Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Rukawa11 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:32 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I don't mean aesthetics, I mean mechanics. Let Goku use KK with SS to power it up, let Trunks have some speed centered version of it, let Vegeta have one based around brute force & raw power, something to spice it up a bit
Or even let Trunks fight with his sword the entire time in ssj mode. I see your point. Unfortunately, Toriyama was never keen on different fighting styles in DBZ (I partially understand why he didn't feel the need to. After all, DBZ's action was unprecedented at the time and it really put its contemporaries to shame. Not to mention this type of fighting is being ripped off to this very day by new Shounen animes. But the diversity in fighting styles is another point that makes DB superior to DBZ imo. In the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai for instance, Chaozu had his telekinesis, Yamucha his Rouga fufuken, Goku his speed that makes him circle his opponent in the ring without being detected (it became a staple during the Dragonball-influenced Rock Lee vs. Gaara fight in Naruto). He also had his tail, and most of all, his Zanzouken/ Afterimage technique which Toriyama failed to appreciate. Finally, Tenshinhan alone possessed three different fighting styles during that tournament.
ekrolo2 wrote:Who's after the Dragon Ball's in the Android arc?
No one, I meant that without a dragonball hunt (much less one that consisted of three sides like in Namek), the Cell arc would be as bland as Majin Boo.

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:15 pm

His relationship with Trunks is cool in concept but it never builds to anything because there's not even the slightest of hints that he doesn't hate Trunks' guts before he dies, not one.
It's not as though he's full of gushing sentiment afterwards. The most affection he shows him is a slight nod "goodbye". It's subtle character development.
have Cell be prematurely released as Gero's final revenge on the whole world and most of the arc happens the same with a lot less contrivances hampering it.
What contrivance? Letting them be created? That's not a contrivance, that's in character.
They don't also have to be resolved immediately the way they are in the Cell arc, you say there's a barrage of questions asked and you're right and then five seconds later they're all answered. It makes characters like Cell, who is pragmatic in his Imperfect Form, look like a moron when he's giving Piccolo his whole life story and it also gives the good guys an edge when a story is always more interesting when the good guys are preassured.
But the big question wasn't answered until Cell arrived, which took time. There's no one way to write a mystery. Sure, the massive exposition dump was lazy, but that doesn't mean you're right about how to structure a mystery. The questions are asked, then answered, new ones posed then answered, then newer ones posed. That's as valid as posing a question and then drawing out the answer for 20 episodes.
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:43 am

No it doesn't matter how strong the characters are, if the story is terrible, then it is the authors fault not the characters

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:46 am

ABED wrote:
Don't think about how Cell was capable of creating several smaller versions of himself equal to Trunks, and Vegeta in strength. AN ABILITY NEVER FORE SHADOWED.
He has Piccolo's cells.
Don't Comprehend the fact that Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan two (never foreshadowed)
Gohan has a seemingly endless well of potential, and while I find it annoying, that still constitutes a set up.
Don't think about how Cell instantly learn instant transmission from seeing goku use it
Goku learned the Kamehameha after having watched it once.
Don't think about how the future timeline collapses the moment you put a modicum of thought into it, and the whole reason why it exists is because Toriyama wanted a plot similar to Terminator, but never stopped to think how that plot just collapses in the face of TWO whole sets of dragon balls, Baba, the fact that King Kai can telepathically locate, and contact the namekians on new namek to revive the fighters, or have Goku, and the gang train on King kai's then destroy the androids when its time.
Time travel plots ALWAYS fall apart upon closer examination, even The Terminator. And should Kaio intervene every time a planet faces a crisis?
Huh thanks for clearing those points up, except the Kaio part still makes no fucking sense, and the future time line shouldn't exist, there's too many second chances

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:14 am

ABED wrote:
Don't think about how Cell was capable of creating several smaller versions of himself equal to Trunks, and Vegeta in strength. AN ABILITY NEVER FORE SHADOWED.
He has Piccolo's cells.

Good point
Don't Comprehend the fact that Gohan unlocked Super Saiyan two (never foreshadowed)
Gohan has a seemingly endless well of potential, and while I find it annoying, that still constitutes a set up.
Don't think about how Cell instantly learn instant transmission from seeing goku use it
Goku learned the Kamehameha after having watched it once.

Falls apart when you remember the fact that it took ages for Goku to learn the instant transmission
Don't think about how the future timeline collapses the moment you put a modicum of thought into it, and the whole reason why it exists is because Toriyama wanted a plot similar to Terminator, but never stopped to think how that plot just collapses in the face of TWO whole sets of dragon balls, Baba, the fact that King Kai can telepathically locate, and contact the namekians on new namek to revive the fighters, or have Goku, and the gang train on King kai's then destroy the androids when its time.
Time travel plots ALWAYS fall apart upon closer examination, even The Terminator. And should Kaio intervene every time a planet faces a crisis?
No, the future timeline falls apart when you realize that there are too many outs for the cast, Oh noes Goku is dead, Baba Lol, oh noes the dragon balls are gone??? Namek Lol, Oh Noes can't get to namek, Kaio Lol, Or Goku can get Baba to grant him an extra day, instant transmission to namek or whatever, Androids to strong!!! Goku, and Gang can train to get stronger Lol!!!1!!.

The whole thing just falls apart when you think about it for a few seconds

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:27 am

No, the future timeline falls apart when you realize that there are too many outs for the cast, Oh noes Goku is dead, Baba Lol, oh noes the dragon balls are gone??? Namek Lol, Oh Noes can't get to namek, Kaio Lol, Or Goku can get Baba to grant him an extra day, instant transmission to namek or whatever, Androids to strong!!! Goku, and Gang can train to get stronger Lol!!!1!!.

The whole thing just falls apart when you think about it for a few seconds
What does Baba have to do with Goku dying of a heart virus? She can't do anything. The Z Team doesn't know where New Namek is. The extra day thing was after a few years in the afterlife.
Falls apart when you remember the fact that it took ages for Goku to learn the instant transmission
He learned it from aliens and we don't know if they speak his language, so no it doesn't fall apart. It took Muten Roshi 50 years to figure out the Kamehameha. Some people's learning curve is much steeper.
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Nejishiki » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:25 am

Gog wrote:Huh thanks for clearing those points up, except the Kaio part still makes no fucking sense, and the future time line shouldn't exist, there's too many second chances
In the original story, Kaio has only ever gone out of his way to help his prized student, Goku. With the exception of the movies & Dragon Ball GT, no portrayal exists where Kaio feels the need to continually interfere with Earth's affairs. Goku is practically the one person he continues to advise. In reality, he claims that he can't be bothered to keep an eye on Earth at all times what with other planets he's required to observe. I feel as if the series has given legitimate in-universe, character, and narrative reasons for why the alternate future exists. I understand we want our protagonists to always succeed but it's not always possible to maintain a neat bow. The context of its events & the hyperbole behind the tale are two, separate matters. The alternate present version of the characters made it apparent that they don't regret the consequences of the road they walk.

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:41 pm

Y'know, about Cell's ability to pop out Cell Juniors being due to his Piccolo cells....does Cell have biological data from Daimao? Because Junior can't do that. The spitting out offspring is a Dragon Clan ability; Warrior class Namekians can't do it.

I've always attributed the ability to the Piccolo cells as well, but now that I think on it, he shouldn't be able to with those. Maybe that's how the Cold family reproduces? Or maybe it comes from the insect genes he seems to have.
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:31 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Y'know, about Cell's ability to pop out Cell Juniors being due to his Piccolo cells....does Cell have biological data from Daimao? Because Junior can't do that. The spitting out offspring is a Dragon Clan ability; Warrior class Namekians can't do it.

I've always attributed the ability to the Piccolo cells as well, but now that I think on it, he shouldn't be able to with those. Maybe that's how the Cold family reproduces? Or maybe it comes from the insect genes he seems to have.
Piccolo IS the son of Daimao and we don't know that he doesn't have that ability, we just know that he didn't use it. And if I recall, the Dragon Clan makes Dragon Balls. It was neither stated that they couldn't have offspring or be warriors. Kami was a warrior and could create Dragon Balls.
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Nejishiki » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:52 am

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Y'know, about Cell's ability to pop out Cell Juniors being due to his Piccolo cells....does Cell have biological data from Daimao? Because Junior can't do that. The spitting out offspring is a Dragon Clan ability; Warrior class Namekians can't do it.
Gero's spies likely began their work after Bora was revived. That should cover the data for both Piccolo since Gero never makes a distinction between them.
ABED wrote:Piccolo IS the son of Daimao and we don't know that he doesn't have that ability, we just know that he didn't use it. And if I recall, the Dragon Clan makes Dragon Balls. It was neither stated that they couldn't have offspring or be warriors. Kami was a warrior and could create Dragon Balls.
Well, the Namek arc establishes two types of Namekian. With Piccolo reborn as a Warrior-type breed, reproduction was out of his hands (& mouth). You're still correct about the Dragon Clan Namekian: Both God & The Great Demon King shared classes since the former created Dragon Balls. I think you're misinterpreting his phrasing though. All Namekian have the ability to train & battle. It's just apparent that Warrior-types are adept at it what with being born naturally powerful. There's nothing wrong with God training in martial arts if you consider that.

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:48 am

Well, the Namek arc establishes two types of Namekian. With Piccolo reborn as a Warrior-type breed, reproduction was out of his hands (& mouth). You're still correct about the Dragon Clan Namekian: Both God & The Great Demon King shared classes since the former created Dragon Balls. I think you're misinterpreting his phrasing though. All Namekian have the ability to train & battle. It's just apparent that Warrior-types are adept at it what with being born naturally powerful. There's nothing wrong with God training in martial arts if you consider that.
I think the two clans are Warriors and Healers. Kami can fight and create Dragon Balls but he couldn't heal. Dende can make Dragon Balls and heal but isn't adept at fighting.
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Zeru14 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:40 pm

Nejishiki wrote:
Gog wrote:Huh thanks for clearing those points up, except the Kaio part still makes no fucking sense, and the future time line shouldn't exist, there's too many second chances
In the original story, Kaio has only ever gone out of his way to help his prized student, Goku. With the exception of the movies & Dragon Ball GT, no portrayal exists where Kaio feels the need to continually interfere with Earth's affairs. Goku is practically the one person he continues to advise. In reality, he claims that he can't be bothered to keep an eye on Earth at all times what with other planets he's required to observe. I feel as if the series has given legitimate in-universe, character, and narrative reasons for why the alternate future exists. I understand we want our protagonists to always succeed but it's not always possible to maintain a neat bow. The context of its events & the hyperbole behind the tale are two, separate matters. The alternate present version of the characters made it apparent that they don't regret the consequences of the road they walk.
I'm gonna have to agree with those who say the the original version of the future where things go so far south with no turnaround, makes no sense, given previously established factors from past arcs. In the Android Saga, Fortuneteller Baba isn't seen or mentioned at all, does she die in the original future, seems unlikely given that she can travel between realms(and is a big chicken), so yeah like with Grandpa Gohan she could've brought Goku back for a day to provide assistance(which she does in the Supersonic Warriors). King Kai is another factor, while of course he doesn't watch whats going on Earth all the time and there is no way for anyone on Earth to contact him, all that would have to happen is that the recently dead Z-Warriors could travel down Snake Way again and inform him of events and ask for his help, in contacting New Namek to use their Dragonballs, this didn't happen for no explained reason, what did King Kai say no, how OOC would that be after the Saiyan and Frieza Sagas, did none of Warriors think of this(not even Piccolo or Gohan) or did they just want to stay dead leaving Gohan and later Trunks alone. So yeah Toriyama wanted to tell a bad future time travel story, but had to throw out or just ignore previously established factors in his own canon(that being Baba, King Kai, Namek Dragonballs) to make it work.

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Nejishiki » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:01 am

Zeru14 wrote:I'm gonna have to agree with those who say the the original version of the future where things go so far south with no turnaround, makes no sense, given previously established factors from past arcs. In the Android Saga, Fortuneteller Baba isn't seen or mentioned at all, does she die in the original future, seems unlikely given that she can travel between realms(and is a big chicken), so yeah like with Grandpa Gohan she could've brought Goku back for a day to provide assistance(which she does in the Supersonic Warriors). King Kai is another factor, while of course he doesn't watch whats going on Earth all the time and there is no way for anyone on Earth to contact him, all that would have to happen is that the recently dead Z-Warriors could travel down Snake Way again and inform him of events and ask for his help, in contacting New Namek to use their Dragonballs, this didn't happen for no explained reason, what did King Kai say no, how OOC would that be after the Saiyan and Frieza Sagas, did none of Warriors think of this(not even Piccolo or Gohan) or did they just want to stay dead leaving Gohan and later Trunks alone. So yeah Toriyama wanted to tell a bad future time travel story, but had to throw out or just ignore previously established factors in his own canon(that being Baba, King Kai, Namek Dragonballs) to make it work.
Concerning the fortuneteller, she has allowed the dead to walk among the living for these reasons: Allowing Gohan proper closure with Goku, allowing Goku to participate in one, final Tenkaichi Budoukai with his friends & family, and Enma requesting Vegeta to hold off Boo. The known exception to this pattern is when she calls warriors in to be one of her five fighters. She's not known to go out of her way to call in deceased individuals who haven't already requested her services. I don't even think Turtle Hermit, who she's related to, asks her of any favors. It seems established that she isn't concerned with that, making it a consistent character trait. With that in mind, there's nothing particularly off about her not calling Goku to the field (for a single day, I might add). It's not as if she did anything similar with previous or future threats. Humanity is typically left to deal with itself outside of forces threatening existence (refer to Enma's request).

Dragon Team, before the Artificial Humans arc properly begins, agree to challenge themselves & fight instead of preventing their alternate fates. The characters acknowledge the possibility that they may die "again". Despite this, they aren't shaken by that thought. They find no shame in dying from battle as martial artists. They've made their peace before the first punch is thrown & believe they can overcome what happened in another world, completely up to the task thanks to Future Trunks' warning.

They shared the same behavior against the Saiyans. Knowing Chiaotzu wouldn't be revived, Tenshinhan resolved to go all out to defeat Nappa. He had no intention of coming back to followup on Vegeta. Yamcha was absentminded towards everyone reviving them in the first place. No one used Kaio to check on Earth's status until Goku was contacted during his Namek trip (They're surprised he can do this!). Keep in mind that they were appearing one after another yet all of them neglected to see what Earth & its inhabitants were doing. They decided to immediately seek training to surpass Goku should they meet him again. What's odd with that in comparison to Future Trunks' era? When they're alive, they're open to avenging others. When dead, they consider the case closed. In general, the warriors don't seem to have a problem with death so why would they in another timeline? Taking it further, Goku trained in Heaven for seven years, completely ignorant of what was going on on Earth. It's not a matter of "leaving anyone alone", the characters simply moved on & pursued other goals & ventures in death. Is this not all in-character?

Finally, with New Namek, there's no reliable transportation, the coordinates are unknown, and the planet itself exists out of reach from its old sector, vastly further than where the destroyed Namek was located. With managing time between building a suitable spaceship from scratch & wandering through space for a long time, Bluma considered it easier to go back into the past. The time machine itself was a struggle to build, if you recall. The material for any project was difficult to configure. The explanations are self-provided through its characters & general circumstance instead of logic being thrown out to support a story. As occasionally true in dramatic scenarios, sometimes things just go wrong no matter how capable people are.

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by emperior » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:18 am

New Namek is supposed to be EXTREMELY difficult to find as Freezer's army still hadn't found it in RoF
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:51 am

emperior wrote:New Namek is supposed to be EXTREMELY difficult to find as Freezer's army still hadn't found it in RoF
No, Goku learnt instant transmission, he can ask Kaio to locate it for him, or he could go teleport to Baba, ask her for a day, go teleport to namek, revive everyone. Train and destroy the androids.

The future timeline just falls apart. It just fulls apart, and shows how much thought Akira Toriyama put into the cell, and android arc.

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by emperior » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:16 am

Gog wrote:
emperior wrote:New Namek is supposed to be EXTREMELY difficult to find as Freezer's army still hadn't found it in RoF
No, Goku learnt instant transmission, he can ask Kaio to locate it for him, or he could go teleport to Baba, ask her for a day, go teleport to namek, revive everyone. Train and destroy the androids.

The future timeline just falls apart. It just fulls apart, and shows how much thought Akira Toriyama put into the cell, and android arc.
Probably Goku didn't keep his body, or he asked to help but wasn't allowed to. It's a easy thing to explain, and in Black arc they never try to guess if Black is actually Future Goku/someone who stole his body, that means Future Z Warriors are in heaven and probably stripped of their power/waiting to be reincarnated
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:20 am

emperior wrote:
Gog wrote:
emperior wrote:New Namek is supposed to be EXTREMELY difficult to find as Freezer's army still hadn't found it in RoF
No, Goku learnt instant transmission, he can ask Kaio to locate it for him, or he could go teleport to Baba, ask her for a day, go teleport to namek, revive everyone. Train and destroy the androids.

The future timeline just falls apart. It just fulls apart, and shows how much thought Akira Toriyama put into the cell, and android arc.
Probably Goku didn't keep his body, or he asked to help but wasn't allowed to. It's a easy thing to explain, and in Black arc they never try to guess if Black is actually Future Goku/someone who stole his body, that means Future Z Warriors are in heaven and probably stripped of their power/waiting to be reincarnated
No, it is out right stated that Goku is allowed to keep his body, its the same with people who are strong and good. Your argument just falls apart, Future Goku was probably just training at Kaio's, he's proably as strong as super Saiyan two Gohan

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by emperior » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:24 am

Gog wrote:
emperior wrote:
Gog wrote:
No, Goku learnt instant transmission, he can ask Kaio to locate it for him, or he could go teleport to Baba, ask her for a day, go teleport to namek, revive everyone. Train and destroy the androids.

The future timeline just falls apart. It just fulls apart, and shows how much thought Akira Toriyama put into the cell, and android arc.
Probably Goku didn't keep his body, or he asked to help but wasn't allowed to. It's a easy thing to explain, and in Black arc they never try to guess if Black is actually Future Goku/someone who stole his body, that means Future Z Warriors are in heaven and probably stripped of their power/waiting to be reincarnated
No, it is out right stated that Goku is allowed to keep his body, its the same with people who are strong and good. Your argument just falls apart, Future Goku was probably just training at Kaio's, he's proably as strong as super Saiyan two Gohan
If he kept his body, the most plausible explanation is that he trained with King Kai and didn't give a fuck about Earth as he did during the 7 years in the main timeline.
Maybe he didn't check because he died 6 months before the androids showed up and so thought the world was at peace.
It could also be retconned to "people who die of natural causes go straight to heaven"
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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:33 am

emperior wrote:
Gog wrote:
emperior wrote:
Probably Goku didn't keep his body, or he asked to help but wasn't allowed to. It's a easy thing to explain, and in Black arc they never try to guess if Black is actually Future Goku/someone who stole his body, that means Future Z Warriors are in heaven and probably stripped of their power/waiting to be reincarnated
No, it is out right stated that Goku is allowed to keep his body, its the same with people who are strong and good. Your argument just falls apart, Future Goku was probably just training at Kaio's, he's proably as strong as super Saiyan two Gohan
If he kept his body, the most plausible explanation is that he trained with King Kai and didn't give a fuck about Earth as he did during the 7 years in the main timeline.
Maybe he didn't check because he died 6 months before the androids showed up and so thought the world was at peace.
It could also be retconned to "people who die of natural causes go straight to heaven"
Then Goku is the real Villain in the android arc, for not actually doing his fucking job of defending earth, hurting his wife, hurting his son, hurting everyone by allowing the androids to run around. Fuck Future Goku if he didn't give a fuck about earth.
If there is a retcon to it, I will scream.

In my opinion the most plausible explanation for it, is that other world was obscured by plot clouds, that basically cut the other world from the living world, it was sent by the malicious god Toriyama to ensure everything went to his vile and evil plans

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Re: Did Toriyama limit himself as he strengthened the characters?

Post by Gog » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:37 am

ekrolo2 wrote: Imperfect Cell doesn't even have 5 chapters of screen time before he tells Piccolo his origins, his hopes, his dreams, his secret racist opinions, his myspace account info
Oh my god I'm dying, how do you do it?

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