Things that grind your gears

[Lord Beerus]

The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.

I mean, Luffy can be in every episode of One Piece, even if it's filler, yet no one complaints about him being shoe-horn or taking 'shine' away from others. This seems to be a Dragon Ball fandom issue when they think characters can't do anything as long as Goku is within the same space (something Z reinforced), which imo, makes the characters in Dragon Ball weak since a secondary character should be able to function with the main character.

Goku was a total crutch character in Z and it brutually limited the scope of the narrative because, as you said, the characters were so dependant on him bailing them out of sticky situation that the plot couldn't be explored that much until Goku came onto the scene. The Saiyan arc? Wait for Goku to arrive. The Namek/Freeza arc? Wait for Goku to arrive. The Android/Cell arc? Wait for Goku to get better and stronger. As other have mentioned it makes Goku much less of a character and more of plot device. It was especially jarring on Namek where Goku got benched twice. One of the great things about the Majin Boo arc is they at least addressed this issue. But it didn't matter in the end of that arc either becuase, guess what, Goku saved the day again. And what's even worse in that arc is that Goku could have prevented the events in that arc from ever escalting in the way they did.

[ekrolo2]

Super fixes the problem of Toriyama removing Goku from the story just so he can have a big damn hero moment or two per arc but the problem is Goku's such a nothing character after Namek. Whatever developments are attempted to give to him like letting someone else do the fighting instead of him are quickly and inorganically removed, the Boo arc is a particular mess where Toriyama has him do like 5 180s on his opinions on stuff before it's all said and done.

Super is kind of the same in this regard where it's a constant revolving door of "Goku, stop dicking around!" and then Goku momentarily heeding this advice only to ignore it so we can repeat this over and over again in perpetuity. It also doesn't help that most of Goku's personality now is being kind of a goofy idiot, he never had great range as a character in terms of emotions but what was there is totally gone.

I'd also use the praise of Super letting other characters do stuff as a wholly superficial compliment because THAT shit is inorganic to the nth degree. The writers want Krillin to be more involved, so, instead of organically raising his abilities to where Krillin not being worthless feels earned, he just does what Piccolo did in Z: jerks off screen and becomes about 5000000 times stronger with no good reason for it. Fuck, EVERYONE does what Piccolo did in Z. That's inorganic story telling, it blatantly breaks one of the core rules of good writing, the need to make a plot necessary change or advancement feel like a natural extension or end result of a person in the stories efforts or choices. Super flat the fuck out fails at this all the time and the supporting casts "relevance" is THE example of this.

[ABED]

I don't understand this argument. Just because he's the main character it doesn't mean he has to be everywhere and anywhere at once. This tournament is supposed to have 80 characters, popping in to see Goku for the umpteenth time isnt enjoyable and appears very jarring after a while.

I don't understand how anyone can say a main character is shoe horned into their own story.

characters were so dependant on him bailing them out of sticky situation that the plot couldn't be explored that much until Goku came onto the scene

Say it with me folks, "HE'S THE MAIN CHARACTER!" He's not a crutch anymore than Batman is a crutch. Of course Gordon and Robin aren't going to be the one's to save the day. If they didn't need Batman, he shouldn't be the hero of the story. And how did keeping the focus on Goku limit the scope of the narrative?

For one, a show like Dragon Ball is a whole different ball game than 24, come on. A 12-24 episode season that takes place in the span of a single day really cant be compared to a show like DB. And just because it's his show, it doesn't mean they have to shoe-horn him into every episode. It's kind of hard for me to explain considering you haven't seen anything in DBS, but there are some spots where he has legitimately no place being and they just put him in to go "look guys it's Goku did you forget about him??"

You are getting too hung up on the concretes to see the fundamental point. No, they aren't the same show, but the principle applies. Don't get bogged down in the minutia. I get it, even the main character doesn't have to be in every scene, but he should be the focal point of the story, or else, why make them the main character.

jerks off screen and becomes about 5000000 times stronger with no good reason for it.

Piccolo merging twice is a good explanation.

[Dbzfan94]

I get it, even the main character doesn't have to be in every scene, but he should be the focal point of the story, or else, why make them the main character.

I agree he should be the focal point of the story, I'm not saying he shouldn't. All of saying Goku doesn't need to appear every episode. They still have Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Roshi, Freeza, 17, and 18 from U7 to focus on besides Goku. I don't think anyone would disagree if I said leave Goku out for 2 episodes to show the others, no harm in that.

[ABED]

I get it, even the main character doesn't have to be in every scene, but he should be the focal point of the story, or else, why make them the main character.

I agree he should be the focal point of the story, I'm not saying he shouldn't. All of saying Goku doesn't need to appear every episode. They still have Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Roshi, Freeza, 17, and 18 from U7 to focus on besides Goku. I don't think anyone would disagree if I said leave Goku out for 2 episodes to show the others, no harm in that.

Technically no harm, but there's no reason to keep him out of an entire episode.

[HeroR]

Goku was a total crutch character in Z and it brutually limited the scope of the narrative because, as you said, the characters were so dependant on him bailing them out of sticky situation that the plot couldn't be explored that much until Goku came onto the scene. The Saiyan arc? Wait for Goku to arrive. The Namek/Freeza arc? Wait for Goku to arrive. The Android/Cell arc? Wait for Goku to get better and stronger. As other have mentioned it makes Goku much less of a character and more of plot device. It was especially jarring on Namek where Goku got benched twice. One of the great things about the Majin Boo arc is they at least addressed this issue. But it didn't matter in the end of that arc either becuase, guess what, Goku saved the day again. And what's even worse in that arc is that Goku could have prevented the events in that arc from ever escalting in the way they did.

The Android Saga did it for me since it was by far the most contrive benching Goku in the series. I remembered being pissed when it happened. Didn't help that in the anime, Roshi lampshaded how Goku was there from the start unlike other times. It becomes worse when you considered that Piccolo after he merged with Kami had knowledge of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but didn't tell anyone. Even if he didn't think a year was possible, he could of had the Saiyans or humans used it for month so they could get stronger to help him since he wasn't sure he could beat all the androids.

Yeah, TFS Cell said it best - Know your place and wait for Goku.

I don't understand this argument. Just because he's the main character it doesn't mean he has to be everywhere and anywhere at once. This tournament is supposed to have 80 characters, popping in to see Goku for the umpteenth time isnt enjoyable and appears very jarring after a while.

I don't understand how anyone can say a main character is shoe horned into their own story.

characters were so dependant on him bailing them out of sticky situation that the plot couldn't be explored that much until Goku came onto the scene

Say it with me folks, "HE'S THE MAIN CHARACTER!" He's not a crutch anymore than Batman is a crutch. Of course Gordon and Robin aren't going to be the one's to save the day. If they didn't need Batman, he shouldn't be the hero of the story. And how did keeping the focus on Goku limit the scope of the narrative?

For one, a show like Dragon Ball is a whole different ball game than 24, come on. A 12-24 episode season that takes place in the span of a single day really cant be compared to a show like DB. And just because it's his show, it doesn't mean they have to shoe-horn him into every episode. It's kind of hard for me to explain considering you haven't seen anything in DBS, but there are some spots where he has legitimately no place being and they just put him in to go "look guys it's Goku did you forget about him??"

You are getting too hung up on the concretes to see the fundamental point. No, they aren't the same show, but the principle applies. Don't get bogged down in the minutia. I get it, even the main character doesn't have to be in every scene, but he should be the focal point of the story, or else, why make them the main character.

jerks off screen and becomes about 5000000 times stronger with no good reason for it.

Piccolo merging twice is a good explanation.

Using other anime for example, it is perfectly possible not to have the secondary characters depended on the main character and move the story. One Piece does a great job at this, although it does goes too far at times.

[Dbzfan94]

I get it, even the main character doesn't have to be in every scene, but he should be the focal point of the story, or else, why make them the main character.

I agree he should be the focal point of the story, I'm not saying he shouldn't. All of saying Goku doesn't need to appear every episode. They still have Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Roshi, Freeza, 17, and 18 from U7 to focus on besides Goku. I don't think anyone would disagree if I said leave Goku out for 2 episodes to show the others, no harm in that.

Technically no harm, but there's no reason to keep him out of an entire episode.

The original series and GT did it, which worked for it's benefit. I don't see why Super can't do the same.

[ABED]

I agree he should be the focal point of the story, I'm not saying he shouldn't. All of saying Goku doesn't need to appear every episode. They still have Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Roshi, Freeza, 17, and 18 from U7 to focus on besides Goku. I don't think anyone would disagree if I said leave Goku out for 2 episodes to show the others, no harm in that.

Technically no harm, but there's no reason to keep him out of an entire episode.

The original series and GT did it, which worked for it's benefit. I don't see why Super can't do the same.

Which episodes are you referring to?

Using other anime for example, it is perfectly possible not to have the secondary characters depended on the main character and move the story. One Piece does a great job at this, although it does goes too far at times.

Main characters don't have to solve every problem, but they have to be the overall focus. DB is a fighting show. The problems are solved with brute force. Of course the secondary character will need the main character to defeat the big bad.

[HeroR]

I agree he should be the focal point of the story, I'm not saying he shouldn't. All of saying Goku doesn't need to appear every episode. They still have Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Roshi, Freeza, 17, and 18 from U7 to focus on besides Goku. I don't think anyone would disagree if I said leave Goku out for 2 episodes to show the others, no harm in that.

Technically no harm, but there's no reason to keep him out of an entire episode.

The original series and GT did it, which worked for it's benefit. I don't see why Super can't do the same.

Thinking about, Goku appeared in every episode of Dragon Ball and GT. The big different was that in Dragon Ball, the secondary characters could work outside of Goku like he King Piccolo Saga. Although, he was the main driver of the Red Ribbon Army Saga.

I'm drawing a blank, I can't think of a GT episode he wasn't there, while Super did have episodes without Goku. Like Goku wasn't in Episode 88, which was all Gohan and Piccolo's training and he was barely in Episode 91.

Main characters don't have to solve the main problem, and DB is a fighting show. The problems are solved with brute force. Of course the secondary character will need the main character to defeat the big bad.

True, but I was talking main story points like how Luffy was barely in Alabasta after he got impaled by Crocodile, yet the story didn't stale like Dragon Ball usually does. Then there's Skypeia where the story really did stopped because of Luffy's absence, which is why that arc is not well-liked among other thins. Also, Marineford was solved without Luffy who fainted near the end and I still say Luffy shouldn't have gotten the final fight with Doffy since so many other people who were just as strong as Luffy could have done it.

[Dbzfan94]

Technically no harm, but there's no reason to keep him out of an entire episode.

The original series and GT did it, which worked for it's benefit. I don't see why Super can't do the same.

Thinking about, Goku appeared in every episode of Dragon Ball and GT. The big different was that in Dragon Ball, the secondary characters could work outside of Goku like he King Piccolo Saga. Although, he was the main driver of the Red Ribbon Army Saga.

I'm drawing a blank, I can't think of a GT episode he wasn't there, while Super did have episodes without Goku. Like Goku wasn't in Episode 88, which was all Gohan and Piccolo's training and he was barely in Episode 91.

Cant remember off the top of my head for DB-Z exactly, but in GT I recall the stuff when Baby attacks Goten/Gohan/Vegeta on Earth having a whole 2 episodes related to it and never showing Goku/Trunks/Pan in space in that period of time.

[ABED]

The original series and GT did it, which worked for it's benefit. I don't see why Super can't do the same.

Thinking about, Goku appeared in every episode of Dragon Ball and GT. The big different was that in Dragon Ball, the secondary characters could work outside of Goku like he King Piccolo Saga. Although, he was the main driver of the Red Ribbon Army Saga.

I'm drawing a blank, I can't think of a GT episode he wasn't there, while Super did have episodes without Goku. Like Goku wasn't in Episode 88, which was all Gohan and Piccolo's training and he was barely in Episode 91.

Cant remember off the top of my head for DB-Z exactly, but in GT I recall the stuff when Baby attacks Goten/Gohan/Vegeta on Earth having a whole 2 episodes related to it and never showing Goku/Trunks/Pan in space in that period of time.

Maybe, but I recall at least checking in with them even if at the very end.

[Dbzfan94]

Thinking about, Goku appeared in every episode of Dragon Ball and GT. The big different was that in Dragon Ball, the secondary characters could work outside of Goku like he King Piccolo Saga. Although, he was the main driver of the Red Ribbon Army Saga.

I'm drawing a blank, I can't think of a GT episode he wasn't there, while Super did have episodes without Goku. Like Goku wasn't in Episode 88, which was all Gohan and Piccolo's training and he was barely in Episode 91.

Cant remember off the top of my head for DB-Z exactly, but in GT I recall the stuff when Baby attacks Goten/Gohan/Vegeta on Earth having a whole 2 episodes related to it and never showing Goku/Trunks/Pan in space in that period of time.

Maybe, but I recall at least checking in with them even if at the very end.

Well, yeah, I guess you can count that if that's how it went down. lol

[HeroR]

Cant remember off the top of my head for DB-Z exactly, but in GT I recall the stuff when Baby attacks Goten/Gohan/Vegeta on Earth having a whole 2 episodes related to it and never showing Goku/Trunks/Pan in space in that period of time.

But that is the classic, "Goku's away and thing get worse". I thought you meant the character solving an issue like the Garlic Jr Saga.

[ABED]

I think many want the show to be an ensemble show where they all carry the show together as a team, but DB was never like that. Goku was the main character from the beginning. It's a story about his journey. It does "grind my gears" that some don't understand that or at least seem to not. I'm not point fingers, just so everyone knows.

[ekrolo2]

I think many want the show to be an ensemble show where they all carry the show together as a team, but DB was never like that. Goku was the main character from the beginning. It's a story about his journey. It does "grind my gears" that some don't understand that or at least seem to not.

I think people would drop the ensemble idea a lot easier if new material didn't bring people up only to spotlight how useless they are. Gohan is a really good example where the stories constantly try to have him appear but he doesn't actually help with anything so he looks like a pointless waste of space. There's a moment with him getting angry about nobody talking him about this weeks bad guy and then he just vanishes from the story, he doesn't offer to help or contribute in any way. It's pointless fluff that tries to give him screen time but it only highlights how useless in the grand scheme he is.

Piccolo merging twice is a good explanation.

Piccolo being able to merge with Kami to become more powerful is fine but all Namekian's being able to combine their power just feels like an ass pull. As is Piccolo powering up massively in the span of 5 days on King Kai's to the point where Nail thinks he'd be able to curb stomp Freeza if Kami was combined with him.

[ABED]

I think many want the show to be an ensemble show where they all carry the show together as a team, but DB was never like that. Goku was the main character from the beginning. It's a story about his journey. It does "grind my gears" that some don't understand that or at least seem to not.

I think people would drop the ensemble idea a lot easier if new material didn't bring people up only to spotlight how useless they are. Gohan is a really good example where the stories constantly try to have him appear but he doesn't actually help with anything so he looks like a pointless waste of space. There's a moment with him getting angry about nobody talking him about this weeks bad guy and then he just vanishes from the story, he doesn't offer to help or contribute in any way. It's pointless fluff that tries to give him screen time but it only highlights how useless in the grand scheme he is.

Piccolo merging twice is a good explanation.

Piccolo being able to merge with Kami to become more powerful is fine but all Namekian's being able to combine their power just feels like an ass pull. As is Piccolo powering up massively in the span of 5 days on King Kai's to the point where Nail thinks he'd be able to curb stomp Freeza if Kami was combined with him.

It is in a sense, a deus ex machina, but I let it slide because it doesn't defeat Freeza. I think it could've been set up earlier, but I like the idea of Namekians being able to merge.

No offense, but "ass pull" grinds my gears. Dunno why. It feels unnecessarily course when there are a few other terms that are available to use that apply to this issue.

Everyone loves pointing out how useful Kuririn and Gohan were in the Freeza arc, and it's true, but it was because they were helpful in ways that didn't have to primarily do with their strength. The search for the DB's allows for them to help out, regardless of how powerful they are because you need all 7 to get a wish.

[ekrolo2]

Everyone loves pointing out how useful Kuririn and Gohan were in the Freeza arc, and it's true, but it was because they were helpful in ways that didn't have to primarily do with their strength. The search for the DB's allows for them to help out, regardless of how powerful they are because you need all 7 to get a wish.

It would be one thing if the series did this sort of thing again but it usually isn't, characters who are totally irrelevant appear for extra screen time sake but could be cut out entirely and it would change nothing. My Gohan example is once again apt, he shows up, grinds his teeth about people not trusting him about Trunks' problems and then vanishes entirely afterward when logically you'd expect him to, y'know, help Trunks in some capacity.

[Dbzfan94]

Cant remember off the top of my head for DB-Z exactly, but in GT I recall the stuff when Baby attacks Goten/Gohan/Vegeta on Earth having a whole 2 episodes related to it and never showing Goku/Trunks/Pan in space in that period of time.

But that is the classic, "Goku's away and thing get worse". I thought you meant the character solving an issue like the Garlic Jr Saga.

Shit I forgot Garlic Jr completely. lol

[Kanassa]

The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.

Can I sig this?

[HeroR]

The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.

Can I sig this?

Sure thing.