GT or Super? Which one is the best?

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by jeffbr92 » Mon May 08, 2017 10:04 pm

jaiOtaku wrote:Definitely Super,
I really didn't like GT, especially the beginning of the series.
GT just didn't feel like DBZ.
Super is not the best but in my opinion a step up from GT
I prefer Super too, but the series feels more like attempt of being DBZ than it's own thing
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon May 08, 2017 10:11 pm

The Zamasu arc was the only real high-point of Super for me, but beyond that one arc everything else around it has been mediocre at best, and even by just comparing it to GT, Super is an utter mess with some of the worst character utilization I've ever seen. GT at the least had a sense of connectivity with its direction and its arcs, even if they were lackluster in presentation. Super on the other hand seems to just portray itself as if everything just happens at random, and the characters are too dumb to connect things together. Either they have no interest in anything presented to them, or they're all just too peaceful or in Beerus' case too lazy to do anything worthwhile. Its where Super doesn't feel like it has any sense of direction let alone plot progression. Super's arcs just seem to exist for the sake of the show's theme, rather than advancing the show's setting.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue May 09, 2017 10:11 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:GTs the Man of Steel of the DB franchise, lots of good ideas conceptually bubling under the surface of okay execution that somewhat fluctuates up and down.

Super is the Iron Man 2, lots of flash and surface level enjoyment to be had but beneath is a mess of shit that's good, bad, mediocre and anything inbetween. And yes, Goku Black IS the Sam mother fucking Rockwell of Super ;)
You could honestly say that about a lot of Marvel products since the cinematic universe kicked off. :P
IM2 is probably one of the few movies where it's such a good time on the surface that I tend to ignore it's faults entirely even if I'm aware of them. Super needs to go full-retard to do that for me now, like maybe bring in God Broly from the new 4-D attraction thing ;)
Welp, you just had to say it...

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by precita » Tue May 09, 2017 1:43 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:The Zamasu arc was the only real high-point of Super for me, but beyond that one arc everything else around it has been mediocre at best, and even by just comparing it to GT, Super is an utter mess with some of the worst character utilization I've ever seen. GT at the least had a sense of connectivity with its direction and its arcs, even if they were lackluster in presentation. Super on the other hand seems to just portray itself as if everything just happens at random, and the characters are too dumb to connect things together. Either they have no interest in anything presented to them, or they're all just too peaceful or in Beerus' case too lazy to do anything worthwhile. Its where Super doesn't feel like it has any sense of direction let alone plot progression. Super's arcs just seem to exist for the sake of the show's theme, rather than advancing the show's setting.
I wouldn't say that really. Everything from Super has spawned from the introduction of Beerus and everything relates to Gods or Kai's or the other universes. There is a central theme Super is going for, and after all this time it does feel like everything is connected in the long run. Even the Champa tournament which felt like a minor low-key tournament basically paved the way for the Universe Survival tournament, and let us see an alternate universe for the first time.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Forte224 » Tue May 09, 2017 6:11 pm

Super. It has more fan service than GT, but...I'm a fan and I like being served. Anyway, the Future Trunks arc had me hooked right up until the last 3 episodes or so. It was just kinda...weird from that point forward. This new arc has me hooked as well. Only episode I'm not too fond of is the most recent one, but I'm still looking forward to every week. GT was just...boring and even more inconsistent than Super, imo. Also I'm not a huge SS4 fan, SSB is way more my style

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Vorige Waffe » Tue May 09, 2017 8:37 pm

Super, by far. First 30 episodes notwithstanding it's more entertaining in that it captures the adventurous and uplifting spirit of Dragonball more so than GT did (and even when it tried to, it was unbelievably boring). Even the fights are more entertaining in that the characters aren't stupidly handicapping themselves (depending on the enemy, that is) like they did in GT (like, how nearly every fight Goku seemed to take forever to turn Super Saiyan). Even the art and animation are better I think. Yes, I said it. Yes, everyone and their grandmother has seen the original cut of episode 5 from two years ago. But if you think Super's animation is bad, then good job on using selective memory on the flat, recycled animated masterpieces from GT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZIvtkVkzKg

And let's not even start on the bad animation you could get with DBZ (i.e. episode 161, 194, movie 6, etc). I mean, Super isn't exactly Ghibli quality animation, but for a low budget animated show produced on a weekly basis, it's serviceable. If you're still pissing and moaning about Super's animation with that one episode 5 still being used as a reference point, you need to watch the show more. And if you're still complaining after that, then you don't know how weekly televised anime is produced: on the cheap by a typically overworked and underpaid staff. There's places everywhere online that explain this process, of which Super is one out of hundreds of anime made this way.
AnimeMaakuo wrote: In regards to DBGT, Toei would often send their stories to Akira Toriyama, and he would give his advice on how he felt. Toei took risks with DBGT, and I absolutely enjoyed it (especially with the musical score). I know I'll get some hate for saying this, but that's how I feel.
Gonna need a source on that bud. Most places say all Toriyama had to with GT is draw up some original character designs (i.e Giru, Pan, etc) and scenery. Otherwise, I'm calling BS.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Wed May 10, 2017 5:15 pm

precita wrote:I wouldn't say that really. Everything from Super has spawned from the introduction of Beerus and everything relates to Gods or Kai's or the other universes. There is a central theme Super is going for, and after all this time it does feel like everything is connected in the long run. Even the Champa tournament which felt like a minor low-key tournament basically paved the way for the Universe Survival tournament, and let us see an alternate universe for the first time.
I'll give Super that credit, where it does foreshadow its arcs a lot better than DB & Z did, and somewhat more clearer than GT did (though GT did have its independent continuity timeline as well which was better than Z. Though I the problem with Super is more of its themes and plot being solid, but its representation of the Z fighters being treated as irrelevant or just inserted in there by Goku is what overlaps that with the prominent issue. There isn't really anything that connects the Z cast to the story at all beyond them being forced into it.In GT, the beefs from the villains was always based on something the Z cast did themselves or their origins which is how it felt they had a relevant opposition to it. You could pretty much use the same plot with any other group of characters in Super and it would feel exactly the same. Nothing about Super really connects to the Z characters enough on a symbolic or personalized level which is why the plots feel so disjointed.
Vorige Waffe wrote:Super, by far. First 30 episodes notwithstanding it's more entertaining in that it captures the adventurous and uplifting spirit of Dragonball more so than GT did (and even when it tried to, it was unbelievably boring).
Thats subjective. GT's problem was that it was not original in its attempts to replicate that. But Super never had a sense of adventure to it, it just had a lot of goofy slice of life comedy with a very overdone gag regarding food-porn. They were better jokes is all. Not better writing. GT only tried to recycle things that already happened in DB, and its tone shifts were inconsistent which is why it was boring. It was no better or worse than filler junk like Goku vs. Slime Vegeta or Gohan vs. That Watagashi. Where as Super either uses the same joke over and over again, or creates meaningless scenarios just for the sake of filler. Your enjoyment of them is subjective. A lot of people like the slice of life stuff. I find them boring because they never advanced anything. Z's filler on the or hand in the Cell and Buu arcs, were seamless for me because most of its filler was still relevant to the tone of the plot. Not a recycled gag or them just doing something else.
Vorige Waffe wrote:Even the fights are more entertaining in that the characters aren't stupidly handicapping themselves (depending on the enemy, that is) like they did in GT (like, how nearly every fight Goku seemed to take forever to turn Super Saiyan).
You can argue that with the same logic with Super where Goku always uses SS as opposed to SSB needlessly or the rationale that Goku chooses to hold back to test himself or his opponent. In the series arcs Goku usually went SS3 or SS straight away though.
Vorige Waffe wrote:Even the art and animation are better I think. Yes, I said it. Yes, everyone and their grandmother has seen the original cut of episode 5 from two years ago. But if you think Super's animation is bad, then good job on using selective memory on the flat, recycled animated masterpieces from GT
Again, thats fallacious. Episode 5 is one extreme example of bad animation, but Super has overall pre-Zamasu arc has been ugly with off model characters in general. There has never been a Super episode that looked exceptionally well. Its best episodes were just at the expected standard. Not amazing anime quality like say One Punch Man. GT on the other hand, had most of the characters stay on models outside the few episodes here and there were they looked sloppier but those were few in between.
Vorige Waffe wrote:And let's not even start on the bad animation you could get with DBZ (i.e. episode 161, 194, movie 6, etc). I mean, Super isn't exactly Ghibli quality animation, but for a low budget animated show produced on a weekly basis, it's serviceable. If you're still pissing and moaning about Super's animation with that one episode 5 still being used as a reference point, you need to watch the show more. And if you're still complaining after that, then you don't know how weekly televised anime is produced: on the cheap by a typically overworked and underpaid staff. There's places everywhere online that explain this process, of which Super is one out of hundreds of anime made this way.
Using Ghibli as the bar for anime is clearly dishonest to the overall common quality of modern anime. You don't have to either be mediocre or traditional movie quality between the extremes to judge animation quality, but as a standard average TV anime, Super on that lower bar still looked terrible pre-Zamasu arc. The standards by the fandom is just extremely low for the animation quality just for the sake of defending a new series. However, nobody is using Episode 5 today to set their standard of Super's overall quality, so pulling old news like episode 5 up as a claim that people are using to generalize criticism is a strawman. The reality is that all animation studios in Japan are poorly managed and laboring because of it, not because its cheap. If that were the case, then the entire series would look just as bad, but it doesn't. Z at its best was still under the same platform and held to the same conditions, it just differed between directors and the model artists. When Z was good it was really good, and when it was bad it was awful. Super has just been decent to ugly in its own standard and its always been because of either low frame animation or just the constantly off model art. Also explaining the processes does not justify the product. It just highlights the problem.
Last edited by SingleFringe&Sparks on Wed May 10, 2017 5:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by ABED » Wed May 10, 2017 5:24 pm

where it does foreshadow its arcs a lot better than DB & Z did
For instance?
Forte224 wrote:Super. It has more fan service than GT, but...I'm a fan and I like being served.
Problem with fanservice is when it plays purely on nostalgia instead of pushing the story forward. Instead of creating new great moments, they often just serve to remind me of something I liked in the past.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Forte224 » Wed May 10, 2017 5:39 pm

ABED wrote:
where it does foreshadow its arcs a lot better than DB & Z did
For instance?
Forte224 wrote:Super. It has more fan service than GT, but...I'm a fan and I like being served.
Problem with fanservice is when it plays purely on nostalgia instead of pushing the story forward. Instead of creating new great moments, they often just serve to remind me of something I liked in the past.
Yeah I agree there. I guess my point was that I have more fun with Super than I do with GT. It's given some of my favorite characters moments I've always wanted them to have (mainly Vegeta beating the tar out of Black), and it's given me enough new content that I enjoy that it overshadows GT for me

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by killafoe69 » Sun May 14, 2017 11:42 pm

First of all, let me say. I think neither of them is particularly good. But GT, for me, is much better than Super.

If you want more details into my opinions on GT. I wrote an entire review on another thread. I'll give you a brief summary of my thoughts below though.viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27833&start=80

First Positives of GT

The soundtrack is so freaking good. Tokunaga made a beautiful soundtrack with inspiration coming from all over the place. The many renditions of Dan Dan are just so great. Speaking of the opening song Dan Dan, and ending songs are all great and so much fun to listen to with the weakest being Hitori Jenai to me and greatest being Sabisuita Machine Gun. It might pale in comparison to Yamamato's it is definitely on par with Kikuchi's work in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

The animation here is just top notch. The series has a better track record than all of the rest when it comes to animation quality in my opinion.

Now on to the Negatives.
The Black Star Dragon Ball Arc is pretty bad in my opinion but for one big reason. It's boring. It is so so so so so boring at times. Those episodes were not properly paced. Like at all. Some of the episodes were good though, unlike other people I won't bash it completely. The cross-dressing Trunks stuff was great. Episode 1 and 2 were fun and really entertaining. And the episode that Goku pulled out that giants teeth (which was based on a picture Toriyama drew for the people at Toei) is so fun to watch.

The Super 17 arc is merely serviceable for me. It provides the setup the following arc builds off of, which Dragon Ball Super doesn't do. The last episode with 18 trying to avenge her brother and Goku telling her that the real 17 was helping them defeat him (something NO other villain has done in Dragon Ball). It was also fun seeing the Characters mop the floor with all of its old villains who used to be a struggle for them but besides that, there is nothing that makes this arc really that memorable and that's partly because it's so short.

Finally, the Funimation dub of GT is just bad, with that terrible Mark Menza score. The very unfaithful scripts that added plothole after plothole that wasn't in the original Japanese presentation of the show. This is a dub I actively try to avoid.

Things I am neutral about:

I didn't really care about Goku being a kid again because he really wasn't. Goku has always been a kid inside and now that he is in a kids body again he can have fun in it, but when its time to get serious he does, like when he faces off against Baby Goten and Baby Gohan. Goku isn't a kid again. He is an adult stuck in a kids body and it shows, and honestly, I like GT Goku much more than Super Goku.


Super I will admit is definitely much more entertaining and has much less boring moments, but it has terrible writing. I'll talk about its positives first though.

The Universe 6 arc has a decent first half but pretty great second half. It always kept me on my toes and I was genuinely entertained. Pretty bad use of characters though. As only Vegeta and Goku really did anything.

The filler tends to be really freaking great with the exception of the Potaufeu arc.

The Funimation dub is so much better and more fateful than the dub of GT. Hands down. It keeps the original music and everything (even though I don't really like Sumitomo). My one complaint being that in the earlier episodes it sounded like the Voice Actors had been recording their voices in the 90's still.

Now on to the negatives.

The soundtrack is nowhere near Kikuchi's work or Tokunaga's. It is very hit or miss but has recently gotten better.

Now the thing everyone hates to talk about but you can't ignore it. The animation, for the most part, is just bad in Super until midway through the Universe 6 arc where it slipped into being mostly decent. I will say though that the Shida cut in episode 57 is the best animated scene in the entire franchise, but that's all it is. A scene. Right after the animation dips into being just pretty decent.

The Battle of Gods and Ressurection of F arc are just so bad. They did not need to exist but they do for some reason. Nothing here is worth watching as we have already seen it here. And before anyone states it. Do not try to replace the Anime arcs with the movies when talking about Super. You must include them when discussing it. You replacing BoG and RoF with their movie counterparts is like me replacing the Black Star Dragon Ball arc with that one episode recap Funimation made. Does it make the series better? Yes, but they do the represent an accurate depiction of what the series is like? NO.

This next one will be controversial but I stand by it.

I hate the Future Trunks arc for one main reason. It is terrible rushed in the second half. Things that took Dragon Ball Z 2-3 episodes to cover they did it in one which hampered the experience. The Goku Black reveal does not make sense as there is no way Goku could have fought Zamasu in his timeline because the events would play out the exact same way. If they had just removed that scene and made it a time-loop it would have been much better. The Vegito retcon was stupid as they literally wrote a way to unfuse with the Dragon Balls and lastly the ending was just bad. Yes the first half is great and the suspense was great but it all fell apart in the end. To me I don't care how an arc starts, I care how an arc ends. Which is why I like the Shadow Dragons arc even though the first half (everything before Nuova) with one or two exceptions is just really bad, but everything after that I consider great episodes (with the one exception to me being that one episode where Nuova Shenron sacrificed himself).

And lastly, nothing that happens in Super matters. At all, because we know the characters are still headed into the end of Z.

GT to me is just a better-told story and one that I love to go back to every now and then.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Kokonoe » Tue May 16, 2017 8:45 am

Both are incredibly flawed, but GT's premise is far weaker and the plots a bit too edgy for my tastes. The artwork and animation is vastly superior in GT, but the colors being dull hurt the experience. There just wasn't anything real spectacular to say about it.

Super's powerscaling is abysmal, the characterization is really off (more so in the first half of it), and they do get generic at times with certain things, but despite that, it does a better job at telling an entertaining story and one that resembles the previous series more closely by comparison to GT.

Super takes it for me due to having a far more interesting premise.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Bullza » Tue May 16, 2017 11:28 am

Just the last episode of Super was better than anything that came out of GT.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Noah » Tue May 16, 2017 6:23 pm

Bullza wrote:Just the last episode of Super was better than anything that came out of GT.
I wouldn't say that, but valid point since GT had little to nothing father-son interactions between Goku and Gohan
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Codarik » Tue May 16, 2017 9:18 pm

Super made me appreciate GT even more.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue May 16, 2017 10:14 pm

If we had Goten, Trunks, Uub and Gohan have a more of a vital role in the shadow dragon arc, then I would be more mixed. However at this point, I'd say Super because of the slice of life episodes and it's not afraid to focus on other characters outside of Goku and Vegeta.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by cheddarsword » Tue May 16, 2017 10:53 pm

The only good thing about GT is the Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Other than that, the entire series full of bad ideas and provides the worst possible ending you could imagine without even giving any reasoning for it.

Super is everything that GT isn't. Thankfully.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by ABED » Wed May 17, 2017 4:24 am

cheddarsword wrote:The only good thing about GT is the Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Other than that, the entire series full of bad ideas and provides the worst possible ending you could imagine without even giving any reasoning for it.

Super is everything that GT isn't. Thankfully.
How is it the worst possible ending?
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by cheddarsword » Wed May 17, 2017 9:50 am

ABED wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:The only good thing about GT is the Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Other than that, the entire series full of bad ideas and provides the worst possible ending you could imagine without even giving any reasoning for it.

Super is everything that GT isn't. Thankfully.
How is it the worst possible ending?
The fact that you would ask is a sign that you just can't see it.

The hero, the guy that everyone has fallen in love with, is told that his time on earth is now over for transgressions against an unknown law, and is spirited away by shenron.

Sad only barely touches that one. It's like the writer wanted to end ALL OF DRAGON BALL by waving a gigantic F*** YOU to all of it's fans.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by ABED » Wed May 17, 2017 10:21 am

cheddarsword wrote:
ABED wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:The only good thing about GT is the Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Other than that, the entire series full of bad ideas and provides the worst possible ending you could imagine without even giving any reasoning for it.

Super is everything that GT isn't. Thankfully.
How is it the worst possible ending?
The fact that you would ask is a sign that you just can't see it.

The hero, the guy that everyone has fallen in love with, is told that his time on earth is now over for transgressions against an unknown law, and is spirited away by shenron.

Sad only barely touches that one. It's like the writer wanted to end ALL OF DRAGON BALL by waving a gigantic F*** YOU to all of it's fans.
Yeah, that's not the worst possible ending. I don't find it sad that Goku leaves and it makes sense that using the DB's would have consequences. That's not an F You to fans, that's a good story. Granted, I wish Toriyama had set that up sooner than the end of the last arc of DBZ, but still, it's better than taking away whatever limitations the DB's had. Despite Goku's death, it ends on an upbeat note. The world is okay and so is Goku where ever he happens to be.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Wed May 17, 2017 10:35 am

cheddarsword wrote:
ABED wrote:
cheddarsword wrote:The only good thing about GT is the Super Saiyan 4 transformation. Other than that, the entire series full of bad ideas and provides the worst possible ending you could imagine without even giving any reasoning for it.

Super is everything that GT isn't. Thankfully.
How is it the worst possible ending?
The fact that you would ask is a sign that you just can't see it.

The hero, the guy that everyone has fallen in love with, is told that his time on earth is now over for transgressions against an unknown law, and is spirited away by shenron.

Sad only barely touches that one. It's like the writer wanted to end ALL OF DRAGON BALL by waving a gigantic F*** YOU to all of it's fans.
It was rather touching actually, it was implied that he died and since he is a reason so many threats keep attacking earth, it's best that he leaves. It's a bit like when he died during the cell arc. I know everything is different to other people, but it seems like the general consensus is that while GT isn't held in high regard, the ending is.
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