Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by Gog » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:49 pm

ABED wrote:But the story is inconsistent, so you are picking and choosing the facts when making a moral evaluation of a character.
I'm not picking and choosing the facts, I'm just using what we've seen in the buu saga. You've been using the story as an excuse, for Goku's shitty behavior. I've gone out of my way to use what we've seen in the story.
ABED wrote:Which is my point. He's written as doing both and yet you are choosing to ignore a giant plot hole even when making an evaluation of a character. When judging a person or a character you have to take in ALL the facts.
Then, am I suppose to say that Goku is only as bad as he is because Toriyama forgot? That may be a good reason. But seriously Goku showed that he could stop Buu, he nearly did it. But instead he chose to let two 11 year old children save the world.
ABED wrote:I think Rereboy makes a good point. Goku's not a grounded character, so I see little reason to hold a strong opinion about his ethics.
But, I do, because Goku should be in Jail for what he's done

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:40 pm

Gog wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:Threatening to blast the Supreme Kai is pretty assholish. He's lucky he wasn't stripped of his body and his soul sent to hell.
Oh, I forgot about that. Man I would expect Vegeta would do that. but Goku?!? His super version is looking pretty good know
Threatening the purple fuck is a good thing. He deserves to die for his stupidity.

Also, Goku is done some pretty immoral things in Super like refusing to work together with Vegeta to beat Freeza even when their lives depended on it and putting a hit on himself without regard to his loved ones. There's also him taking advantage of King Kai.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by Gog » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:43 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Gog wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:Threatening to blast the Supreme Kai is pretty assholish. He's lucky he wasn't stripped of his body and his soul sent to hell.
Oh, I forgot about that. Man I would expect Vegeta would do that. but Goku?!? His super version is looking pretty good know
Threatening the purple fuck is a good thing. He deserves to die for his stupidity.

Also, Goku is done some pretty immoral things in Super like refusing to work together with Vegeta to beat Freeza even when their lives depended on it and putting a hit on himself without regard to his loved ones. There's also him taking advantage of King Kai.
Okay first off racist, second off stop beating your hate boner to the sight of the little guy. Its creepy. It wasn't the Shin's fault that he was surrounded by some battle hungry saiyans, ready to sate their hate boners, its not his fault that it all went out of control. It was Goku, and Vegeta's fault. Honestly if they had just listened to him Buu would never have been revived

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:57 pm

Gog wrote: Okay first off racist, second off stop beating your hate boner to the sight of the little guy. Its creepy. It wasn't the Shin's fault that he was surrounded by some battle hungry saiyans, ready to sate their hate boners, its not his fault that it all went out of control. It was Goku, and Vegeta's fault. Honestly if they had just listened to him Buu would never have been revived
Well it is his fault for not knowing. He's the fucking overseer of the entire universe so it'd be smart to keep a careful way on Earth... y'know the planet he knew well was evolving and was were he kept the Majin Boo egg at? For fuck's sake how can he know about Freeza to the point he can use him as a measuring stick but not know jackshit about the slaves he made do his dirty work?!

If he had did his job like he was supposed to then none of shit would've escalated to such a proportions. That's like saying the employer is not at fault for hiring a feral person who messed up the business.

Besides, Goku and Vegeta's fight was inevitable. It's either they fight or Vegeta would just continue killing more people.

BTW I can't be racist to a race that doesn't even exist. :P
Last edited by DBZAOTA482 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:01 pm

Gog wrote:
ABED wrote:But the story is inconsistent, so you are picking and choosing the facts when making a moral evaluation of a character.
I'm not picking and choosing the facts, I'm just using what we've seen in the buu saga. You've been using the story as an excuse, for Goku's shitty behavior. I've gone out of my way to use what we've seen in the story.
ABED wrote:Which is my point. He's written as doing both and yet you are choosing to ignore a giant plot hole even when making an evaluation of a character. When judging a person or a character you have to take in ALL the facts.
Then, am I suppose to say that Goku is only as bad as he is because Toriyama forgot? That may be a good reason. But seriously Goku showed that he could stop Buu, he nearly did it. But instead he chose to let two 11 year old children save the world.
ABED wrote:I think Rereboy makes a good point. Goku's not a grounded character, so I see little reason to hold a strong opinion about his ethics.
But, I do, because Goku should be in Jail for what he's done
Good luck finding a jail that can hold him and you are absolutely picking and choosing facts. I am using the story because you can't separate the two in this case. You haven't gone out the way for anything. You haven't acknowledged that you've seen both and they are inconsistency. Goku showed that he could stop Buu, but we also saw that he COULD NOT stop Buu, otherwise he would've defeated Vegeta and wouldn't have lied to Piccolo.
Also, Goku is done some pretty immoral things in Super like refusing to work together with Vegeta to beat Freeza even when their lives depended on it
His life didn't depend on him working with Freeza to defeat Vegeta. Even if they had, Freeza still could've blown up the planet when things went south. I've seen the movie and while Goku seemed to be struggling at the beginning, he ultimately would've won because of Freeza's mistake.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by Gog » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:54 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Well it is his fault for not knowing. He's the fucking overseer of the entire universe so it'd be smart to keep a careful way on Earth... y'know the planet he knew well was evolving and was were he kept the Majin Boo egg at? For fuck's sake how can he know about Freeza to the point he can use him as a measuring stick but not know jackshit about the slaves he made do his dirty work?!
Why would he watch earth, you mean the planet filled with evolving apes, that had no possible way to actually open Majin Buu? Or the fact that he believed Babbidi was dead. You know how he could know Freeza and use him as a measuring stick, and not Babidi's slaves, because Freeza was the emporer of the universe. The top shit, Babidi's little slaves, were proably some weak little troglyodtes, that nobody knew or cared about, who were lucky that Bibbidi would spray paint the magical word on him.
DBZAOTA482 wrote: If he had did his job like he was supposed to then none of shit would've escalated to such a proportions. That's like saying the employer is not at fault for hiring a feral person who messed up the business.
Except as explained in dragon ball super, a kaio shin's job is to observe the universe.
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Besides, Goku and Vegeta's fight was inevitable. It's either they fight or Vegeta would just continue killing more people.
Exactly, it wasn't the Kaio shin's fault for why shit the fan, it was Goku and Vegeta's battle boners
DBZAOTA482 wrote: BTW I can't be racist to a race that doesn't even exist. :P
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Baby your just jealous of his looks. :D

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by rereboy » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:28 am

Gog wrote:But, I do, because Goku should be in Jail for what he's done
If you apply actual real world logic and judgment, sure. As would Roshi (sexual harassment) or any other pervert anime character. As would any of "The Three Stooges" (assault and murder attempt) or any other character who has physically assaulted someone.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by Gog » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:31 am

rereboy wrote:
Gog wrote:But, I do, because Goku should be in Jail for what he's done
If you apply actual real world logic and judgment, sure. As would Roshi (sexual harassment) or any other pervert anime character. As would any of "The Three Stooges" (assault and murder attempt) or any other character who has physically assaulted someone.
Yeah, yeah, I know its just such a shame that if they tried to arrest them, Goku would be knocking some heads around. Heck Roshi would be too.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:12 am

I'm not sure why we are using out of universe reasons to excuse in universe plot. In the Buu example Goku absolutely shouldn't have risked lives and the universe over Vegeta, however I took it as less of Goku wanting to fight and more of him looking for redemption for Vegeta.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:17 am

TheMikado wrote:I'm not sure why we are using out of universe reasons to excuse in universe plot. In the Buu example Goku absolutely shouldn't have risked lives and the universe over Vegeta, however I took it as less of Goku wanting to fight and more of him looking for redemption for Vegeta.
When you have an plot hole, then yes, you should absolutely apply out of universe reasons when the in-universe reasons make no sense as a result.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:37 am

ABED wrote:
TheMikado wrote:I'm not sure why we are using out of universe reasons to excuse in universe plot. In the Buu example Goku absolutely shouldn't have risked lives and the universe over Vegeta, however I took it as less of Goku wanting to fight and more of him looking for redemption for Vegeta.
When you have an plot hole, then yes, you should absolutely apply out of universe reasons when the in-universe reasons make no sense as a result.
What plot hole? The author gave an in universe explanation regardless of the circumstances outside of that universe the author gave us explanations for what he wanted the story to portray. It can be a cop out, poor writing, etc. but it's what the author decided was the reasoning in the context of the story.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:45 am

TheMikado wrote:
ABED wrote:
TheMikado wrote:I'm not sure why we are using out of universe reasons to excuse in universe plot. In the Buu example Goku absolutely shouldn't have risked lives and the universe over Vegeta, however I took it as less of Goku wanting to fight and more of him looking for redemption for Vegeta.
When you have an plot hole, then yes, you should absolutely apply out of universe reasons when the in-universe reasons make no sense as a result.
What plot hole? The author gave an in universe explanation regardless of the circumstances outside of that universe the author gave us explanations for what he wanted the story to portray. It can be a cop out, poor writing, etc. but it's what the author decided was the reasoning in the context of the story.
Not a good explanation, not one that is consistent with Goku's character. What the author decides isn't relevant when his story messes with characterization in order to facilitate the plot, ergo you can't judge a character's morality if the character is acting out of character. When has Goku lied like that before? What did he have to gain? I don't recall him giving a reason why he fought Vegeta and didn't go Super Saiyan 3 if he could have. We know the BS reason why he didn't finish off Buu even though he clearly said to Piccolo that he couldn't and even if he could, he shouldn't. Why would Goku fight Vegeta and not go full power? Goku likes a challenge and if he had Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta wouldn't have been a challenge.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by TheMikado » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:05 am

If the author owns the character and decides that the character is going to act differently that would make those actions part of the characters characterization. For better or for worse every action Toriyama has had Goku take is part of his overall character. There's lots I don't like about Vegeta and Goku in BoG and especially Super but I have to accept these as part of the character now. I don't like it at all but that's how Toriyama wants to portray them and he has every right to do that.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by rereboy » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:08 am

TheMikado wrote:I'm not sure why we are using out of universe reasons to excuse in universe plot. In the Buu example Goku absolutely shouldn't have risked lives and the universe over Vegeta, however I took it as less of Goku wanting to fight and more of him looking for redemption for Vegeta.
Some things can only be justified via comparison with reality. "The Three Stooges" is a perfect example of this because their actions can only be justified through a non-serious outlook, meaning that it's basically impossible to look at it seriously, think of its likely and serious consequences and still think that the "The Three Stooges" still work and achieve its objectives, namely being an entertaining, no-worries, fun and humorous show. In Dragon Ball, since it distances itself very clearly from reality, not just in world-building and plot, but also characters, this is also very relevant and a great deal of Goku's character and actions should be viewed with this context in mind. Of course, this doesn't mean that there aren't certain things that can or should be considered inconsistencies regarding characters like Goku or even plotholes, but sometimes that too can be explained with out of universe reasons.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:15 am

TheMikado wrote:If the author owns the character and decides that the character is going to act differently that would make those actions part of the characters characterization. For better or for worse every action Toriyama has had Goku take is part of his overall character. There's lots I don't like about Vegeta and Goku in BoG and especially Super but I have to accept these as part of the character now. I don't like it at all but that's how Toriyama wants to portray them and he has every right to do that.
But he has to remain consistent with his character. Characters can change, but there has to be a reason for that change or it's just bad writing. The difference between Goku and Vegeta is that Vegeta was changing and there were reasons for his change over time. He made shifts, but you saw the steps and the reasons for it. It was his journey. Goku was the same for years and now he starts lying? Doesn't make sense. Authors can't just write a character for years, do something radically different and say "It's just part of his character." Toriyama didn't write it to be part of Goku's character, he wrote it to get out of a problem with his plot. He has every right to write badly, doesn't mean he should.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:45 am

Man, Goku's a dick lol

But honestly, about him threatening Kaioshin, I don't really know if he would blast the little purple guy. I don't think he'd follow through.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:56 pm

My big question is other than making a list, why does this matter? If he's interesting, isn't that what matters?
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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by Bansho64 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:18 pm

ABED wrote:If he's interesting, isn't that what matters?
Nah, that's not how I personally see it. A character can be interesting all it wants, but I'm not gonna ignore the baggage if I think he or she has some. Maybe that's not the case for you, but it's a whole different ballpark for me.

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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:52 pm

Bansho64 wrote:
ABED wrote:If he's interesting, isn't that what matters?
Nah, that's not how I personally see it. A character can be interesting all it wants, but I'm not gonna ignore the baggage if I think he or she has some. Maybe that's not the case for you, but it's a whole different ballpark for me.
Walter White is a TERRIBLE human being but he's fascinating to watch.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Immoral things that Goku has done so far in the series.

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:28 pm

Gog wrote:Why would he watch earth, you mean the planet filled with evolving apes, that had no possible way to actually open Majin Buu? Or the fact that he believed Babbidi was dead. You know how he could know Freeza and use him as a measuring stick, and not Babidi's slaves, because Freeza was the emporer of the universe. The top shit, Babidi's little slaves, were proably some weak little troglyodtes, that nobody knew or cared about, who were lucky that Bibbidi would spray paint the magical word on him.
Kaioshin was afraid of the slightest shock resurrecting Majin Boo... which an earthquake could do. Not to mention Earth is the playaround for intergalactic superpowered beings and is subject to many natural disasters.

Also, I'm talking about the Saiyans.
Except as explained in dragon ball super, a kaio shin's job is to observe the universe.
I know, but he sure did a shitty job at it (he didn't even know Babidi had brainwashed Dabura). If he actually did his job as overseer then he would've known about the Saiyans, dragon balls, mortals that were stronger than him, and taken percussion to whom can join his party so he would know bringing the clearly impure Prince of all fuck-ups was a bad idea.
Exactly, it wasn't the Kaio shin's fault for why shit the fan, it was Goku and Vegeta's battle boners
It is his fault. The plan failed because the Saiyans didn't act the way he expected but the only reason his "plan" came close to succeeding in the first place is because the Saiyans were far more powerful than he expected. Deliberately allowing Spopovich and Yamu to steal Gohan's energy (which fueled almost half the energy needed to revive Majin Boo is beyond stupid plus it takes him all the way from there to his ass-beating for him to realize he was out of his league.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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