GT or Super? Which one is the best?

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Bansho64
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Bansho64 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:44 am

Since some are mentioning Shida, I'm gonna go ahead and throw something out there too. Don't get me wrong, I do think his cuts are some of the best we've gotten out of the franchise.

BUT! While his animation scenes in Super are fluid and the choreography is great, I still think I prefer numerous other cuts in previous DB material over it. Especially if we're factoring in scenes from groups like Seigasha or Studio Junio. Aesthetically, there's just so much I prefer in some of those older gritty scenes.
And this may or may not factor into my reasoning for thinking GT as a whole looks better than Super by a mile. Bite me :wink:

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by ABED » Wed May 24, 2017 5:38 am

I wouldn't consider Goku stating that he didn't like how he got the SSG power up to be development. It's not a change as much as Goku being explicit.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 7:07 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:The only real problem I have for BOG retelling (besides the fight needed to end an episode sooner), is the development Goku got in the movie just disappeared. I like the movie that he didn't like that he got the powers because he didn't earn them He didn't train or attain it on his own and he was frustrated because of that. In the show and manga, he seems to accept it and doesn't have a problem with it.
Eh, I didn't think there was real, substantial development there anyway. It was cool to have, but nothing game-changing. While there are many other things about the arc that are a downgrade as well (No Shida, underwhelming pregnancy reveal, no Mai-Trunks gags, etc.), I've found that during my rewatches of either movie/retellings, I'm consistently unimpressed by the movies in comparison everything other than visual consistency and a few good cuts of animation. On the whole, I enjoy the settings, backgrounds, storyboards, scripts, etc. of the anime far more impressive despite their other failings. In fact, the only place I can think of off the top of my head where I preferred a movie storyboard was Beerus vs. SS3 Goku (Though realistically, the episode 5 we got probably isn't what was on the actual storyboards, assuming those were even done thoroughly enough to tell). As if I needed another reason, the beautiful episode 4 is icing on the cake for the series.

Alright, I've said my goodbyes. Everyone take turns crucifying me now.
Character development is not just going to bad to evil, but also having good conflicts.

Wow...I can't think one single episode that the technical part was better than the movie.
I mean...To me everything is better in the movie, the animation, pacing, Goku conflict (and his personality because his flanderization already started in Beerus arc), the gag scenes (Seriously...They've withdrawn the clever gag scene of Pilaf confusing Goten with Goku, and added Krillin's getting his mouth burned by pepper...That was so cringe)...
Sorry for the bad English, it's not my native language ^^'

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Jinzoningen MULE
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed May 24, 2017 7:10 pm

hectorgf wrote:To me everything is better in the movie, the animation, pacing, Goku conflict (and his personality because his flanderization already started in Beerus arc), the gag scenes (Seriously...They've withdrawn the clever gag scene of Pilaf confusing Goten with Goku, and added Krillin's getting his mouth burned by pepper...That was so cringe)...
I agree that those things are better in the movie, but the arc does other things that I enjoy.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 7:28 pm

Bansho64 wrote:Since some are mentioning Shida, I'm gonna go ahead and throw something out there too. Don't get me wrong, I do think his cuts are some of the best we've gotten out of the franchise.

BUT! While his animation scenes in Super are fluid and the choreography is great, I still think I prefer numerous other cuts in previous DB material over it. Especially if we're factoring in scenes from groups like Seigasha or Studio Junio. Aesthetically, there's just so much I prefer in some of those older gritty scenes.
And this may or may not factor into my reasoning for thinking GT as a whole looks better than Super by a mile. Bite me :wink:

Bansho, I think I agree with you. I mean, the animation of Shida is AWESOME, his cut in BoG was probably the best animated sequence in the whole franchise, but...I think it's not too ''adequate'' for Dragon Ball. I mean, it's really well produced, but Shimanuki and Hisada's scenes on the original had SO much impact than these cuts. The punches were violent, the action lines make the scene really faster and intense, the use of the shaking cam was really impressive, the details of the scenario "breaking"...It's so much more ''Dragon Ball'', you know? The action scenes in DB were more "closed", focusing more on the techniques, fists and kicks...and not that craziness from Shida's work (that I do like, I just don't think it matches so well with DB as these scenes I told).

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Sorry for the bad English, it's not my native language ^^'

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed May 24, 2017 8:07 pm

hectorgf wrote:
Bansho64 wrote:Since some are mentioning Shida, I'm gonna go ahead and throw something out there too. Don't get me wrong, I do think his cuts are some of the best we've gotten out of the franchise.

BUT! While his animation scenes in Super are fluid and the choreography is great, I still think I prefer numerous other cuts in previous DB material over it. Especially if we're factoring in scenes from groups like Seigasha or Studio Junio. Aesthetically, there's just so much I prefer in some of those older gritty scenes.
And this may or may not factor into my reasoning for thinking GT as a whole looks better than Super by a mile. Bite me :wink:

Bansho, I think I agree with you. I mean, the animation of Shida is AWESOME, his cut in BoG was probably the best animated sequence in the whole franchise, but...I think it's not too ''adequate'' for Dragon Ball. I mean, it's really well produced, but Shimanuki and Hisada's scenes on the original had SO much impact than these cuts. The punches were violent, the action lines make the scene really faster and intense, the use of the shaking cam was really impressive, the details of the scenario "breaking"...It's so much more ''Dragon Ball'', you know? The action scenes in DB were more "closed", focusing more on the techniques, fists and kicks...and not that craziness from Shida's work (that I do like, I just don't think it matches so well with DB as these scenes I told).

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Though modern Shida is a sight to behold, you have to keep in mind that he's every bit as crippled by the same pitfalls of modern Dragon Ball that everyone else is, which can quite frankly be summed up in one word: boring. Dragon Ball is really boring to look at regardless of how talented some contributors are. Though his choreography and timing has improved over his career, just look take a look at this. There's an atmosphere, a texture to this that I don't think can be matched in the confines of modern Dragon Ball unless the current aesthetics are drastically reimagined, which won't happen in a million year.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Zephyr » Wed May 24, 2017 8:11 pm

I think the major pitfall that cripples and inherently neuters the aesthetic appeal of modern Dragon Ball on the whole is that Yamamuro is the anime's character designer, and his art has become horrid.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed May 24, 2017 8:17 pm

Zephyr wrote:I think the major pitfall that cripples and inherently neuters the aesthetic appeal of modern Dragon Ball on the whole is that Yamamuro is the anime's character designer, and his art has become horrid.
Is it really horrible? I probably would've said the same thing back when I was a bit more invested, but when I look at it objectively, the only thing that's actually bad is that he seems to have something against properly drawn noses, and he's replaced them all with utterly nonsensical face holes. Other than that, aside from occasionally questionable proportions and empty shading, it's just painfully inoffensive. In-line with my previous post, it's so boring to look at.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 8:40 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Though modern Shida is a sight to behold, you have to keep in mind that he's every bit as crippled by the same pitfalls of modern Dragon Ball that everyone else is, which can quite frankly be summed up in one word: boring. Dragon Ball is really boring to look at regardless of how talented some contributors are. Though his choreography and timing has improved over his career, just look take a look at this. There's an atmosphere, a texture to this that I don't think can be matched in the confines of modern Dragon Ball unless the current aesthetics are drastically reimagined, which won't happen in a million year.
I don't get it. You mean the old atmosphere is boring to look at? Because, if yes i really don't agree. This fragment that you sent is really great, I could watch this in looping.
(Even if you're talking about the modern Shida, I think the same: I could watch his cuts the whole day)
Sorry for the bad English, it's not my native language ^^'

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 8:42 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I think the major pitfall that cripples and inherently neuters the aesthetic appeal of modern Dragon Ball on the whole is that Yamamuro is the anime's character designer, and his art has become horrid.
Is it really horrible? I probably would've said the same thing back when I was a bit more invested, but when I look at it objectively, the only thing that's actually bad is that he seems to have something against properly drawn noses, and he's replaced them all with utterly nonsensical face holes. Other than that, aside from occasionally questionable proportions and empty shading, it's just painfully inoffensive. In-line with my previous post, it's so boring to look at.
It's not terrible, but it's really inferior to his older works. His actual character design is much less expressive and it's not too much detailed, and it does all the difference.
Sorry for the bad English, it's not my native language ^^'

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed May 24, 2017 8:44 pm

hectorgf wrote:I don't get it. You mean the old atmosphere is boring to look at? Because, if yes i really don't agree. This fragment that you sent is really great, I could watch this in looping.
(Even if you're talking about the modern Shida, I think the same: I could watch his cuts the whole day)
I'm saying that, though Shida is more talented than he ever has been, his work on Super doesn't live up to his work on older Dragon Ball in an atmospheric sense. Not because of him, but because Dragon Ball itself has become boring to look at. I'm being very generous, as well. I could compare his work on Super to that of other modern anime.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 8:57 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
hectorgf wrote:I don't get it. You mean the old atmosphere is boring to look at? Because, if yes i really don't agree. This fragment that you sent is really great, I could watch this in looping.
(Even if you're talking about the modern Shida, I think the same: I could watch his cuts the whole day)
I'm saying that, though Shida is more talented than he ever has been, his work on Super doesn't live up to his work on older Dragon Ball in an atmospheric sense. Not because of him, but because Dragon Ball itself has become boring to look at. I'm being very generous, as well. I could compare his work on Super to that of other modern anime.
Oh, what a different point of view of "boring", that's interesting.
But I can't understand how can it be boring to look at.
Sorry for the bad English, it's not my native language ^^'

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed May 24, 2017 9:15 pm

hectorgf wrote:Oh, what a different point of view of "boring", that's interesting.
But I can't understand how can it be boring to look at.
Keep in mind that I'm talking in relative terms, and also the context in which his cuts reside. His animation itself is absolutely fine, but... well. I guess instead of putting it into words, I'll just list infinitely better examples of his work from the first couple of pages from sakugabooru:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
His work on DBS, and BoG to a lesser extent, feel so empty in comparison.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 10:35 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: His work on DBS, and BoG to a lesser extent, feel so empty in comparison.
Okay, I think I get you better this time. You're talking that his work is boring in comparison to his other works, and I was talking about his work exclusively in DBS. But yeah, looking this way, his work in DBS really looks lazy. The speed and intensity of the first video is awesome, the consistency of the artcombined with the absurd fluidity of the movements works so well..Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I hope he can make scenes like this in DBS, one day, his work on the opening was kind of disappointing.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Bansho64 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:00 pm

I'm glad some of y'all feel the same way! :P

But yeah, while Super does have some good and awesome animation, I just don't feel that they can hold even the slightest candle to even some of the real gritty and naturally looking scenes of the past. For example, this scene. Just great.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by hectorgf » Wed May 24, 2017 11:13 pm

Bansho64 wrote:I'm glad some of y'all feel the same way! :P

But yeah, while Super does have some good and awesome animation, I just don't feel that they can hold even the slightest candle to even some of the real gritty and naturally looking scenes of the past. For example, this scene. Just great.
Yeah!!! This cut, especially the part made by Minoru Maeda feels so...full of "life".But it' probably the effect of the cel animation, I don't know if it's just the movements.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Wed May 24, 2017 11:27 pm

I agree that older Dragon Ball looks more pleasing aesthetically, but using Super as a reference to say modern Dragon Ball is visually boring is flawed.

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed May 24, 2017 11:34 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:I agree that older Dragon Ball looks more pleasing aesthetically, but using Super as a reference to say modern Dragon Ball is visually boring is flawed.
Not at all. It's boring in comparison to its former self, it's boring in comparison to other modern shonen, and it's boring in comparison to anime as a whole. Moreover, I don't even need to make those comparisons, because I could just look at Super, give a nice, wet, 30 second yawn, and my point is proven.

Unless there's some other modern Dragon Ball anime that I'm not aware of, it's perfectly valid.
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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by Zephyr » Thu May 25, 2017 3:50 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Zephyr wrote:I think the major pitfall that cripples and inherently neuters the aesthetic appeal of modern Dragon Ball on the whole is that Yamamuro is the anime's character designer, and his art has become horrid.
Is it really horrible? I probably would've said the same thing back when I was a bit more invested, but when I look at it objectively, the only thing that's actually bad is that he seems to have something against properly drawn noses, and he's replaced them all with utterly nonsensical face holes. Other than that, aside from occasionally questionable proportions and empty shading, it's just painfully inoffensive. In-line with my previous post, it's so boring to look at.
I think it goes well being just the noses. I'm certainly not an expert on the art and craft of illustration, so I may have a hard time trying to articulate what precisely I dislike about it. But, to take a stab at it: The lighting and shading look random and weird; everyone looks bloated, plastic, and glossy. I might just be biased toward the Maeda and 90's Yamamuro, who knows. Could just be me.

Here's some good required reading on the matter, from posters far more knowledgeable of and qualified to accurately articulate the reasons behind the difference in the art quality.

Some comparison pics, to aid in illustrating the distinction I'm trying to explain:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

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Re: GT or Super? Which one is the best?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Thu May 25, 2017 9:35 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:I agree that older Dragon Ball looks more pleasing aesthetically, but using Super as a reference to say modern Dragon Ball is visually boring is flawed.
Not at all. It's boring in comparison to its former self, it's boring in comparison to other modern shonen, and it's boring in comparison to anime as a whole. Moreover, I don't even need to make those comparisons, because I could just look at Super, give a nice, wet, 30 second yawn, and my point is proven.

Unless there's some other modern Dragon Ball anime that I'm not aware of, it's perfectly valid.
No you really can't. Super was plagued with almost no product time. Which in-turn hurt the visuals of the show immensely, not just only were the visuals hurt. The lack of preproduction caused a ripple effect among all other aspects of production to sound, storyboarding, directing, and writing. Making everything else almost play catchup, I doubt you would be saying Super looks boring if mostly every single episode that aired wasn't rushed. Also, I don't agree with you saying it's boring compared to modern anime in all. It seems your just going off the deep end now, most modern anime look akin to Super. Flat and shiny- the only difference is that most anime had preproduction time-while Super didn't.

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