually began to question if the series had ever been good. (The glory of the bit with Mr. Satan, Goku, and the tractor restored my faith in the franchise.)
The fact that we've never got a truly remarkable incarnation of the series in English (dub or manga). I mean, I like the English manga well enough, and I'd say it's at least 'good' but it's still not as good as it should be.
My terribad Dragon Ball jokes.
I'm sure there's more, but I already whined and complained said more than enough. (Plus, I'm sure I said like 30 things in there that were highly hypocritical.)
When people say "King Kai only helped Goku & gang for Namek because he wanted them to fight/kill Freeza and to stop him from getting immortality". That is a bull faced fucking lie that nobody with a working long term memory should believe. King Kai gets a freaking heart attack when Goku tells him Freeza is on Namek and he consistently tells Goku and Piccolo to stay the fuck away from Freeza!
King Kai helps them because he wants to help them, not because he thinks they can kill Freeza for him and save the universe.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:When people say "King Kai only helped Goku & gang for Namek because he wanted them to fight/kill Freeza and to stop him from getting immortality". That is a bull faced fucking lie that nobody with a working long term memory should believe. King Kai gets a freaking heart attack when Goku tells him Freeza is on Namek and he consistently tells Goku and Piccolo to stay the fuck away from Freeza!
King Kai helps them because he wants to help them, not because he thinks they can kill Freeza for him and save the universe.
I always thought he only helped them because "Urg, fine. You got to my planet. I got nothing better to do"
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
ekrolo2 wrote:When people say "King Kai only helped Goku & gang for Namek because he wanted them to fight/kill Freeza and to stop him from getting immortality". That is a bull faced fucking lie that nobody with a working long term memory should believe. King Kai gets a freaking heart attack when Goku tells him Freeza is on Namek and he consistently tells Goku and Piccolo to stay the fuck away from Freeza!
King Kai helps them because he wants to help them, not because he thinks they can kill Freeza for him and save the universe.
I always thought he only helped them because "Urg, fine. You got to my planet. I got nothing better to do"
Yes, exactly. But people gotta contrive some reason for him to not help the Trunks timeline people so they turn the bumbling good nature fat sensei into a galactic chess master who uses people for his own ends.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:Yes, exactly. But people gotta contrive some reason for him to not help the Trunks timeline people so they turn the bumbling good nature fat sensei into a galactic chess master who uses people for his own ends.
Unless he can give Trunks verbal lessons on training, what could King Kai even do to help help him? Then again, with all the trauma Trunks has been through, a voice in his head probably wouldn't help
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
ekrolo2 wrote:Yes, exactly. But people gotta contrive some reason for him to not help the Trunks timeline people so they turn the bumbling good nature fat sensei into a galactic chess master who uses people for his own ends.
Unless he can give Trunks verbal lessons on training, what could King Kai even do to help help him? Then again, with all the trauma Trunks has been through, a voice in his head probably wouldn't help
Speed Dial New Namek when he hears about everyone dying to the Androids, revive Piccolo, have him and Gohan ROSAT it up for a couple years and the two of them can stomp 17 and 18 easy. Especially if Piccolo trains with Goku in the afterlife and then fuses with Kami, it would be a total one sided fight in favor of the good guys.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:When people say "King Kai only helped Goku & gang for Namek because he wanted them to fight/kill Freeza and to stop him from getting immortality". That is a bull faced fucking lie that nobody with a working long term memory should believe. King Kai gets a freaking heart attack when Goku tells him Freeza is on Namek and he consistently tells Goku and Piccolo to stay the fuck away from Freeza!
King Kai helps them because he wants to help them, not because he thinks they can kill Freeza for him and save the universe.
I always thought he only helped them because "Urg, fine. You got to my planet. I got nothing better to do"
Yes, exactly. But people gotta contrive some reason for him to not help the Trunks timeline people so they turn the bumbling good nature fat sensei into a galactic chess master who uses people for his own ends.
Well, I just handwave Kaio not helping Trunks as him not noticing what's happening on Earth. Kaio had no idea that the androids and Cell existed until Goku came along and told him. As for why Goku didn't check on Earth, I like to think that he didn't keep his body since he didn't die a heroic death but just died out of natural causes instead, that would exempt him from keeping his body and he would just go to Heaven/reincarnate instead. That's a load of headcanon though and it still doesn't explain why Kaio didn't contact Trunks immediately and try to find Namek for him after future Gohan died (or Kuririn, or Piccolo, or anyone else besides Vegeta and Goku), who most certainly would have kept his body.
Kanassa wrote:
I always thought he only helped them because "Urg, fine. You got to my planet. I got nothing better to do"
Yes, exactly. But people gotta contrive some reason for him to not help the Trunks timeline people so they turn the bumbling good nature fat sensei into a galactic chess master who uses people for his own ends.
Well, I just handwave Kaio not helping Trunks as him not noticing what's happening on Earth. Kaio had no idea that the androids and Cell existed until Goku came along and told him. As for why Goku didn't check on Earth, I like to think that he didn't keep his body since he didn't die a heroic death but just died out of natural causes instead, that would exempt him from keeping his body and he would just go to Heaven/reincarnate instead. That's a load of headcanon though and it still doesn't explain why Kaio didn't contact Trunks immediately and try to find Namek for him after future Gohan died (or Kuririn, or Piccolo, or anyone else besides Vegeta and Goku), who most certainly would have kept his body.
Hey, Gohan may have died a heroic death... But he still knocked out a child a few minutes before! Child Abusers don't get bodies
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
How Dragonballs are always collected off screen nowadays always annoys me,
How many times have the Earth's dragonballs been used in Super (BOG, Frieza, Post Frieza, Pre U6 tournament, Post Goku Black arc)
and then we have the Super Dragonballs which we were led to believe would have the excitement of being hunted down, but Champa already has 6, with a convenient place for the 7th, then Zamasu gets them off screen, and now they've been collected off screen for this tournament.
The post above mine is so beautiful. More people should care about stuff like that.
Spoiler:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Gog wrote:The cell saga/android saga is the worst thing Akira Toriyama ever made. And nothing has ever actually managed to come close to it, after it. Even the terrible asspulls in the FT saga, weren't as bad as that. But of course this is all my opinion.
You've just made a new best friend.
Marz wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm
"Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"
This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:The post above mine is so beautiful. More people should care about stuff like that.
I think my post frieza may have actually been Namek's dragonballs to revive Piccolo (I can't quite remember off hand)
but then also there's Kibito Kai using Namek's dragonballs to unfuse too, though they don't really scatter so it's less of a big deal but would've been nice to see Porunga.
ekrolo2 wrote:Whenever praise is thrown at Super about how it gives lesser characters a chance to shine even if its stupid as fuck as though internal consistency & utilizing the cast well are mutually exclusive things that can't go together.
Yes a thousand times. It's like that's not allowed to exist for some reason. Can't just put some thought into making things work.
I'll also add extreme ignorance to viewpoints, that are misunderstood and distorted from what they actually are.
Indeed, whenever someone sees another person voice criticism about the series doing a bad job of justifying a characters improvements or action in battle, they automatically assume "You're just a power level fan tard! Toei, Toriyama, Toyotaro don't have to listen to your PL lists!".
No mother fucker, good justifications & scaling is important for any battle series and especially shonen that are all about improving and then showing off the fruits of your labor.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Yes a thousand times. It's like that's not allowed to exist for some reason. Can't just put some thought into making things work.
I'll also add extreme ignorance to viewpoints, that are misunderstood and distorted from what they actually are.
Indeed, whenever someone sees another person voice criticism about the series doing a bad job of justifying a characters improvements or action in battle, they automatically assume "You're just a power level fan tard! Toei, Toriyama, Toyotaro don't have to listen to your PL lists!".
No mother fucker, good justifications & scaling is important for any battle series and especially shonen that are all about improving and then showing off the fruits of your labor.
Gintama, JoJo, OPM,Boruto say no to that.
I can't mention anything in regards to Boruto, and Gintama considering that I've not seen any of it, so I can't say anything in regards to it. But, One Punch Man I would view as a Seinen, and a subversion of the typical Shonen tropes too. Satiama getting his infinite one shot powers with little to no effort actually works in that universe, and for the story on a whole; Because it's a Subversion of the typical Shonen Story. For JoJo, parts 1, and 2 both specifically show off the labor Johnathan, Joseph, (Caesar, and Zeppeli) undertake to improve their skill in the craft of Hamon. Part 3 is unique in that they improve from life, and death situations, so essentially for Part 3 every Stand user they face, and defeat is their training.
