Things that grind your gears

[ekrolo2]

I hear you, but I think it goes too far and doesn't hold water. I think canon debates can be frustrating since so many are confused by the concept itself, but DB is continuity heavy.

I'm mostly annoyed by it since the same people who obsess over Dragon Ball canon and what counts and doesn't, going out of their way to mention it at every given opportunity like ComicBook.com, stop caring when you jump over to other series. I don't hear anyone using the "not canon" card on the DC Animated Universe or the Marvel Cinematic Universe to dismiss them because they're not part of the main line comics continuity for example the same way people will dismiss GT or either version of Super. DB set precedent for alternate universes and continuities long before Z was even a thing.

[ABED]

I hear you, but I think it goes too far and doesn't hold water. I think canon debates can be frustrating since so many are confused by the concept itself, but DB is continuity heavy.

I'm mostly annoyed by it since the same people who obsess over Dragon Ball canon and what counts and doesn't, going out of their way to mention it at every given opportunity like ComicBook.com, stop caring when you jump over to other series. I don't hear anyone using the "not canon" card on the DC Animated Universe or the Marvel Cinematic Universe to dismiss them because they're not part of the main line comics continuity for example the same way people will dismiss GT or either version of Super. DB set precedent for alternate universes and continuities long before Z was even a thing.

I've sinced stop caring so much about having things all connect. I tend to enjoy things for what they are. I enjoy continuity and callbacks, but I think people take it too far and miss out on a lot of great stuff simply because whoever holds the rights chooses to disregard some story to make theirs work.

[Robo4900]

You're right; nothing is canon. There is no "Canon".

This is a minor gripe of mine. What does this even mean?

Toriyama quite literally at one point stated that his intention with Dragon Ball was never to tell a continuous, consistent story, in fact he said he wanted to produce a contradictory story for young boys in Japan to enjoy. Taking things seriously, and actually going into "What counts?" and such will just leave you with a headache, because the only run that makes any amount of somewhat consistent sense is the original manga. Does that mean that if you're watching the Z anime, you're seeing tons of "Non-canon", "Unnecessary" material that "Doesn't count", and that if you then move onto GT, you're going 100% into this material that "Doesn't count", just because the anime added extra material that often expands the world and story in ways many people appreciate and have a real love for, but is rarely any more contradictory than the main story...? (As I remember it, there's only about 2 filler scenes that create any continuity errors with the two previous anime)

Ultimately, the way to look at Dragon Ball "Canon" if you're not a GT-hating manga purist who just wants to be smarmy and win arguments on the internet for no other reason than simply enjoying being right, is that Dragon Ball is simply a collection of stories that take whatever material they need as "Canon" to make their story work best -- the Z anime takes the DB anime and the broad strokes of some of the movies; Kai takes the DB anime's broad strokes; the original 17 movies take bits and pieces of various parts of the anime shows; GT takes the DB and Z animes, and the broad strokes of a couple of the movies; Super takes Kai and the broad strokes of DB; Battle Of Gods, Yo Son Goku, and ResF take the broad strokes of DB and Z...

Dragon Ball is more like a legend that's been told and retold in various contradictory and often barely internally-consistent forms throughout its existence in culture; trying to apply a rigid "Canon" structure that makes any real sense will just get your head spinning, or be frustrating and weird. The answer that there's no rigid canon, and that things are just canon relative to each-other is a simple answer that solves it all. Ultimately, people are going to watch/read whatever version they prefer, and it's probably going to give them a different experience with many alternate details compared to whatever way someone else reads/watches it, so it's better to just embrace that and go with everyone enjoying whatever version they prefer rather than fussing over whether they watched the "Correct" version or what parts they watched are "Canon". Canon arguments generally tend to mostly exist so people who don't like GT can feel superior, or people who prefer Kai can feel superior, or whatever the hell else. Nothing of value can be gained from declaring certain parts "Non-canon", especially not by taking some random fluff thing Toriyama wrote about how he enjoys GT several years ago completely out of context and using it to further a point that, really, doesn't matter in the slightest.

Which stories in Dragon Ball matter the most to you? Which stories do you think are the important ones that factor into the story? Which tellings do you prefer? These are the real questions. "Canon" isn't a rigid concept that can or should apply to Dragon Ball; all you should spend any time thinking about is how you prefer to think of the stories tying into one-another. Dragon Ball was created to bring you joy, not to confuse you over whether your favourite material "Counts" in the grand scheme of things, so just watch the show, read the manga, watch the movies... Just enjoy it, and stop worrying about nonsense that only matters in online discourse with people who think they're better than you.

I hear you, but I think it goes too far and doesn't hold water. I think canon debates can be frustrating since so many are confused by the concept itself, but DB is continuity heavy.

I'm mostly annoyed by it since the same people who obsess over Dragon Ball canon and what counts and doesn't, going out of their way to mention it at every given opportunity like ComicBook.com, stop caring when you jump over to other series. I don't hear anyone using the "not canon" card on the DC Animated Universe or the Marvel Cinematic Universe to dismiss them because they're not part of the main line comics continuity for example the same way people will dismiss GT or either version of Super. DB set precedent for alternate universes and continuities long before Z was even a thing.

I've sinced stop caring so much about having things all connect. I tend to enjoy things for what they are. I enjoy continuity and callbacks, but I think people take it too far and miss out on a lot of great stuff simply because whoever holds the rights chooses to disregard some story to make theirs work.

Basically exactly what I'm going for here; honestly, people arguing about canon in the ways I'm vilifying here grind my gears more than almost anything in all of DB-dom.

[ekrolo2]

Toriyama quite literally at one point stated that his intention with Dragon Ball was never to tell a continuous, consistent story, in fact he said he wanted to produce a contradictory story for young boys in Japan to enjoy. Taking things seriously, and actually going into "What counts?" and such will just leave you with a headache, because the only run that makes any amount of somewhat consistent sense is the original manga. Does that mean that if you're watching the Z anime, you're seeing tons of "Non-canon" material, and that if you then move onto GT, you're going 100% into "Non-canon" material, just because the anime added extra material that often expands the world, but is rarely any more contradictory than the main story(As I remember it, there's only about 2 filler scenes that create any continuity errors)...

Ultimately, the way to look at Dragon Ball canon if you're not a GT-hating manga purist who just wants to be smarmy and win arguments on the internet for no other reason than simply enjoying being right, is that Dragon Ball is simply a collection of stories that take whatever material they need as canon. The Z anime takes the DB anime and the broad strokes of some of the movies, Kai takes the DB anime's broad strokes, the movies take bits and pieces of various parts of the anime shows, GT takes the DB and Z animes, and the broad strokes of a couple of the movies, Super takes Kai and the broad strokes of DB, Battle Of Gods, Yo Son Goku, and ResF take the broad strokes of DB and Z...

Dragon Ball is more like a legend that's been told and retold in various contradictory and often barely internally-consistent forms throughout its existence in culture; trying to apply a rigid "Canon" structure that makes any real sense will just get your head spinning, or be frustrating and weird. The answer that there's no rigid canon, and that things are just canon relative to each-other is a simple answer that solves it all. Ultimately, people are going to watch/read whatever version they prefer, and it's probably going to give them a different experience with many alternate details compared to whatever way someone else reads/watches it, so it's better to just embrace that and go with everyone enjoying whatever version they prefer rather than fussing over whether they watched the "Correct" version or what parts they watched are "Canon". Canon arguments generally tend to mostly exist so people who don't like GT can feel superior, or people who prefer Kai can feel superior, or whatever the hell else. Nothing of value can be gained from declaring certain parts "Non-canon", especially not by taking some random fluff thing Toriyama wrote about how he enjoys GT several years ago completely out of context and using it to further a point that, really, doesn't matter in the slightest.

Do you have a link to the point about not telling a continuous, consistent story? Cause I'd really like to have that for future reference sake.

[ABED]

I second that request because I've never heard that and despite his intent, he did write a decade long story with a lot of continuity.

The difference between DB and the kind of legends you're referring to is the latter were passed down verbally, whereas DB was one story in a mass produced publication.

The way in which I like to know what's canon in a world of reboots and retcons is I like to understand the context of the new story.

[Robo4900]

Do you have a link to the point about not telling a continuous, consistent story? Cause I'd really like to have that for future reference sake.

Y'know, ever since I first read the quote, I've been trying to find it again, and I've had no success. I'm pretty sure it was a Kanzenshuu translation, but I have no idea where. Judging by the fact my searches are turning up nothing, I may have the wording wrong, but I am certain I read something like this around Kanzenshuu somewhere.

I suppose there is this, which is close to what I'm thinking of, but it isn't the quote I'm remembering:

My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. (laughs) But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.

It's possibly this is the quote I'm thinking of and I was just misremembering, but either way, it's somewhat close to what I'm getting at here, so it'll have to do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If anyone else out there is familiar with the quote I'm referring to, please do speak up! The fact I can't find it is really bugging me.

I second that request because I've never heard that and despite his intent, he did write a decade long story with a lot of continuity.

The difference between DB and the kind of legends you're referring to is the latter were passed down verbally, whereas DB was one story in a mass produced publication.

Fair enough. Apologies that I can't remember where I heard this, or what the exact quote was. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I'm sure I read this in an interview with Toriyama somewhere, I just can't remember where.
In any case, while it is true that DB wasn't passed down verbally, Toriyama is notoriously bad at remembering things, and very much not focused on following up on where he's been, but rather moving forward and doing whatever's next to the best of his ability, which I think the general style and attitudes of Dragon Ball continuity reflects; Hiya Dragon was from DBZ movie 3, so are we going to address why he's hanging around in the Z anime? No, that would be tedious, we're just going to tell the story, and hopefully you'll enjoy it.
Similarly, Toei don't care about "Canon", they just care about delivering the next Dragon Ball story to you, Shueisha and co. just want to give you a fun video game to enjoy, or a spinoff manga that you might find fun, etc... Is "That Time I Got Reincarnated As Yamcha" canonical to anything? Who cares, just read it and enjoy it for what it is. Fussing about what "Counts" in the overall story will just frustrate you, and take away the joy you could be having at just reading/watching the given work. See also: Doctor Who.

The way in which I like to know what's canon in a world of reboots and retcons is I like to understand the context of the new story.

Which is exactly what I'm getting at, essentially; whichever work you're watching has things it takes as canonical to itself, and it's usually fairly obvious; if you're watching GT, you really ought to have watched DB and Z first, if you're watching Super, you should watch DB and Z or DB and Kai(Or just Kai, if you're an American dub fan ) first, if you're watching any of the original 13 Z movies, you should have seen the anime that's lead up to that point, the first three DB movies are a trilogy that stands alone, the 10th anniversary movie is its own standalone, BOG and RF are a midquel to the original manga story or the DB and Z anime or the DB and Kai anime...
It's all fairly simple, it's just that people try to overcomplicate it by talking about different timelines, continuities, "Real canon", etc. Best to just look at it in this way. Which story is the "Real one"? Who cares, all that matters is which one you enjoy, and which one you're watching right now, and how it relates to the past works it takes elements and history from.

[supersaiyanZero]

two base theory. Can't have a discussion about power scaling in DBS without somebody bringing up that convoluted garbage

The fan's acceptance of the trash that is modern Dragonball. Palette swaps, rehashing old plot points (Piccolo "dying" again lol), mediocre everything. It just makes me so..mad.

How does it bother you that other people enjoy something? Like it's fine if you don't enjoy it but it doesn't make any sense for you to be mad at somebody else for liking something.

This is snowflake wook logic. Yes, it makes me mad because by supporting this garbage it opened the floodgates for Toei and shueisha to throw away all fucks given when it comes to presenting a quality continuation of Dragonball. You vote with your dollar. The same way a lot of these younger fans supported the mediocre dragonball games that have been churned out like a yearly christmas turd which in turn spawned decades of just outright offensively bad games, despite the fact that this franchise is ripe for top contention amongst the fighting game genre.

You can't argue that Dragonball Super was well written, well animated, cohesive, or well produced. That is just objectively the way it is and even though anime quality in general is on the decline, I never imagined that this franchise can stoop so low. Whether it's Toriyama's fault or Toei/Shueisha I don't really care, because a large part of the blame falls on the fans for supporting this direction. People like you (and I mean this in a very not targeting way) have nobody to blame for poorly animated SSj4 Broli Ultimate Instinct vs Final Final form Golden Cooler than yourselves. I mean, when Piccolo "sacrificed" himself for Gohan in Super which was nothing but a poorly animated frame by frame rehash of a very memorable moment in the Saiyan Saga, that should have really sparked some sort of outrage and a lightbulb should have went off that this is not the Dragonball continuation the series deserves. But no, and that really grinds my gears.

[Shaddy]

I guess something that grinds my gears is someone so wrapped-up in their own ego that they call their opinions "objective fact" and shit on others for enjoying part of a Japanese children's cartoon that they don't like. That's an incredibly douchey and entitled way to act.

[PFM18]

I guess something that grinds my gears is someone so wrapped-up in their own ego that they call their opinions "objective fact" and shit on others for enjoying part of a Japanese children's cartoon that they don't like. That's an incredibly douchey and entitled way to act.

Yeah someone got banned for that essentially lol. None of this stuff is entirely objective it is always up to interpretation to some extent.

[Champa The Destroyer]

two base theory. Can't have a discussion about power scaling in DBS without somebody bringing up that convoluted garbage

The fan's acceptance of the trash that is modern Dragonball. Palette swaps, rehashing old plot points (Piccolo "dying" again lol), mediocre everything. It just makes me so..mad.

How does it bother you that other people enjoy something? Like it's fine if you don't enjoy it but it doesn't make any sense for you to be mad at somebody else for liking something.

This is snowflake wook logic. Yes, it makes me mad because by supporting this garbage it opened the floodgates for Toei and shueisha to throw away all fucks given when it comes to presenting a quality continuation of Dragonball. You vote with your dollar. The same way a lot of these younger fans supported the mediocre dragonball games that have been churned out like a yearly christmas turd which in turn spawned decades of just outright offensively bad games, despite the fact that this franchise is ripe for top contention amongst the fighting game genre.

You can't argue that Dragonball Super was well written, well animated, cohesive, or well produced. That is just objectively the way it is and even though anime quality in general is on the decline, I never imagined that this franchise can stoop so low. Whether it's Toriyama's fault or Toei/Shueisha I don't really care, because a large part of the blame falls on the fans for supporting this direction. People like you (and I mean this in a very not targeting way) have nobody to blame for poorly animated SSj4 Broli Ultimate Instinct vs Final Final form Golden Cooler than yourselves. I mean, when Piccolo "sacrificed" himself for Gohan in Super which was nothing but a poorly animated frame by frame rehash of a very memorable moment in the Saiyan Saga, that should have really sparked some sort of outrage and a lightbulb should have went off that this is not the Dragonball continuation the series deserves. But no, and that really grinds my gears.

First off, when people use the term "snowflake" it's usually used for someone who gets offended by something mild, and even that use of the term is controversial. Somebody voicing their opinion is just about the opposite of "snowflake". Second, there's this thing called "opinions" and because of this thing called "opinions", we know that all art is subjective. Somebody can say that the Namek Arc is complete trash and that Freeza is a garbage villain. That's okay though, because that's their opinion. There's nothing wrong about it, and they are not at fault for hating the Namek Arc.


This type of post that I responded to is what grinds my gears.

[ekrolo2]

Whenever someone tells me I should stop expecting Phantom of the Opera or War & Peace whenever I criticize DB story, specifically the modern era. Piss. Off.

Just because DB was simple it didn't make its story any less worthwhile or effective back when it was actually good. I loathe this new movement that wants to retroactively paint the entire series as an absolute piece of shit just so Super of all things can look better.

What does it say about certain fans when they need to tear down the thing they purport to love just so a bad sequel can get excused?

[Lord Beerus]

Just because DB was simple it didn't make its story any less worthwhile or effective back when it was actually good. I loathe this new movement that wants to retroactively paint the entire series as an absolute piece of shit just so Super of all things can look better.

Who says this?

[PFM18]

Just because DB was simple it didn't make its story any less worthwhile or effective back when it was actually good. I loathe this new movement that wants to retroactively paint the entire series as an absolute piece of shit just so Super of all things can look better.

It is just a matter of the fact that Super may have flaws, and the original also has flaws, but both of them can have flaws but simultaneously have more than enough strengths to outweigh the negatives. That is the case for both but when people criticize Super they tend to look at it as though flaws/problems are exclusive to that series and absent in the others.

[Alruneia]

This fandom has a tendency to assume extremes, completely ignoring the chance of a middle ground.
For example:
If you like the Super manga, you must hate the Super anime, and conversely, if you hate the Super anime, you must like the Super manga.
If you like the Super anime, you must hate the Super manga, and conversely, if you hate the Super manga, you must like the Super anime.
Is liking both or disliking both illegal or something? Not everything has to be so black and white.
Similarly, you can apparently only like either Super or GT, and you have to dislike the other. If you want development for the next generation throughout Super, you apparently automatically also want to replace Goku and Vegeta entirely.
It becomes really difficult to discuss Dragon Ball when you keep being met with this black-and-white view.

[The Patrolman]

Just because DB was simple it didn't make its story any less worthwhile or effective back when it was actually good. I loathe this new movement that wants to retroactively paint the entire series as an absolute piece of shit just so Super of all things can look better.

Who says this?

Quite a few

[Ripper 30]

When people say that everyone in the Japanese version sounds like girls. If Banjo Ginga, Norio Wakamoto, Ryuzaburo Otomo, Tessho Genda, Akira Kamiya and Kenji Utsumi sound like girls, then I don't know what a man sounds like.

are they serious? tbh, i don't even find Nozawa's Goku feminine like many claim. Feminine voice is something we hear from Kurapika, Haku or Kurama (YYH).

Making assessments off a cursory review of the raw tone of voice is one of the biggest pitfalls when new fans come in to the Japanese version of the show.

[GT_Goten10]

when people say something is trash but can not bring any arguments

2 typical scenarios:


A:“DBS is trash“
I:why?
A:“because the Animation sucks &They made Vegeta a dancer & a cook“
I:only „because of that“?
A:Yes

Or
A:“GT sucks“
I:“why?“
A:“because they have given Vegeta a mustache and a new haircut as well,but hair from Saiyajins does not change“
I:“but Toriyama himself designed it“
A:...“& because of the para Para brothers“

[GT_Goten10]

when people say something is trash but can not bring any arguments

2 typical scenarios:


A:“DBS is trash“
I:why?
A:“because the Animation sucks &They made Vegeta a dancer & a cook“
I:“Are these your arguments to talk bad about the whole show?“
A:Yes

Or
A:“GT sucks“
I:“why?“
A:“because they have given Vegeta a mustache and a new haircut as well,but hair from Saiyajins does not change“
I:“but Toriyama himself designed it“
A:...“& because of the para Para brothers“

[ekrolo2]

When someone says Saiyan's keep getting near death power-ups after Namek. They don't. The only exceptions are freak cases like Cell and manga Black. There is absolutely no mention of anyone getting beaten to near death, healing and receiving a boost from it.

[Lord Beerus]

When somebody says that a story gave you no expectations for it being good, so you shouldn't feel disappointed when said story ends up being underwhelming by its own merits. That is such a horseshit cop-out excuse for poor and/or undercooked writing that needs to die in a dumpster fire.