Non-thread-worthy discussions

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Krillin1994
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Krillin1994 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:22 am

ABED wrote:It's not that simple. Goku knows what Gohan needs - anger. The issue is getting him that angry and Goku can't do that on command. This whole idea that he needed someone else to tell him something he already knew, that of all things it's something as self evident and trite as it's okay to fight to defend your values, is ridiculous. It's not a revelation.
It works fine in accordance with what Toriyama was going for at that point.
No it doesn't. If what he was going for was organic drama, then he failed. I still love him turning SS2 in the anime, but that's likely due to the music and Nozawa's performance, rather than the writing.

This might be able to fill its own thread.
Maybe as you said the execution of this could have been better if Gohan had some prior interaction with 16. like if maybe he was present when android 17 & 18 got unleashed or if 16 did more to save Piccolo from cell before Goku took him and Tien away (i.e piccolo talking to Gohan about him due to it).

But the whole point is Gohan simply couldn't get angry enough seeing his friends and dad getting tortured by the cell juniors.

I know he was a robot but he looked realistic and had free thought of his own. He literally had his head stomped into pieces right before Gohan's eyes. The other guys were close by, but maybe it took Cell's sadistic behaviour right up close to help him go over the edge.

Android 16 had tried saving Gohan just prior with his attempted self destruct, nobody else tried helping him just then.

I've never really given the scene too much thought before. I need to think about it more before I can try and make any serious point on it. I think you're right in that this could be thread worthy.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:58 pm

I don't know if I agree that #16 was a weak trigger for Gohan to release his hidden powers, I mean I'm on the team that thinks he was OOC on the Cell Games, so #16 was basically telling him things that I suppose he already know, but the scene is so damn emotional: he is fighting against himself there, seeing his friends suffer and not knowing what do to help them, shows that he doesn't have any control about the said hidden powers, #16 words and his merciless death by Cell was needed it for it. I don't know, I think I'll sit on the fence on this one.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:03 pm

What does "ToP" stand for ? I've it in a couple posts, and don't get it.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Boo Machine » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:05 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote:What does "ToP" stand for ? I've it in a couple posts, and don't get it.
Assuming they're talking about what I think they are, then it stand for "Tournament of Power". The Tournament going on in Dragonball Super.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:12 pm

Boo Machine wrote:
Soppa Saia People wrote:What does "ToP" stand for ? I've it in a couple posts, and don't get it.
Assuming they're talking about what I think they are, then it stand for "Tournament of Power". The Tournament going on in Dragonball Super.
Yeah, that's what I was talking about, but, jeez, what a generic name.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:08 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:
Soppa Saia People wrote:What does "ToP" stand for ? I've it in a couple posts, and don't get it.
Assuming they're talking about what I think they are, then it stand for "Tournament of Power". The Tournament going on in Dragonball Super.
Yeah, that's what I was talking about, but, jeez, what a generic name.
It's also a pun, since the fighting stage is shaped like a top. Using it makes me chuckle more than it should.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Boo Machine » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:39 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: It's also a pun, since the fighting stage is shaped like a top. Using it makes me chuckle more than it should.
Oh my god, you're right. I never put the two together. That's pretty cute, I like it.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:30 pm

Noah wrote:I don't know if I agree that #16 was a weak trigger for Gohan to release his hidden powers, I mean I'm on the team that thinks he was OOC on the Cell Games, so #16 was basically telling him things that I suppose he already know, but the scene is so damn emotional: he is fighting against himself there, seeing his friends suffer and not knowing what do to help them, shows that he doesn't have any control about the said hidden powers, #16 words and his merciless death by Cell was needed it for it. I don't know, I think I'll sit on the fence on this one.
This is along my lines of thought about this scene. Well, everything but Gohan being out-of-character during the Cell games anyway.

With #16's words and end, Gohan may have experienced a degree of emotional whiplash. Final words of reassurance about protecting the world, followed immediately by "death" up close -- it woke him up that everyone else could meet that fate as well. Gohan had already been swelling watching everyone being beat, #16's head was the last straw. Gohan had no direct connection to Cell, and he had also not been impressed by Cell's fighting ability (in comparison to his own). Gohan couldn't just simply manufacture an emotion when the feeling to free his fighting spirit completely wasn't there entirely, or what that even meant to him. Keep in mind, that Gohan may have been under the impression that he would be mostly a spectator at this event, as I'm sure that Goku never ran it by him that he would be relying primarily on his power (Wait, what?... I'm fighting Cell?).

It really was Gohan battling himself, and it played out so well because of all of the time that we got to see Gohan as he was growing up. While the events of this scene played out in a satisfying way to me, I can understand why it may fall under someone's own interpretation. And that's what makes it one of the highest points of the entire DB story. For it to make sense, we have to take into consideration all of Gohan's story all the way through to this moment. It's writing that goes a little more beneath the surface in comparison to the DB norm (although I couldn't say if that was the intention of Toriyama). There is no hand-holding, as some may have preferred being given every answer to anything that happens in this story. #16 not being in Gohan's usual circle gives this scene more weight than if Gohan had just snapped at the sight of what was going on with the others, imo. A different perspective and a way of communicating that was provided.

About Gohan being OoC, he had been training with his dad in isolation for a year. We can deduce that during that time, that Gohan had grown up in more ways than one. The desperate impulse into reacting on the front lines wasn't there this time around (as it was on Namek when he was 5 or 6). Many others, including his dad, were around and the odds were in their favor. Plus, Gohan felt that Cell's power was not so impressive that it would be impossible to beat him. I don't know about the manga, but I feel that the anime did a great job with Gohan building up to the Cell Games. I like that the answers to some things are not clear-cut as in most other parts of the story. We have to see from Gohan's POV.

Also, I don't know if some impressions about this scene -- or this arc -- are coming from the dub's take. The original presentation nailed it so well, imo.

This discussion about Gohan and #16's role could've been its own thread, but I wouldn't have much more to say than what I already have here. With Goku and Freeza, we can all come to the same conclusion with what the narrative was going for. With Gohan and Cell, it gets a bit more complicated.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:35 pm

Depending on how they pronounce his name in their dub, Janemba can sound like "Je n'aime pas", which is French for "I don't like/love."

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Bruma rabu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:35 pm

You guys think dragon ball kai should of started of with dragon ball and gone all the way to buu?
I think it would been awesome is they started kai right in the beginning of the series and would make it feel more complete.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:56 pm

Bruma rabu wrote:You guys think Dragon Ball Kai should of started off with Dragon Ball and gone all the way to Buu?
I think it would been awesome is they started kai right in the beginning of the series and would make it feel more complete.
FMAB proved to me that manga-focused anime remakes aren't necessarily able to capture the same lightning that the manga nor the preceding anime did. I don't think Kai should have happened in any official capacity, but if a remake had to happen anyway, I wouldn't want it to happen before the Piccolo arc.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Bruma rabu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:03 pm

Hmm, I disagree. While FMA and DB are in comparable situations, they have two distinct problems. The dragon ball seriers needed an update while FMA was made before the manga ended. I think kai was a good idea but executed horribly. A proper restoration and unifying both DB and DBZ would have amazing and could of introduce people to DB.
Why wouldn't you want anything before the piccolo arc seems like a strange place to start.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:18 pm

Bruma rabu wrote:Why wouldn't you want anything before the piccolo arc seems like a strange place to start.
The comedy for the first arc would have to be watered down to a significant degree, the 21st Budokai had little filler to begin with, and what little it did have was pretty good. Red Ribbon... well, I actually wouldn't mind that being cut down, but I don't trust that they could capture the visual magic. Baba's Tournament is in the same boat as the 21st Budokai, and the 22nd Budokai was made far better in the anime. Also, the Piccolo Arc is when Dragon Ball first introduced the visual and storytelling formulas it's known for.

For these reasons, I think Piccolo would be the perfect place to begin if a remake were to be made, with allusions to the original series, of course. Though like I said, I'm generally against remakes anyway, since it's so easy to lose the soul of a story by simply photocopying something old.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Bruma rabu » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:36 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:The comedy for the first arc would have to be watered down to a significant degree, the 21st Budokai had little filler to begin with, and what little it did have was pretty good. Red Ribbon... well, I actually wouldn't mind that being cut down, but I don't trust that they could capture the visual magic. Baba's Tournament is in the same boat as the 21st Budokai, and the 22nd Budokai was made far better in the anime. Also, the Piccolo Arc is when Dragon Ball first introduced the visual and storytelling formulas it's known for.

For these reasons, I think Piccolo would be the perfect place to begin if a remake were to be made, with allusions to the original series, of course. Though like I said, I'm generally against remakes anyway, since it's so easy to lose the soul of a story by simply photocopying something old.
Well if it's following the manga these parts wouldn't need to be cut out. Also I'm not suggesting for a complete remake but essentially what we got but well made with the inclusion of dragon ball. I like the idea of kai but I feel it was completely mishandled.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:22 pm

Bruma rabu wrote:You guys think dragon ball kai should of started of with dragon ball and gone all the way to buu?
I think it would been awesome is they started kai right in the beginning of the series and would make it feel more complete.
Yes! I would love it! I mean Dragon Ball Kai purpose was to be a series close to the original manga in terms of pacing, right? That's okay, but Dragon Ball didn't started on Vol. 17. So instead of a brief summary of the first series, I would prefer they to start from the real beginning. DB has way less filler than Z, they could make it in 70 episodes, maybe.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Bruma rabu » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Noah wrote:Yes! I would love it! I mean Dragon Ball Kai purpose was to be a series close to the original manga in terms of pacing, right? That's okay, but Dragon Ball didn't started on Vol. 17. So instead of a brief summary of the first series, I would prefer they to start from the real beginning. DB has way less filler than Z, they could make it in 70 episodes, maybe.
Right! It would of also been a great way to introduce a new generation to the original dragon ball anime. Many like to skip it and go into z but this could of changed that.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:16 am

The ass kicking Vegeta took in the Saiyan arc showed his toughness more than Freeza or Cell tanking an attack. I'm more impressed by someone getting the hell kicked out of them but they keep going than not even flinching. The latter makes the attacker seem weak instead of making the attack-ee look strong.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:41 pm

Noah wrote:
Bruma rabu wrote:You guys think dragon ball kai should of started of with dragon ball and gone all the way to buu?
I think it would been awesome is they started kai right in the beginning of the series and would make it feel more complete.
Yes! I would love it! I mean Dragon Ball Kai purpose was to be a series close to the original manga in terms of pacing, right? That's okay, but Dragon Ball didn't started on Vol. 17. So instead of a brief summary of the first series, I would prefer they to start from the real beginning. DB has way less filler than Z, they could make it in 70 episodes, maybe.
I mean, I'd like to see Dragon Ball retouched as well, but what's going to make it any more successful than Kai which was already a financial flop? I would also wager early Dragon Ball is even more faded and would be more expensive to fix up than Saiyan saga onward.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Bruma rabu » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:24 pm

LuckyCat wrote:I mean, I'd like to see Dragon Ball retouched as well, but what's going to make it any more successful than Kai which was already a financial flop? I would also wager early Dragon Ball is even more faded and would be more expensive to fix up than Saiyan saga onward.
I constantly hear different things one time somebody will say kai was a flop and and others would say it was successful but their merch was bad so they canceled it. What I'm pretty sure of though is how badly kai was executed and if Toei did things differently, kai could of been amazing.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:33 am

Bruma rabu wrote:I constantly hear different things one time somebody will say kai was a flop and and others would say it was successful but their merch was bad so they canceled it. What I'm pretty sure of though is how badly kai was executed and if Toei did things differently, kai could of been amazing.
The fact of the matter is that Kai did just fine on TV, and that's empirically provable, meaning that merchandise sales essentially had to be the reason for the initial cancellation.
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