Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

[ABED]

There was a mystery for the first third of the Cell arc, and no Trunks doesn't say everything about the bad guy, he doesn't know why things are so drastically different from his timeline.
When could they contact New Namek?

There's no mystery anywhere, Trunks tells them everything about Gero, who he is, what he is, when he'll attack and all of that, the only "mystery" comes from the fact Toriyama hastily retcons 17 and 18 into being the Androids when it was originally 19 and 20 as seen by Trunks' dialogue to Goku. There's also no mystery with Cell since he tells Piccolo his whole backstory almost immediately.

They can use King Kai to contact New Namek and revive themselves. Yeah, Goku can't come back and Vegeta's in Hell for sure but what's Piccolo doing in the afterlife, twiddling his thumbs? Surely if he got revived and traind with Gohan for a good long time then fused with Kami they could beat the weaker 17 and 18 sooner rather than later? That's not even taking into account the ROSAT.

You may not like how the mystery is written, but it is a mystery. Cell tells him his back story which is a third of the way through the story. Assuming you knew nothing of how the arc was written, the change from 17 and 18 to 19 and 20 doesn't come off as a retcon at all. It's a change resulting from Trunks and Cell time traveling. There are constantly questions being raised, then answered, and then new ones raised. That's how mysteries work. It's Who is this kid? How is he a Super Saiyan? He's Vegeta's and Bulma's son. Why is he here? To tell Goku about the cyborgs. Why is everything so different? Because of tampering with the timeline. Why does Kami have such a sense of foreboding? All questions asked and then answered over the course of about 30 episodes. That qualifies as a mystery.

How do they contact Kaio if Goku is dead?

[ekrolo2]

You may not like how the mystery is written, but it is a mystery. Cell tells him his back story which is a third of the way through the story. Assuming you knew nothing of how the arc was written, the change from 17 and 18 to 19 and 20 doesn't come off as a retcon at all. It's a change resulting from Trunks and Cell time traveling. There are constantly questions being raised, then answered, and then new ones raised. That's how mysteries work. It's Who is this kid? How is he a Super Saiyan? He's Vegeta's and Bulma's son. Why is he here? To tell Goku about the cyborgs. Why is everything so different? Because of tampering with the timeline. Why does Kami have such a sense of foreboding? All questions asked and then answered over the course of about 30 episodes. That qualifies as a mystery.

How do they contact Kaio if Goku is dead?

It's not me knowing Toriyama was editorially mandated: Trunks blatantly says "19 and 20 are the Androids of the future!" then when he actually sees 19 and 20 the entire story and everyone in it acts as though he ALWAYS meant 17 and 18. If Lapis and Lazuli (I'm gonna call them that this time for simplicity sake) were the 19 and 20 of this altered timeline and Trunks couldn't have forseene this, that'd be a good way of throwing the reader for a loop, as it stands, it's a retcon.
The mysteries barely count specifically because it's all answered relatively quickly, Imperfect Cell doesn't even have 5 chapters of screen time before he tells Piccolo his origins, his hopes, his dreams, his secret racist opinions, his myspace account info and 19 and 20 suffer from much of the same.
Everyone dead keeps their bodies anyway when they die, thus, Piccolo would go to King Kai's again and would try to get revived by contacting New Namek, the fact no one who dies seemingly attempts to do anything to come back to life and help Gohan just makes them look like massive assholes. And not even them putting martial arts over common sense, just non-caring dick heads.

[ABED]

You may not like how the mystery is written, but it is a mystery. Cell tells him his back story which is a third of the way through the story. Assuming you knew nothing of how the arc was written, the change from 17 and 18 to 19 and 20 doesn't come off as a retcon at all. It's a change resulting from Trunks and Cell time traveling. There are constantly questions being raised, then answered, and then new ones raised. That's how mysteries work. It's Who is this kid? How is he a Super Saiyan? He's Vegeta's and Bulma's son. Why is he here? To tell Goku about the cyborgs. Why is everything so different? Because of tampering with the timeline. Why does Kami have such a sense of foreboding? All questions asked and then answered over the course of about 30 episodes. That qualifies as a mystery.

How do they contact Kaio if Goku is dead?

It's not me knowing Toriyama was editorially mandated: Trunks blatantly says "19 and 20 are the Androids of the future!" then when he actually sees 19 and 20 the entire story and everyone in it acts as though he ALWAYS meant 17 and 18. If Lapis and Lazuli (I'm gonna call them that this time for simplicity sake) were the 19 and 20 of this altered timeline and Trunks couldn't have forseene this, that'd be a good way of throwing the reader for a loop, as it stands, it's a retcon.
The mysteries barely count specifically because it's all answered relatively quickly, Imperfect Cell doesn't even have 5 chapters of screen time before he tells Piccolo his origins, his hopes, his dreams, his secret racist opinions, his myspace account info and 19 and 20 suffer from much of the same.
Everyone dead keeps their bodies anyway when they die, thus, Piccolo would go to King Kai's again and would try to get revived by contacting New Namek, the fact no one who dies seemingly attempts to do anything to come back to life and help Gohan just makes them look like massive assholes. And not even them putting martial arts over common sense, just non-caring dick heads.

That can be chalked up to a continuity error. You are making a FAR bigger deal about that one thing than you really should. In universe, the timespan between the dragon balls' first use and the Red Ribbon arc is 8 months, but I dont' see you making a huge deal about that. As I recall, the mistake was fixed in the anime.

Whether you think the mystery lasted long enough is of little consequence, it was a mystery. We didn't know why things were so radically different until about a third of the way through. Yes, Cell giving up his story that quick was very slapdash, but it was still 1/3 of the way through the arc before we got the answer, so that counts as a mystery. Questions were posed, answered, posed, answered, posed, and answered for a good chunk of the arc, ergo it's a mystery.

And lastly, this isn't a show about superheroes. They can be dickheads, all that matters is if the stories are interesting and if the characters are acting in character. Letting the enemies go is in character.

[TekTheNinja]

^ agree with the above. You can't introduce "absolute" characters I.e. "Strongest in the universe" have your character topple that challenge easily and then continue a long series. If you think back to Saturday morning cartoons, the good guys almost never fought and defeated the main bad guy directly. Defeating the ultimate challenge meant making another challenge that wasn't present before. That's difficult to explain narrative wise on where that threat suddenly came from. Toriyama definitely worked around it in various ways but it wasn't exactly clean or smooth.

Difficult, but not impossible.

True. Case and point: One Punch Man.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

In some ways I see them being too strong. Despite being gods with the supposed power to be able to destroy universes, they can't exactly do that without killing themselves any everything in it, so it doesn't really make any sense for the characters to be that strong physically, as opposed to just being better honed warriors which the series does not seem to promote anymore. Also because everything is just solved with a rage boost, characters just seem strong to pointless levels now. There is also the mess of inconsistency with the scaling because the writers base how strong they need to be on the situation now which often contradicts itself. If Toriyama just limited the main characters to a certain peak but made the villains progressively stronger, then the tension and actual challenge for the characters would be there without it just being a ki-measuring contest all the time. It seems to devalue the point of training when all they do is just a simple routine and then their ki just infinitely explodes to a new tier and its boring with the gigantic boosts at the pettiest of costs. While the other characters with the slower to progression they've had felt more naturally paced.

In general I just don't like how overpowered being a Saiyan has become especially. After the first SS form, the power boosts just seemed to just get so drastic and that it turned me off immensely. Because they get stronger so quickly; it not only constantly eclipses the other characters in their conveniences, but it vastly overpowers them to the point of absurdity to me in their universe. Even though most main villains are at least just as strong, it leads people now (especially in Super) to just assume every character they fight is just as strong as they are regardless of performance. I bet if Tarble or Pan became a Super Saiyan, automatically they would just be classed as stronger than Freeza just because they're in the form that beat Freeza.

[Rukawa11]

I hate almost everything from the Android arc that you mention. Future Trunks' very existence is a horrid contrivance that doesn't work as its own universe once you remember stuff like the dead being allowed to keep their bodies and being able to contact New Namek with King Kai's help, not to mention the moronic time travel rules that forefathers the Black arc's even more egregious shortcomings. There wasn't any mystery period to the Androids, Future Trunks just blatantly says everything about the bad guy like a walking Wikipedia and while Cell starts out good, the closer he reaches perfection, the more generic he becomes.

Incoherence is inevitable in many long-running Shounen series and it doesn't detract from the quality of the Trunks/ Android/ Cell story line. DBZ is fraught with things that don't make sense even before the Namek arc. For instance, when Goku was brought back to life the first time, couldn't he have used Kaioken to arrive at the battlefield within seconds instead of riding Kinto-un? Piccolo was still alive when Goku descended to earth. Goku couldn't have been that keen on conserving his strength even at the cost of the dragonballs disappearing upon Piccolo's death.

As for the mystery part, I still believe it was abundant during the Trunks/ Android/ and early Cell arc: Trunks not recognizing Android 19 and 20; the existence of Android 16 and how this had led Android 17 to speculate why Dr. Gero would create a full-fledged Android instead of using a "human base" as with himself and Android 18; Bulma discovering a worn-out time machine which Trunks would identify as his own; The Z fighters suddenly sensing everybody's ki (including Frieza and Goku's) and wondering how everyone is gathered in the same place; and finally, Cell's appearance.

The only reason I agree with people who say Cell should've been the end is because the series overall drops massively in quality after Namek and doesn't recover from it.

I would say it becomes extremely limited following Namek, but the quality certainly doesn't drop. For one thing, the sight of Vegeta and Trunks as Super Saiyans was a welcome one as it (together with Goku, of course) contributed to DBZ being as iconic as it is today. The only disappointment is that Toriyama couldn't fit a Goku vs. Vegeta fight anywhere in that long arc and had to wait until the Babidi Spaceship arc to do it. DBZ's decline in my opinion first takes place after Majin Vegeta blows himself up and Piccolo begins teaching Trunks and Goten the fusion dance. If only the last 60 or so episodes weren't made and instead we had sixty episodes during the five-year break between the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and Raditz's arrival.

[ekrolo2]

Incoherence is inevitable in many long-running Shounen series and it doesn't detract from the quality of the Trunks/ Android/ Cell story line. DBZ is fraught with things that don't make sense even before the Namek arc. For instance, when Goku was brought back to life the first time, couldn't he have used Kaioken to arrive at the battlefield within seconds instead of riding Kinto-un? Piccolo was still alive when Goku descended to earth. Goku couldn't have been that keen on conserving his strength even at the cost of the dragonballs disappearing upon Piccolo's death.

Kaio-ken is used for short spurts and the characters aren't at a level where they can cross entire planets at length in a matter of seconds. KK is especially not good this early on where Goku can only use the barest form of it with a level above already being crippling for him.

As for the mystery part, I still believe it was abundant during the Trunks/ Android/ and early Cell arc: Trunks not recognizing Android 19 and 20; the existence of Android 16 and how this had led Android 17 to speculate why Dr. Gero would create a full-fledged Android instead of using a "human base" as with himself and Android 18; Bulma discovering a worn-out time machine which Trunks would identify as his own; The Z fighters suddenly sensing everybody's ki (including Frieza and Goku's) and wondering how everyone is gathered in the same place; and finally, Cell's appearance.

And all of this amounts to nothing because the arc is ultimately a hot mess of contrivances and what "mysteries" exist are resolved almost immediately. I hate to praise Dragon Ball Super but at least that had the common sense to not spoil Black's entire backstory 5 minutes after he shows up the way the Cell arc does with everything.

Also, 19 and 20 were the original Androids, Future Trunks even has dialogue where he says so, its only later when editorial mandates kick in that he starts to act like he always meant 17 and 18 and no one brings this up. Now, if Trunks' time travel made 17 and 18 the 19 and 20 of the main timeline, this would a retcon but also a clever way of masking it in universe. Instead, Trunks means one thing then everything afterwards pretends like he didn't.

I would say it becomes extremely limited following Namek, but the quality certainly doesn't drop. For one thing, the sight of Vegeta and Trunks as Super Saiyans was a welcome one as it (together with Goku, of course) contributed to DBZ being as iconic as it is today. The only disappointment is that Toriyama couldn't fit a Goku vs. Vegeta fight anywhere in that long arc and had to wait until the Babidi Spaceship arc to do it. DBZ's decline in my opinion first takes place after Majin Vegeta blows himself up and Piccolo begins teaching Trunks and Goten the fusion dance. If only the last 60 or so episodes weren't made and instead we had sixty episodes during the five-year break between the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and Raditz's arrival.

The entire Cell arc shits on everything Namek said about the Super Saiyan form and why Goku can achieve it when Vegeta can't. On Namek, after Freeza finally admits that Goku is an SS, he even says that Goku's pure heart is what allows him to ascend when Vegeta being a bastard made it impossible for him no matter what how angry he got. Then, him being a pure, rotten to the core bastard lets him become a Super Saiyan.... What?! The fact he IS a bastard is what made it impossible to do in the first place! Why can he do it now?!

The decline in quality starts with the Android arc as far as I'm concerned, the worst part is when Imperfect Cell arrives onto the islands, everything from then on is either horrendously boring or mind numbingly stupid. The series truly devolves into an unfunny parody of itself there.

[TheGreatness25]

There is no limit. As characters get stronger, that just means that their enemies have to get stronger. There's no shame in going down a notch from the villains too. What I mean by that is like Freeza to Cell; Freeza was an intergalactic dictator and Cell... Cell was just some creature who was terrorizing the Earth. Certainly Cell's threat was on a much, much smaller scale than Freeza's, and yet, the story naturally progressed.

I think that Super might have hit that limiting area when suddenly a punch between two characters can destroy the planet. Up until that point, it was fully feasible and plausible that as the characters got stronger, all that needed to happen was to get stronger villains. It's a very simple formula. If anything, having much stronger characters can open the door to much more possibilities, such as being able to travel to different dimensions, planets, etc. without the use of a spaceship and 10 episodes.

So, in short, I think that the only thing that limits Akira Toriyama is that he doesn't seem to have a nice, streamlined, well thought out story.

[Thouser]

I've yet to confirm the following information, but Toriyama may have intended for DB/Z to end with planet namek blowing up and Goku dying. If the decision to continue the series was made shortly before reaching that point, then there was little he could do to set things right. Make no mistake, though, the appearance of Future Trunks, the whole mystery about there being more androids than Trunks' timeline, and Cell appearing and messing up the events of history even more were a masterstroke. It's really the Majin Boo arc that annoys me. If it didn't feature that rematch between Goku and Vegeta, the series would've suffered its first decline.

There is no evidence that Toriyama planned to end the series with Freeza, or for Goku to die on Namek. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

[SaiyanGod117]

Yea, I want an adventure arc but I don't know he can bring forth tension and suspense if everyone already is already universe buster. It would be very poor storytelling if half the people in a universe have the power to destroy it.

[Rukawa11]

The entire Cell arc shits on everything Namek said about the Super Saiyan form and why Goku can achieve it when Vegeta can't. On Namek, after Freeza finally admits that Goku is an SS, he even says that Goku's pure heart is what allows him to ascend when Vegeta being a bastard made it impossible for him no matter what how angry he got. Then, him being a pure, rotten to the core bastard lets him become a Super Saiyan.... What?! The fact he IS a bastard is what made it impossible to do in the first place! Why can he do it now?!

It's never been suggested in Namek that there was only one way to become Super Saiyan. The pure heart thing was merely Freeza's perception, he didn't know any better. The reason Goku went ssj before Vegeta is simply because Goku was stronger and he had Krillin's death to churn up his anger. Vegeta never experienced the same anger until he saw that his 450 g training was going nowhere and he kept remembering Goku and Trunks being ssj. Same thing applies to Future Trunks and Gohan. It's really Goten and Chibi Trunks' ssj transformations that are bs.

The decline in quality starts with the Android arc as far as I'm concerned, the worst part is when Imperfect Cell arrives onto the islands, everything from then on is either horrendously boring or mind numbingly stupid. The series truly devolves into an unfunny parody of itself there.

I think the Cell arc played a major role in expanding DBZ's fanbase and making it the unforgettable series it is today. I daresay there wouldn't have been as many video games either if DBZ had ended with Namek's destruction. Creating something as memorable as Super Saiyan and not experimenting with it a little more would've been criminal. By having Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all turn ssj, Toriyama has created this overwhelmingly catchy image that made the series irresistible to many (Saint Seiya's "Gold Saints" or Naruto's "Uchiha clan/ Sharingan" couldn't achieve the same impact although they're memorable in their own right). And yes, the Cell arc definitely had enough substance as not to be a strictly visual effort. For one thing, the inter-character relationships was unprecedented as far as DB/Z was concerned. Future Trunks witnessing with his own eyes that Vegeta was every bit the cold-hearted bastard his mother told him about, and his subsequent efforts to get Vegeta to accept him were good stuff. Also, many later shounen animes have bonds of friendship or brotherhood, but not many have the Father-Son chemistry witnessed between Goku and Gohan and Vegeta and Trunks.

And all of this amounts to nothing because the arc is ultimately a hot mess of contrivances and what "mysteries" exist are resolved almost immediately.

They're resolved immediately only for more questions to be raised. Mysteries don't have to be things that take twenty or so episodes to be resolved. It is a fact that, from Trunks' appearance to Cell explaining everything to Piccolo, there's been a barrage of questions and answers that even the fighting itself had taken a backseat. I consider this quite a feat. My personal favorite Anime after Dragonball is Yuyu Hakusho (which happens to a much more revered fighting Anime due to its filler-free content and good pacing) and yet there isn't a single episode that gets you to think of anything other than how the fighting will be resolved.

[Gog]

You may not like how the mystery is written, but it is a mystery. Cell tells him his back story which is a third of the way through the story. Assuming you knew nothing of how the arc was written, the change from 17 and 18 to 19 and 20 doesn't come off as a retcon at all. It's a change resulting from Trunks and Cell time traveling. There are constantly questions being raised, then answered, and then new ones raised. That's how mysteries work. It's Who is this kid? How is he a Super Saiyan? He's Vegeta's and Bulma's son. Why is he here? To tell Goku about the cyborgs. Why is everything so different? Because of tampering with the timeline. Why does Kami have such a sense of foreboding? All questions asked and then answered over the course of about 30 episodes. That qualifies as a mystery.

How do they contact Kaio if Goku is dead?

It's not me knowing Toriyama was editorially mandated: Trunks blatantly says "19 and 20 are the Androids of the future!" then when he actually sees 19 and 20 the entire story and everyone in it acts as though he ALWAYS meant 17 and 18. If Lapis and Lazuli (I'm gonna call them that this time for simplicity sake) were the 19 and 20 of this altered timeline and Trunks couldn't have forseene this, that'd be a good way of throwing the reader for a loop, as it stands, it's a retcon.
The mysteries barely count specifically because it's all answered relatively quickly, Imperfect Cell doesn't even have 5 chapters of screen time before he tells Piccolo his origins, his hopes, his dreams, his secret racist opinions, his myspace account info and 19 and 20 suffer from much of the same.
Everyone dead keeps their bodies anyway when they die, thus, Piccolo would go to King Kai's again and would try to get revived by contacting New Namek, the fact no one who dies seemingly attempts to do anything to come back to life and help Gohan just makes them look like massive assholes. And not even them putting martial arts over common sense, just non-caring dick heads.

You mustn't have realized the ultimate trick to enjoying the android arc, and cell arc, you just don't think about anything.

Don't think about how Freeza the best villain came back to only be brushed a side.

Don't think about how the future timeline collapses the moment you put a modicum of thought into it, and the whole reason why it exists is because Toriyama wanted a plot similar to Terminator, but never stopped to think how that plot just collapses in the face of TWO whole sets of dragon balls, Baba, the fact that King Kai can telepathically locate, and contact the namekians on new namek to revive the fighters, or have Goku, and the gang train on King kai's then destroy the androids when its time.

Don't think about how an old insane man was capable of creating two-no THREE androids and a bio android stronger than the EMPORER of the galaxy, and the legendary super Saiyan, or how he was capable of doing this while he had nothing but SCRAPS IN A CAVE.

Don't think about all the useless super Saiyan forms, those only purpose it seemed was to only widen the gap between the fighters, until you had to be a Saiyan to be relevant to the plot.

Don't think about Cell and how boring he was, don't think about how much wasted potential cell had, don't think about the fact that Cell just ended up as another random doomsday villian. Just. Don't. Think. About. It

Don't think about how Cell was capable of creating several smaller versions of himself equal to Trunks, and Vegeta in strength. AN ABILITY NEVER FORE SHADOWED.

Don't think about how Gohan suddenly became a pacifist, and didn't want to fight Cell, even though he fought against Freeza.

Don't Comprehend the fact that Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan two (never foreshadowed) in a blind fit of rage for android 16 who he logically shouldn't give a shit for, but Cell arc(tm)

Don't think about how Cell instantly learn instant transmission from seeing goku use it, or how he managed to keep his perfect form while, he didn't contain ANDROID 18 THE KEY TO UNLOCKING AND KEEPING HIS PERFECT FORM

If you can follow these steps, and ignore a few others you should enjoy the two arcs.

[Rukawa11]

You mustn't have realized the ultimate trick to enjoying the android arc, and cell arc, you just don't think about anything.

Don't think about how Freeza the best villain came back to only be brushed a side.

Don't think about how the future timeline collapses the moment you put a modicum of thought into it, and the whole reason why it exists is because Toriyama wanted a plot similar to Terminator, but never stopped to think how that plot just collapses in the face of TWO whole sets of dragon balls, Baba, the fact that King Kai can telepathically locate, and contact the namekians on new namek to revive the fighters, or have Goku, and the gang train on King kai's then destroy the androids when its time.

Don't think about how an old insane man was capable of creating two-no THREE androids and a bio android stronger than the EMPORER of the galaxy, and the legendary super Saiyan, or how he was capable of doing this while he had nothing but SCRAPS IN A CAVE.

Don't think about all the useless super Saiyan forms, those only purpose it seemed was to only widen the gap between the fighters, until you had to be a Saiyan to be relevant to the plot.

Don't think about Cell and how boring he was, don't think about how much wasted potential cell had, don't think about the fact that Cell just ended up as another random doomsday villian. Just. Don't. Think. About. It

Don't think about how Cell was capable of creating several smaller versions of himself equal to Trunks, and Vegeta in strength. AN ABILITY NEVER FORE SHADOWED.

Don't think about how Gohan suddenly became a pacifist, and didn't want to fight Cell, even though he fought against Freeza.

Don't Comprehend the fact that Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan two (never foreshadowed) in a blind fit of rage for android 16 who he logically shouldn't give a shit for, but Cell arc(tm)

Don't think about how Cell instantly learn instant transmission from seeing goku use it, or how he managed to keep his perfect form while, he didn't contain ANDROID 18 THE KEY TO UNLOCKING AND KEEPING HIS PERFECT FORM

If you can follow these steps, and ignore a few others you should enjoy the two arcs.

I don't know about probing this deeply. Most Animes would be rendered incomprehensible that way.

[Gog]

You mustn't have realized the ultimate trick to enjoying the android arc, and cell arc, you just don't think about anything.

Don't think about how Freeza the best villain came back to only be brushed a side.

Don't think about how the future timeline collapses the moment you put a modicum of thought into it, and the whole reason why it exists is because Toriyama wanted a plot similar to Terminator, but never stopped to think how that plot just collapses in the face of TWO whole sets of dragon balls, Baba, the fact that King Kai can telepathically locate, and contact the namekians on new namek to revive the fighters, or have Goku, and the gang train on King kai's then destroy the androids when its time.

Don't think about how an old insane man was capable of creating two-no THREE androids and a bio android stronger than the EMPORER of the galaxy, and the legendary super Saiyan, or how he was capable of doing this while he had nothing but SCRAPS IN A CAVE.

Don't think about all the useless super Saiyan forms, those only purpose it seemed was to only widen the gap between the fighters, until you had to be a Saiyan to be relevant to the plot.

Don't think about Cell and how boring he was, don't think about how much wasted potential cell had, don't think about the fact that Cell just ended up as another random doomsday villian. Just. Don't. Think. About. It

Don't think about how Cell was capable of creating several smaller versions of himself equal to Trunks, and Vegeta in strength. AN ABILITY NEVER FORE SHADOWED.

Don't think about how Gohan suddenly became a pacifist, and didn't want to fight Cell, even though he fought against Freeza.

Don't Comprehend the fact that Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan two (never foreshadowed) in a blind fit of rage for android 16 who he logically shouldn't give a shit for, but Cell arc(tm)

Don't think about how Cell instantly learn instant transmission from seeing goku use it, or how he managed to keep his perfect form while, he didn't contain ANDROID 18 THE KEY TO UNLOCKING AND KEEPING HIS PERFECT FORM

If you can follow these steps, and ignore a few others you should enjoy the two arcs.

I don't know about probing this deeply. Most Animes would be rendered incomprehensible that way.

No, if an anime was this bad then you may as well call it sword art online.

Cell games/android arc confirmed the sword art online arc of dragon ball

[ekrolo2]

It's never been suggested in Namek that there was only one way to become Super Saiyan. The pure heart thing was merely Freeza's perception, he didn't know any better. The reason Goku went ssj before Vegeta is simply because Goku was stronger and he had Krillin's death to churn up his anger. Vegeta never experienced the same anger until he saw that his 450 g training was going nowhere and he kept remembering Goku and Trunks being ssj. Same thing applies to Future Trunks and Gohan. It's really Goten and Chibi Trunks' ssj transformations that are bs.

Vegeta's gravity thing is anime filler only, we see next to nothing of his training or his initial SS transformation but Namek makes this very clear: Vegeta can't become a Super Saiyan because he is an entirely deplorable, remorseless bastard who doesn't care about anything but himself. That's why when his anger and desperation explode against Final Form Freeza, he can't transform into a Super Saiyan.

Then in the Android arc him being a purely remorseless bastard is what lets him become a Super Saiyan. It doesn't make sense or work, Goku can do it because he's, for all of his selfishness, a good person while deep down Vegeta isn't.

I think the Cell arc played a major role in expanding DBZ's fanbase and making it the unforgettable series it is today. I daresay there wouldn't have been as many video games either if DBZ had ended with Namek's destruction. Creating something as memorable as Super Saiyan and not experimenting with it a little more would've been criminal. By having Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan all turn ssj, Toriyama has created this overwhelmingly catchy image that made the series irresistible to many (Saint Seiya's "Gold Saints" or Naruto's "Uchiha clan/ Sharingan" couldn't achieve the same impact although they're memorable in their own right). And yes, the Cell arc definitely had enough substance as not to be a strictly visual effort. For one thing, the inter-character relationships was unprecedented as far as DB/Z was concerned. Future Trunks witnessing with his own eyes that Vegeta was every bit the cold-hearted bastard his mother told him about, and his subsequent efforts to get Vegeta to accept him were good stuff. Also, many later shounen animes have bonds of friendship or brotherhood, but not many have the Father-Son chemistry witnessed between Goku and Gohan and Vegeta and Trunks.

Just because it made the series popular doesn't make it good though, yes, Super Saiyan became a highlight of the series and an iconic part of it to people who don't even watch the show. In-universe, however, Super Saiyan becomes a total joke when a remorseless shit head like Vegeta can get it when 15 chapters ago he CAN'T get it because of the same fact. Another thing that makes it a bad creative decision to just hand SS out to everyone is that Toriyama doesn't even try to diversify the forms.

Everyone gets the same SS, the same SS2 and the same SS3. If every character had his own form of SS so they all didn't function the same it would've made it less obnoxious and added some variety to the series but he didn't.

The Father-Son thing barely exists in the manga, Vegeta doesn't give a fuck about Trunks at any point before he dies and when Vegeta snaps, the audience has to make shit up to explain this when the material itself doesn't give you anything to go by. After the ROSAT (not counting anime filler shit), Vegeta treats Trunks the same way as he did before: with utter disdain at best.

They're resolved immediately only for more questions to be raised. Mysteries don't have to be things that take twenty or so episodes to be resolved. It is a fact that, from Trunks' appearance to Cell explaining everything to Piccolo, there's been a barrage of questions and answers that even the fighting itself had taken a backseat. I consider this quite a feat. My personal favorite Anime after Dragonball is Yuyu Hakusho (which happens to a much more revered fighting Anime due to its filler-free content and good pacing) and yet there isn't a single episode that gets you to think of anything other than how the fighting will be resolved.

They don't also have to be resolved immediately the way they are in the Cell arc, you say there's a barrage of questions asked and you're right and then five seconds later they're all answered. It makes characters like Cell, who is pragmatic in his Imperfect Form, look like a moron when he's giving Piccolo his whole life story and it also gives the good guys an edge when a story is always more interesting when the good guys are preassured.

Seriously, remove Future Trunks and Cell's speech to Piccolo from the story and you've removed almost all of the contrivances of the entire arc, you'd have a good mystery for the audience and the characters if not several simultaneous ones to figure out.

[ShadowBardock89]

I always assumed the ability to create Cell Juniors came from Piccolo (King Piccolo, that is) with his Pokopen ability.
So, no issue there for me.

[Nejishiki]

Vegeta never experienced the same anger until he saw that his 450 g training was going nowhere and he kept remembering Goku and Trunks being ssj. Same thing applies to Future Trunks and Gohan. It's really Goten and Chibi Trunks' ssj transformations that are bs.

With the specifics of how they transformed never being detailed (aside from easily mastering it), I don't particularly find foul over Trunks & Goten experiencing extreme anger with their first time, too. Of course, it goes without saying their hearts were tranquil alongside the fact.

I always assumed the ability to create Cell Juniors came from Piccolo (King Piccolo, that is) with his Pokopen ability.
So, no issue there for me.

I share the same feeling. Cell had a tendency to utilize the biology or traits of others in sneaky ways.

[ABED]

Don't think about how Cell was capable of creating several smaller versions of himself equal to Trunks, and Vegeta in strength. AN ABILITY NEVER FORE SHADOWED.

He has Piccolo's cells.

Don't Comprehend the fact that Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan two (never foreshadowed)

Gohan has a seemingly endless well of potential, and while I find it annoying, that still constitutes a set up.

Don't think about how Cell instantly learn instant transmission from seeing goku use it

Goku learned the Kamehameha after having watched it once.

Don't think about how the future timeline collapses the moment you put a modicum of thought into it, and the whole reason why it exists is because Toriyama wanted a plot similar to Terminator, but never stopped to think how that plot just collapses in the face of TWO whole sets of dragon balls, Baba, the fact that King Kai can telepathically locate, and contact the namekians on new namek to revive the fighters, or have Goku, and the gang train on King kai's then destroy the androids when its time.

Time travel plots ALWAYS fall apart upon closer examination, even The Terminator. And should Kaio intervene every time a planet faces a crisis?

[Rukawa11]

Vegeta's gravity thing is anime filler only, we see next to nothing of his training or his initial SS transformation

While filler is used for elongating purposes about 95% of the time, there are a few instances where its creation actually covers up a Mangaka's mistake or helps emphasize a point he hadn't touched upon. Vegeta's decision to train under the same circumstances as Goku with four times the intensity is quite logical and it's something Toriyama should've considered. The father-son bonding between Vegeta and Trunks was also a much-needed addition as it gave both characters a whole other dimension.

Another thing that makes it a bad creative decision to just hand SS out to everyone is that Toriyama doesn't even try to diversify the forms.

It's because all Super Saiyans look identical apart from their hairstyles and clothes that the catchiness factor was there in the first place. I'd agree that ssj became a joke during the Majin Boo arc, but it was too soon for it to become boring during the Cell arc.

Seriously, remove Future Trunks and Cell's speech to Piccolo from the story and you've removed almost all of the contrivances of the entire arc, you'd have a good mystery for the audience and the characters if not several simultaneous ones to figure out.

Imo, removing Cell's speech to Piccolo would destroy the tension leading up to Android 17's absorption. As for removing Trunks' speech to Goku, this would mean all the things that contradict Trunks' timeline, which he and the others discovered gradually in a "one shock after another" fashion would be gone. And without three sides after the Dragonballs like it was on Namek, the Cell arc would end up as bland as Majin Boo.

[ekrolo2]

While filler is used for elongating purposes about 95% of the time, there are a few instances where its creation actually covers up a Mangaka's mistake or helps emphasize a point he hadn't touched upon. Vegeta's decision to train under the same circumstances as Goku with four times the intensity is quite logical and it's something Toriyama should've considered. The father-son bonding between Vegeta and Trunks was also a much-needed addition as it gave both characters a whole other dimension.

It can be but if we're going to talk about the characters in their purest forms, we should use the manga as the primary source and ignore the anime and in the manga Vegeta's a remoresless bastard who can't get Super Saiyan because of it until he can later on. His relationship with Trunks is cool in concept but it never builds to anything because there's not even the slightest of hints that he doesn't hate Trunks' guts before he dies, not one.

It's because all Super Saiyans look identical apart from their hairstyles and clothes that the catchiness factor was there in the first place. I'd agree that ssj became a joke during the Majin Boo arc, but it was too soon for it to become boring during the Cell arc.

I don't mean aesthetics, I mean mechanics. Let Goku use KK with SS to power it up, let Trunks have some speed centered version of it, let Vegeta have one based around brute force & raw power, something to spice it up a bit.

Imo, removing Cell's speech to Piccolo would destroy the tension leading up to Android 17's absorption. As for removing Trunks' speech to Goku, this would mean all the things that contradict Trunks' timeline, which he and the others discovered gradually in a "one shock after another" fashion would be gone. And without three sides after the Dragonballs like it was on Namek, the Cell arc would end up as bland as Majin Boo.

Who's after the Dragon Ball's in the Android arc?

Also, by removing Trunks from the equation you'd have the whole cast, besides Vegeta who'd train to kill Goku regardless, be relaxed when 19 and 20 show up and no one would know who these guys are, what they want or how they operate and the cast is severely at a handicap from no training gains. Then you can have 17, 16, 18 mutiny later on, have Cell be prematurely released as Gero's final revenge on the whole world and most of the arc happens the same with a lot less contrivances hampering it.